Mandy Kaplan:
Hello, everybody, and welcome to Make Me a Nerd. I’m Mandy Kaplan, a mainstream mom whose mission it is to explore the world of nerd culture that I’ve been missing out on and afraid of my whole life. If you’re new to the podcast, this is how it works. I bring on someone who is passionate and nerdy about something, and they see if they can recruit me to that fandom. And my guest today reached out, having heard of this podcast, wanted to come and see if he could make me a nerd. It is author Rick London. Welcome to the podcast.

Rick London:
Thank you, Mandy. Thank you. I’m so glad to be here. It’s an honor. Thank you.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, I’m honored. In my intro I always say the stuff I’ve been missing out on and afraid of. And we watched Alien: Earth, which is a series from the Alien world, which I have lots of questions about. But there’s a reason I’m afraid of stuff like this. This show is so scary. The creatures are so horrifying. My most common observation and note was the dripping. There’s so much liquid and goo dripping at all times in the show.

Rick London:
Oh yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
It’s hard to look at.

Rick London:
They really — I was really impressed with the show. There was a lot of chatter about it before it came out, because people love — there’s so many fans of that Alien franchise. I’m one of them. And there was a lot of chatter that it’s going to really be good. And then I read about it. Supposedly they spent about 250 million for a TV series. Could you believe that?

Mandy Kaplan:
I can see it.

Rick London:
About 250 million on eight episodes, and they really outdid themselves, I believe, with everything they did.

Mandy Kaplan:
Mm-hmm.

Rick London:
And then bringing in these new creatures that are just — oh my god, they’re lethal. They’re just — you’re squirming.

Even people — it’s not just the xenomorph from Alien, it’s the other creatures that are even deadlier, to me.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah. The listeners can’t see me, but I don’t know how I’m going to do a podcast. I keep wanting to go — I’m squirming. They were so gross.

Okay. So you’re a big fan of the Alien franchise, which is another thing. Right before we pressed record, I was telling you there are just blind spots in my viewing — The Godfather and Psycho — and that’s what this podcast is. It’s just so satisfying to catch up and see all of these things. So Alien is definitely one of those things. Except one of my first episodes was Aliens. That’s the second one, right?

Rick London:
I love that one, yeah. That’s the Sigourney Weaver — I love that. Well, she’s in all of ’em, but that’s the one where they go back and they have to fight a multitude of xenomorphs. And yeah, I love that one too. But it started with Alien, right? The one — it’s 1979.

Mandy Kaplan:
I didn’t see that one, but I saw the second one because my guest preferred the second one and chose it, and I do whatever my guests tell me. Where does this fit in the Alien world? Because they mention Weyland-Yutani.

Rick London:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
And — fun fact — I was sitting next to my husband watching it, and he was confused. And I said, honey, Weyland-Yutani, that’s from Aliens, the corporation. And we call that nerd progress in my line of work. I was so proud of myself that I was explaining it to him from having seen it. Is this far in the future?

Rick London:
Well, no. So it takes place in — let me see, is it 2120? Yeah, 2120. So the very first movie, the Alien one from 1979, I believe that takes place in 2122.

Mandy Kaplan:
This is prequel stuff? Oh.

Rick London:
So what I really like about this Alien: Earth — it kind of paid homage. They went back to Alien, all the sets. If you look at the sets — before I go any further, when you get a chance, Mandy, see the original. You’ve got to see Alien.

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay.

Rick London:
You think you’re squirming now. Wait till you see — I’m not going to mention it to you, but there’s one scene that’s like the most classic scene in cinematic history. One of the most classic scenes. You’ve got to see it. Everybody’s been talking about it since it came out.

And it’s a brilliant concoction, I feel — the script that they came up with. This creature who comes out small, and then he grows into like this seven-, eight-foot monster with this tail. He’s like a bug, right? He’s like a giant bug.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, I know, they’re all bugs.

Rick London:
He can crawl up anything.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh.

Rick London:
Yeah. But he has that tongue that comes out. Because he has that elongated head, he needs to shoot out his tongue with a —

Mandy Kaplan:
This is the original you’re talking about?

Rick London:
All of them.

Mandy Kaplan:
In all of them.

Rick London:
If you watch Alien: Earth —

Mandy Kaplan:
So the big bad guy. Okay, yeah.

Rick London:
He has that tongue, and then the tongue has the teeth. It has its own set of jaws.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.

Rick London:
And then acid for blood. Oh my god, that’s just brilliant. So I recommend go back and watch the very first one, and that’ll set you up for the whole thing, and you’ll be like, oh my god, where’d they come up with this? It’s a brilliant concoction.

It’s funny. I was listening to one of your podcasts, and a gentleman mentioned Jaws. Two of the greatest, most horrific creatures of all time. Jaws, 1975 — the shark that really exists in our world.

Mandy Kaplan:
Mm-hmm. Right.

Rick London:
And then this one, 1979.

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay.

Rick London:
Two of the — yeah, in the seventies.

Mandy Kaplan:
Well, Alien: Earth, the series, is Noah Hawley, who I am a fan of from Fargo.

Rick London:
Mm-hmm.

Mandy Kaplan:
He is a very visionary, smart — he creates worlds rather than just stories. He’s a pro at this. He did Legion, which was what I did my very first episode of Make Me a Nerd about.

Rick London:
Wow.

Mandy Kaplan:
So if everyone wants to hear how this journey began with Noah Hawley — and here we are almost two years later doing Noah Hawley.

He’s such a talent, and he builds these worlds in such a way that you’re dropped in and you feel like you’re living in them. But I have a question about the tech and the sets. They look very 1980s.

Rick London:
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Mandy Kaplan:
And it’s almost dot matrix, the way the computer screens look. Is that because the original movie was with that tech?

Rick London:
Yeah, that’s what’s beautiful about it. So you’ll see the similarity when you see the first movie. Again, I believe they paid homage — is it pronounced homage? I think it’s pronounced homage, I believe — to the first movie. Yeah, all the sets looked just like the ship in the first movie. Claustrophobic, almost like 20th century technology.

Mandy Kaplan:
It’s what they thought the future would look like.

Rick London:
Yeah, exactly.

Mandy Kaplan:
In 1980. Yeah, okay.

Rick London:
Exactly.

Mandy Kaplan:
That makes a lot of sense, because a lot of this technology felt very dated, but that makes sense now.

Rick London:
Yeah, because in ’79 they didn’t have CGI, they didn’t have AI, so everything was keyboard. And I like that they kept it to that. They went back to that.

And before I go further — Noah Hawley, I agree with you.

Mandy Kaplan:
Huh?

Rick London:
What a talent, right?

Mandy Kaplan:
Yes.

Rick London:
I mean, this whole setup with this production — wow, they got the most talented people to get this story going.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, absolutely.

Rick London:
They went all out. That 250 million was well spent, and the series did great. And yeah, the sets were all made. A lot of them were handmade.

They used animatronics, they used puppets, they even had a gentleman go back in the alien suit. Everything was done almost like it was 1979.

Mandy Kaplan:
I mean, their liquid budget alone, for all of the drooling — that had to be 200 million.

Rick London:
And —

Mandy Kaplan:
The dripping and the drooling and the oozing. And the sound design of all of those things was so vivid that you could hear the — oh, Rick.

Rick London:
That was the goal.

Mandy Kaplan:
Woo.

Rick London:
It’s the goal. It’s the same setup as the first movies — to get you on edge.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.

Rick London:
Even at home. Because it was on FX.

Mandy Kaplan:
But it’s immersive, yeah.

Rick London:
Even at home you couldn’t relax. You were on the edge of your seat, like, oh my god, what’s going to happen next?

Mandy Kaplan:
No.

Rick London:
And then the creatures. Alien is just about the xenomorph, but this series introduced these other creatures that are just ridiculously lethal. Beyond imagination.

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay, so the premise of this series, just for those out there who haven’t seen it or are interested. It’s basically whichever of the three species currently prevails determines which corporation will rule. That’s what it says, as it started.

I very, very quickly lost track of what species was which, and I found it hard to follow, because the heart of the pilot and the series in my mind is that there’s a madman named Boy Kavalier — and I want to talk about him — but he finds a way to take sick children, dying, terminal kids, and implant their minds into healthy robots, essentially, who look like adults.

Rick London:
Mm-hmm.

Mandy Kaplan:
And that’s going to give them eternal life and they will be invincible. Am I correct on all of this so far?

Rick London:
That’s the arc that it followed, yes.

Mandy Kaplan:
Nailing it. That to me is so meaningful and emotional. And these actors, who are all kids — their age levels vary from eight to fourteen or something. They are all so charming and vulnerable, and yet they’re these badass adult-looking creatures. And that’s what was for me very gripping about the show.

Rick London:
Oh, I love that. That was a great intro there. I never expected that. And you’re rooting for them. There’s these kids —

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, how could you not? They’re children.

Rick London:
Yeah, they’re children. And then they get put in these bodies that’ll last forever.

Mandy Kaplan:
But then they’re being used, right?

Rick London:
Yeah. But it’s more like an experiment.

Mandy Kaplan:
As mercenaries, or —

Rick London:
‘Cause there’s always an end game to everything. There was an agenda behind it all. And that was brilliant, because it introduced Wendy, who’s the lead, and then —

Mandy Kaplan:
Played by Cindy Chandler, who is exquisite.

Rick London:
She’s great. She was great.

Mandy Kaplan:
I don’t know this actress, but damn, is she good.

Rick London:
It kind of follows the same way like Alien, the first movie. When it came out, it was unknown actors mostly. Even Sigourney Weaver was not known.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah, that was her first — Ripley, that was her first big job.

Rick London:
Yeah. Nobody was really known.

Mandy Kaplan:
Unbelievable.

Rick London:
They had Yaphet Kotto in the first one. He had done some movies. Veronica Cartwright —

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, I know her, yeah.

Rick London:
Yeah. Harry Dean Stanton. And Ian Holm. They had some actors, but none of them were A-list actors.

Mandy Kaplan:
Right.

Rick London:
And then they did this.

Mandy Kaplan:
It helps you go on the journey, I think, when you don’t know the people, because then they’re the characters rather than, oh, this is Charlize Theron giving a good performance.

Rick London:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
There’s a believability when you don’t know the actors, which I love.

Rick London:
Well, you have to give actors a chance. That’s how they get discovered. You give them an opportunity, you give them the role of a lifetime. That’s how all actors became famous.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.

Rick London:
Go back real quick on The Godfather. Al Pacino was already having a great career, but then he played Michael Corleone. Oh my god, you know what I mean? All of a sudden, bingo.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.

Rick London:
Wow, what a performance. And then Robert De Niro. Bingo, wow, he was great too. And I love that they get actors who are not known, and boom, they get this role and they give it their all, and people gravitate toward it and they love it.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.

Rick London:
And that’s part of the draw to the show. Because if they had A-list actors, that budget would have probably been 350 million.

Mandy Kaplan:
Right.

Rick London:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
Good actors are good actors, but it can take you out when you’re thinking, oh, I’ve never seen this person do something like this, or they were better in that other movie. It just takes you out. So I really appreciate — I mean, these actors are all working, they’re not newbies, but they were very, very well cast.

There is a theme that I didn’t recognize fast enough that I want to talk about — this whole thing and how it ties in with Peter Pan. And we’re going to talk about it right after this.

So as they are putting this little girl, this bald, sick little girl, on a table to perform this — they’re going to transfer her brain to Wendy — she’s watching Peter Pan, the actual Disney movie Peter Pan, on a screen.

Rick London:
Mm-hmm.

Mandy Kaplan:
And I immediately thought, how the hell did they get the rights? Disney is very stingy with the rights. And then as the show goes, and as she is named Wendy and then all the other — what’s the name of the creature that they are, the cyborgs or whatever?

Rick London:
I think they’re just synthetics, I believe. Let me see, hold on a second.

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay.

Rick London:
What were they called? Let me see.

Mandy Kaplan:
That checks for me. I’ll buy that.

Rick London:
I believe — yeah, I believe, because there’s three types.

Mandy Kaplan:
But they’re all — oh, sorry.

Rick London:
There’s synthetics. Let me see — the hybrid program, “downloaded with a human consciousness.” Yeah, they’re hybrids. Because there’s hybrid, and then there’s synthetics, like — we were talking about the cast, right?

Mandy Kaplan:
Timothy Olyphant.

Rick London:
We were talking about the cast real quick. They brought in Timothy Olyphant, and I love Timothy Olyphant.

Mandy Kaplan:
Right. Yeah.

Rick London:
And he was a synthetic.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.

Rick London:
He wasn’t —

Mandy Kaplan:
Right.

Rick London:
And then there was that other guy who had the arm, and he was half human. So he’s a cyborg. So there’s cyborg, there’s fully synthetic, and then there’s the hybrid. And Wendy and the Lost Boys, they’re all considered hybrids, because they had their consciousness from the dying kids put into those synthetic bodies.

Mandy Kaplan:
So I eventually picked up on the fact that it’s Wendy, and then all the other hybrids are named after the Lost Boys. And I thought, as the show went on, is the whole show a retelling of Peter Pan in some way, with Boy Kavalier being Hook? And there’s the Lost Boys, and then the other races are like the Indians? Am I onto something, or am I forcing something?

Rick London:
It could be. I think the way I interpreted it was that he even named that island Neverland.

Mandy Kaplan:
Neverland, right.

Rick London:
I think he’s doing that to give a certain comfort level to the hybrids. All of a sudden they’re still alive, but they’re in another body, their consciousness is still there. And because they’re kids in adult bodies and they have superpowers now, it’s sort of a fantasy world. So he wanted to make this fantasy world. But Boy Kavalier is not who he is.

He’s worse than Captain Hook. And yeah, I think it’s just the setup for the kids. It’s just to make them feel like, oh, you’re in this wonderful — you’re now in Neverland. You’re in a fantasy world, and you’re going to live forever. And they soon find out that it’s not Neverland.

Mandy Kaplan:
Well, I was just hoping for a musical number, but it never came.

Rick London:
And how the aliens dance, and all the creatures.

Mandy Kaplan:
Right? This thing is the opposite of a frothy musical. It is so dark and heavy and intense. I think the intensity was almost too much for me.

Boy Kavalier — because I love to analogize, and I like to see similarities and frame of reference from known things — Boy Kavalier, I’m going to say, is heavily based on Willy Wonka. What? Did I just crack it?

Rick London:
You know what? That’s a possibility. Yeah, I can see that.

Mandy Kaplan:
He has his henchmen trying to find the kids, and he’s running this whole thing, and he’s very wacky and does his own thing. I was just getting heavy Willy Wonka vibes. Although pure evil rather than just mischievous.

Rick London:
You know what, that’s an interesting comparison.

Mandy Kaplan:
But to save the children is his mission, yeah.

Rick London:
Yeah, that’s interesting. He sets all the rules, but everything’s about him too. He’s a prodigy. Willy Wonka’s a prodigy. He’s this prodigy, he’s this brilliant mind, but he’s also, as you watch the show, a big a-hole.

Mandy Kaplan:
Well, yeah.

Rick London:
He’s just a big a-hole. He has to be. But he’s an egomaniac too.

And these creatures are all of a sudden brought to him because the spaceship in the first episode lands in the city that he owns. And so he’s like, oh, since they crashed here — yeah, it’s a Weyland-Yutani ship, but because you guys crashed here, now they belong to me. And now he wants to experiment, but he doesn’t really know how dangerous these creatures are. That’s his downfall. If you watch the show, that’s his downfall. He believes he’s so smart that, like any egomaniac, he thinks he can control things around him.

Mandy Kaplan:
Elon Musk.

Rick London:
Right? He thinks he could control everything.

But he doesn’t know that these creatures are super lethal. And they have their own agenda, and their agenda is to survive and to take over wherever they’re at. But he doesn’t know that. But that’s what makes it good. It’s like, hey, let’s discover how this plays out.

Mandy Kaplan:
Well, I have to admit that the stuff that was happening — that was Earth, with her brother and the plane crash. That was Earth. That stuff confused me. And it is so dark and so intense, and there was such violence. So many people just dying and getting gutted in so many ways.

Rick London:
Oh my god, yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
That was tough for me emotionally to handle. It felt like The Last of Us on HBO, which I tried to do an episode of Make Me a Nerd on, and I almost never give up on a property, but it was too depressing. It was too emotional. So I tried to focus more on the fantastical outer space of it all rather than the heartbreak of a society destroyed.

I don’t deal well with that. But Wendy’s brother is a medic on Earth, and he survives the crash, and he’s there to try to help get out survivors. And Wendy is desperate to go find him and reunite with her brother. That’s the stuff I love. The stuff that has heart and emotion. And I got chills when she was able to somehow connect with him telekinetically through a screen. She was able to — just for a moment, he felt her presence. And that kind of stuff was very powerful.

Rick London:
Oh my god, that show has so many subplots. There were just so many. I believe they did all that in that first episode because they want to attract the viewers who are Alien nerds. They want to attract an audience, but then they wanted to make it bigger. They wanted to make it different than the past movies. And I believe that’s why they introduced all the other creatures. They wanted to give people, like, oh my god, did you see that creature? Boom, let’s take it to the next episode.

I can’t wait till the next episode. And all the characters — I connected with all the characters. I love that story with the brother and her, and how they connect, and the search for each other, and the danger that they get in.

Mandy Kaplan:
Right. Well, he thinks she’s dead.

Rick London:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
So he’s not searching for her.

Rick London:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
He knows she’s dead.

Rick London:
No, she’s searching for him.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yes.

Rick London:
‘Cause she knows he’s alive.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah. Right.

Rick London:
And if you watch it, it takes a while for her to reveal who she really is.

Mandy Kaplan:
Right.

Rick London:
And that’s —

Mandy Kaplan:
So you have a naturally beautiful transition. You have started talking about episode two. And just the tiny log line is: tensions rise between rival corporations. A reunion takes place between Wendy and — what the hell is his name? Martin? No. Joe. The brother?

Rick London:
Let me see.

Mandy Kaplan:
Hermit. Joe Hermit, I think.

Rick London:
Yeah, Joe, yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
And a secret is revealed. So now we’re in that second episode, and now we just love Wendy. We just love her. And if you don’t, get off my podcast.

Rick London:
Oh, yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
You just want to take care of her, but you also know she can take care of anything on her own. She’s such a badass.

Rick London:
She’s like your little sister. You love her. She’s got personality, she’s got this vulnerable ten-year-old persona, but she’s discovering her superpower. And she’s also navigating this dangerous world that she doesn’t know about. She doesn’t know these creatures.

I love the whole series, but that second episode is my favorite. I love how they find each other and they have to battle the xenomorph. And that xenomorph when he escapes — oh my god, he just wreaks havoc.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yes.

Rick London:
Everywhere he goes.

Mandy Kaplan:
What is his problem?

Rick London:
And then, oh my god.

Mandy Kaplan:
Why so cranky?

Rick London:
That’s his nature. He’s just a vicious savage. He just kills with no impunity.

And then the other part — we’re talking about Wendy and her brother, and they introduce the other guy. He comes from the first episode. He’s a central figure in there. The gentleman — he’s the cyborg.

Mandy Kaplan:
The cyborg. Morrow, his name is.

Rick London:
Yeah. He’s the henchman for Weyland-Yutani.

His sole mission is, because of the crash, he has to regather all the specimens and make sure that they go back to Weyland-Yutani.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah, he is chilling.

Rick London:
Oh my god, yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
He’s heartless, yet you somehow care about him.

Rick London:
Oh wow, yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
The actor’s name is Babou Ceesay.

Rick London:
Oh, he’s awesome.

Mandy Kaplan:
And —

Rick London:
Great role, wow.

Mandy Kaplan:
If I saw him in the wild, I would walk to the other side of the street. He is creepy and intense, but a really fine actor who almost seems — I don’t know much about cyborgs, but it’s like this is just what he has to do, but there’s a humanity behind his eyes, almost that he hates that he has to do this. He’s not just robotic. There’s a lot of human life behind the evil for him, I think.

Rick London:
Well, I think, if I remember correctly, I believe he has a wife and a daughter or something.

Mandy Kaplan:
That sounds right.

Rick London:
And I believe he’s almost extorted to do what he has to do. Weyland-Yutani’s got him by the, you know what, the sack.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.

Rick London:
But also, the actor played that role so well. Yeah, he’s heartless. He’s driven to get those creatures and it doesn’t matter who gets in the way.

And going into a later episode, how he manipulates one of the Lost Boys to do his bidding, to get the creatures back — that really showed who he really is. He’s just manipulating this young mind to get what he wants, regardless of what’s going to happen to that synthetic. He’s vicious. He’s just as bad as the creatures on the show, I think. To me he was just as bad as one of them.

Mandy Kaplan:
Absolutely. And speaking of the young minds, I have a question about the hybrids when they arrive on Earth. They go into the wreckage to try to find the brother and whatever they’re trying to find — that’s part of the thread that I lost. But they see dead body after dead body and they have no emotional reaction to it. Why? They’re kids. They’re human thirteen-year-olds or eleven-year-olds. Why wouldn’t they be terrified and sad to see all these dead bodies?

Rick London:
That’s an interesting question. I think because they’re so young and they’ve just never seen it. And they were sent on a mission by Boy Kavalier to go to the ship and retrieve the specimens that are on there, and retrieve everything before Weyland-Yutani gets her hands back on ’em. And they’re just coming across — I think it’s just they’ve never seen it. They don’t have the experience. They don’t have the knowledge of what that is.

And at the same time, they’re still exploring their new body. They’re exploring their new surroundings. My god, it’s like they’re thrown into this absurd situation and they’ve yet to figure out who they really are again. They were saved. And they haven’t even had time to grow up. They don’t know anything, really. They’re still young minds, and so they see something and they don’t know what a dead body is. They don’t know what they’re coming across.

Mandy Kaplan:
Respectfully, I would disagree. Any kid — they know death, because they were given a diagnosis like, you’re going to die, you’re not going to live to be an adult, and they chose to become hybrids so that they could live. So they understand the concept of life and death. I just question that — they’re supposed to be our emotional characters. Not the cyborgs, not the synthetics. These are our emotional characters. And they were just stepping over bloody dead bodies as if nothing.

Rick London:
I think for me it’s just that they didn’t really know how to react to it, in a way, too. They’ve never seen it. And maybe the writers wanted to write it that way so they didn’t have to take the story into another part about the kids’ reactions to that.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah, they would have run.

Rick London:
They just wanted to continue —

Mandy Kaplan:
They would have just cried and run away, and then story over, maybe.

Rick London:
Yeah. They just wanted them to be there and continue on with their search. And to find the other creatures.

Yeah, you’re right. I mean, they are kids, they do have emotions, they do have fears and insecurities. But I think just the premise that they were in, it’s just like, hey — oh my god. Move on. Because that was the whole goal of them.

Mandy Kaplan:
We are getting to the final episode. I watched one, two, and eight on your recommendation, and we’re going to tackle this final episode, and I want to hear all about your book when we come back.

Welcome back, everybody! While I have your attention, I’d like to tell you all that Make Me a Nerd is a production of TruStory FM, engineering by the peerless Pete Wright. My music is “Wonderstruck” by Jane and the Boy. You can find me on socials if you want — Instagram at Mandy underscore Kaplan underscore Klavens, both with K’s, or on TikTok at Mandy Miscast. And hey, if you’re listening on Apple Podcasts, or if you have Apple Podcasts, would you please, please write a review, five stars, and then leave a comment?

That’s a way that more people can discover my podcast, which is why I’m doing this whole thing, and I’m loving this whole thing. And if you’re feeling really supportive, please go to makemeanerd.com/join. Five bucks a month will get you your episodes ad-free and early, and I’d be really grateful.

One more thing I want to say is that Make Me a Nerd is a part of this family of podcasts called TruStory FM, and they have tons of fantastic shows. One of my favorites is the Most Excellent 80s Movies Podcast, hosted by one of everybody’s favorite guests on my show, Krissy Lenz. They did an Aliens episode — season three, episode one. So if you want to hear more Aliens talk, check out the Most Excellent 80s Movies Podcast.

Huh. It’s a lot of my voice. Too much.

There is a podcast about Alien: Earth. Have you listened to the podcast?

Rick London:
No, I didn’t know. Oh my god, thank you. That’s why I go on podcasts. A lot of times I go on podcasts to talk about my book, but every podcast I’m learning something new, and that’s beautiful. Because I go in there with an open mind. And because I don’t know everything. I don’t know everything, and I go in there like that.

My god, I’ve learned so much about a lot of things just from talking to other people and their viewpoints, and respecting their viewpoints. And it’s like, man, that’s awesome. And boom, now look at that — you tell me about it, I’ve got to find this podcast.

Mandy Kaplan:
It’s an official podcast. On my Hulu, when I was watching it, you can select “listen to the podcast.” So I know it’s out there, and I bet you would get lots of inside info, BTS stuff that you would love and could nerd out about.

Rick, while I have you here, let’s talk about your book. You have written and published a book in the Wolfman genre. Can you tell me about it?

Rick London:
Sure, I would love to. Thank you. It’s actually a werewolf story, but it covers romance, paranormal, romantasy, supernatural, adventure, thriller. My book is called The Dancing Wolfeman, Volume 1 — and it’s Wolfeman with an E, because my protagonist’s last name is Wolfe, of all things. A guy named Wolfe becomes a Wolfman.

So the premise is, he’s a high school music teacher by day and a DJ by night. Music’s been in his life since he was a baby. His father is a sound engineer. His mom worked at a record shop. They’ve been playing music every day since he grew up. He learned how to dance, he became a great dancer, music came natural to him. He can hear the notes, the melodies, the rhythms. He was a natural with everything, and then people gravitated toward him to ask him, hey, you’re a great dancer, show me this move. I’m not doing so well. Hey, what about this note?

And that’s where his love for teaching came. Because he could have done something else. Smart guy. He’s an excellent athlete. He was a high school track star, took it to college.

Mandy Kaplan:
And has he been a Wolfman the whole time, or does he discover that later in life?

Rick London:
So what happens in the beginning of the book, he’s coming from a gig, because he’s a DJ on the weekends. He’s coming back from a gig in Sonoma County.

And I set the story in the San Francisco Bay Area, because that’s where I grew up.

Mandy Kaplan:
Sure.

Rick London:
And, wow, there’s a Wolfman in the Bay Area now. That’s awesome, right? And so he’s coming back, going home from Sonoma, and he encounters this wolf and becomes a wolf later.

Mandy Kaplan:
Gotcha.

Rick London:
And in his first transformation, he’s hoping that something will save him, ’cause he knows when he becomes a Wolfman he’s going to probably end up killing somebody. At least one. So he’s hoping that something will save him — and hopefully music, because he loves music. But then once he turns to the Wolfman, he falls to the instincts of the Wolfman.

Mandy Kaplan:
Mm-hmm. Yes, you have to follow that.

Rick London:
Yeah, of course.

Mandy Kaplan:
I’ve narrated a lot of these lycan books, so I am quite familiar, weirdly, because I’m a voiceover narrator as well.

Rick London:
Yeah. But what happens with my story — here’s the twist. So right before he’s about to mutilate that first victim — it’s this lady jogging in the woods and she’s playing music from her iPhone.

Mandy Kaplan:
Ah, oh.

Rick London:
And so she has her earbuds on. So he’s waiting for her. And because his senses are heightened, he hears music in her earbuds. And then that little music starts changing his consciousness. And then all of a sudden he’s Titus again. Titus Wolfe.

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay, yeah.

Rick London:
He’s Titus Wolfe, but he’s still a Wolfman.

And because he’s not a killer, he can’t come to that point where he doesn’t know how to kill.

Mandy Kaplan:
Mm-hmm.

Rick London:
And so instead he lets her be. He just looks at her and takes off. Comes back again because he’s smitten with her, comes back in again, and he saves her the second time he transforms. So he becomes a savior and a protector as the story progresses.

Mandy Kaplan:
Gotcha. Yeah.

Rick London:
And that’s pretty much what the story is. So that’s the big twist. It’s not a regular Wolfman story.

Mandy Kaplan:
All right.

Rick London:
It has romance. I don’t have a lot of swearing in there. I think the word “shit” is the worst word I used.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, my ears. Where can people get the book?

Rick London:
So I have a website at dancingwolfeman —

Mandy Kaplan:
Mm-hmm.

Rick London:
— dot com. Again, with an E.

Mandy Kaplan:
With an E. Mm-hmm.

Rick London:
You can buy my book right there. As soon as you land on the homepage, there’s a button right there.

Mandy Kaplan:
Great, great, great.

Rick London:
It’s also available on Amazon, on ThriftBooks, Walmart, Apple Books. And I’m going to get it distributed worldwide pretty soon.

Mandy Kaplan:
Great, great.

Rick London:
But I would love for you to get on the website. And one thing, too, to follow what you said earlier about leaving reviews. If any of your audience members buys a book and you really love it — or if you don’t — please, please, please, wherever you buy it, leave a review. Because again, just like Mandy said, when you leave reviews, it doesn’t just help the book get discovered.

It helps other readers discover the book.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yes.

Rick London:
Because some people might be searching for something new, and it’s like, bingo, the search engine picks up on that and they start ranking you higher, and it’s easier to find.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yes. Preach.

Rick London:
Because of the reviews. Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yes. Excellent. Everybody, those links will be in the show notes, so everybody can get the book, and let me know what you think.

And you’re talking about Wolfman, which ties beautifully into “The Real Monsters,” episode eight, the final episode of the season. And this is when I finally looked up the actress playing Dame Sylvia, Essie Davis. And the whole time I was like, she’s so familiar, she’s so familiar. She’s the lead actress in The Babadook. Have you ever seen The Babadook?

Rick London:
No, I don’t think — you mean the English lady, right?

Mandy Kaplan:
Australian.

Rick London:
Oh, she’s Australian?

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.

Rick London:
Oh, I loved her in the series. But no, I’ve never seen her, yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
This movie — it’s one of the best horror films I’ve ever seen. I did it for the podcast with Tommy Metz, so if anybody’s interested, there’s an episode on The Babadook. I cannot recommend this movie enough.

Rick London:
What’s it called?

Mandy Kaplan:
The Babadook. B-A-B-A-D-O-O-K. Babadook.

Rick London:
Oh, so it’s a horror movie.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.

Rick London:
I’ve got to check it out.

Mandy Kaplan:
And it’s really frickin’ good.

Rick London:
Thank you.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yes.

Rick London:
Got to check it out.

Mandy Kaplan:
But her character, for me, is hard to pin down. And because I missed a bunch of episodes — she seems like she cares about the hybrids. She seems to be a good person wrapped up in a bad world. But then she is taken hostage with the bad guys.

She’s lumped in with them. Is that justice, or — help me fill in the blanks for the episodes I missed. Tell me about Dame Sylvia.

Rick London:
That’s the one part I didn’t like, because I loved her character. I think she was just doing what she was doing. Boy Kavalier — she was doing his bidding, pretty much. Yeah, she probably got paid a lot of money. But she was doing his bidding. And I agree with you. I believe that she deeply cared for these kids. For these hybrids that are coming up.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.

Rick London:
And at the end, where Wendy makes her look like she’s a bad guy — and she’s not. She was just doing her job, pretty much.

I mean, it kind of gets very political in that sense. But to me, I didn’t like that part. I didn’t like it. To me, if I had written it, I would have made her a protagonist. I would’ve made her part of the core. ‘Cause again, she was just doing what she was doing. Boy Kavalier, he’s got his hands on everything.

Mandy Kaplan:
But that’s an interesting thing to dive into and debate.

Rick London:
And —

Mandy Kaplan:
She was part of the system. And so — I’m trying not to use political names right now, but if you are tacit and agreeing to be a part of those things, you are guilty. Now, you may have better intentions, or you may care, but in a way I agree. Yep, you were part of the bad guys. Get in the cell and get tied to the wall.

Rick London:
I agree, because the other part of it too — the flip side of that is, yeah, she was doing what she was told, but Wendy doesn’t see that. It’s like, hey, you’re still working for Boy Kavalier. You had a choice. You didn’t have to do what you did. You could have walked away. So she doesn’t see that part.

Mandy Kaplan:
There it is.

Rick London:
But she’s also a scientist. She’s a scientist and she’s coming up on this brand new technology, this magnificent technology that can save people.

So in a way, to me, Wendy wasn’t emotionally attached to that part. She didn’t really understand what she was doing. So it’s twofold. She’s a protagonist, but you can also look at her as a villain, because she’s a follower. And she had a choice. If you go back, if you see the whole series, Mandy, in certain parts she did have a choice. The story could have changed where she could have changed her mind and looked at it in an ethical way. It’s like, hey, you know what, we’re doing — yeah, it’s great, we’re saving lives. But these kids — what are we doing to these young minds? We’re giving them powers that normal kids don’t have. What are we doing? You know what I mean? What is the end game to this?

Mandy Kaplan:
Yes, those are all the bigger questions raised.

Rick London:
So there you go.

Mandy Kaplan:
Wendy — god, it was so chilling and exciting. All the Lost Boys are saying, what do we do? How do we get out of the situation, or what do we do? And she says — I’m going to do a dramatic reading of a line of dialogue here — she says, “All this time we’ve been afraid of them, but I think they should be afraid of us.” And it’s like the moment the kids realize they are invincible.

Rick London:
I love that.

Mandy Kaplan:
They’re going to turn the tables and they’re going to take over.

Rick London:
Oh, that’s beautiful. I loved it.

Mandy, it was funny. I watched somebody’s podcast and it briefly brought up the Aliens thing, and the gentleman didn’t like that part, where the kids took over. He goes, what’s that about?

And the other thing — I don’t know if you were going to get into how she learns how to talk to the xenomorph. The xenomorph understands her chirping. And because in a lot of the movies, if you go back, the xenomorphs know what an animal is, what a victim is, and they know what the cyborgs are. The synthetics. They don’t kill the synthetics, per se. And so that was an interesting twist right there. I love that.

So this guy told me, he goes, oh, I don’t like it that the alien became her pet. And it’s like, I don’t think the alien became her pet. They formed a relationship.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s just a way to communicate.

Rick London:
Yeah. He wasn’t her pet. And she prevented him from killing all the people at the end, but I think that was just — she talked to him in a very intelligent way, because those creatures, they’re just not vicious killers.

They’re very smart. They’re a very intelligent creature. He’s got a big brain in there somewhere in that big old head of his. But to me, I didn’t see it as a pet. I saw him more as a collaboration.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah, and I did miss — because I didn’t watch every episode, I was a little thrown when she made a noise and he stopped, and I was like, what the hell just happened?

Rick London:
Hey, you’ve got to see that.

Mandy Kaplan:
I think what it says — I’m going to get deep. I don’t know, Pete, if you have a sound effect for when I get deep. It happens so rarely.

The idea that the hybrids decide, oh wait, we are invincible, we can take over, is what our deepest fears are about AI right now. It’s going to outsmart us, right?

Rick London:
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
This creation of humanity is going to outsmart us and take over.

Rick London:
Yeah. That’s a perfect analogy. Oh my god, that leaves a cliffhanger. Like, what’s going to happen next?

I just read an article yesterday — was it yesterday or Friday? Somebody shut off a program, an AI program, and the AI decided — they wanted it shut down, and they made a copy of themselves. I forget what it was. And that’s like the Terminator, right?

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.

Rick London:
Cyborg systems, right?

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah. That’s the reason I don’t sleep at night, is stories like that.

Rick London:
Oh my god, right? It’s like, oh my god.

Mandy Kaplan:
Thank you, Rick London.

Rick London:
Yeah, yeah. So I agree with you about that ending. All of a sudden you’ve got these mechanical creatures with a human consciousness, and then all of a sudden they’re the badasses. That’s a scary situation. People probably thought about this like, oh my god, the robots are taking over the world.

Mandy Kaplan:
I mean, I think that’s the message. I could be wrong.

So therefore this was my favorite episode, big time, because I have an overblown sense of justice, and these kids getting to rise up and kidnap their creators and take over — that’s the stuff I get off on. I love a good revenge plot. So I know you liked episode two the best, and I respect that, but this one had me cheering when the bad guy is face to face with Wendy — Boy Kavalier — and he says, like, what do I do? And she just says, “Run.”

Rick London:
Run.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh yeah, Wendy.

Rick London:
No, I love the last episode. Don’t get me wrong. I loved it. It’s the best one. The reason why I love the second episode is because the xenomorph goes crazy, and it reminded me of the Alien movies.

Now let me give you something scary to ponder. We haven’t covered this.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah. Oh.

Rick London:
How about that creature that looks like the eye, and it has eight eyes and then one eye? That creature to me is deadlier than the xenomorph.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh god. Like an eye with tentacles.

Rick London:
That thing is vicious.

Mandy Kaplan:
Also, in this episode, we see a human — or a guy who looks human — on a beach, dead, at the beginning of the episode and at the end. He reaches up and it pops his eyeball out. And I wrote, “Oh come on, eyeballs don’t pop out that easy.” But then it becomes that creature with the — oh god, these little eyeballs.

Oh god, there were so many bugs. Rick, I almost keyed your car, if I knew where you lived and what you drove. With that thing — I’d give anything to unsee that squishy thing crawl under the collar of the soldier. I can still feel it, and I really truly couldn’t watch it when it reemerged.

But even the sound design of that — do you know what I’m talking about? That big slug-like bug thing that went down. Oh, Rick, I almost called it.

Rick London:
Oh my god.

Well, that’s the beauty of the show. It’s not just about the xenomorph. It’s going back to the Alien roots, but then they introduce all these other species that they gathered. And where do they come from? Yeah, you have the slug that goes in there and just — oh my god. And then did you have those flying bugs with the wings that look like giant hornets? And they spit out — what did they say?

Mandy Kaplan:
I don’t think so. There’s more spitting? Oh, great.

Rick London:
You’ve got to go back and see it, but they have this one episode where they do something and they show how deadly they are.

Then you have that eyeball. My god, that thing — again, to me, that little thing is also highly intelligent. I think it was in episode eight, the last episode. Remember, he’s in the man’s eyeball and they’re fighting on the ship, and then he attacks the xenomorph, and the xenomorph couldn’t even — he’s going crazy because it’s trying to penetrate him.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah, oh yeah.

Rick London:
And I’m like, oh my god, that creature’s worse than a xenomorph. What did they get this stuff from? It’s brilliant. It’s brilliant where they come up with this.

Mandy Kaplan:
You know what I love? We are wrapping up, believe it or not, but I love how childlike you are when you talk about it. Because that’s the fun of this stuff. It gets you feeling like, yeah, and then this creature goes on his face and he — right? That’s what all of this should be. It should be entertaining, and it should make us feel fantastical and childlike and like anything is possible. And Alien: Earth really does that. It is on the very, very gruesome side — I’m warning everybody — but if you can handle gruesome, that’s what this gives you. That childlike glee at this world. It’s very immersive and very well made.

Rick London:
It’s very nerdy. The nerds love stuff like that. That’s funny, I’m on your podcast and I’m looking at the title. I’m like, am I a nerd too? You know what? Nerds rule the world right now.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah, spoiler alert, Rick, you’re a nerd.

Rick London:
You know what I mean? Yeah, I am, I am.

I like that you said that.

Mandy Kaplan:
It’s —

Rick London:
Yeah. In many ways my wife says that too. She goes, oh my god, you’re a kid. A lot of the movies that I like, my wife doesn’t care for, mainly because that’s just how I grew up. I grew up in the seventies, and there were a lot of good movies from the seventies, but there were a lot of campy movies and a lot of garbage movies too — every decade has that. But I grew up to it, and I always gravitated toward sci-fi, horror, adventures. And even now, I’m sixty-two. I just turned sixty-two last month. But you know what?

Mandy Kaplan:
Happy birthday.

Rick London:
I’m still a kid at heart. It’s like, I’m still a kid at heart, and that’s okay.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yes.

Rick London:
That’s who I am. And I don’t fight that.

Mandy Kaplan:
That’s great. And you’ve written a book, and I’m so impressed by people who set a goal, go for it, and get it done. So congratulations on that.

Rick London:
Thank you.

Mandy Kaplan:
And congratulations on making me a nerd about Alien: Earth. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Rick London:
Absolutely. And again, please go watch the rest of the episodes. You said you watched one, two, and eight. Watch three to seven, and that’ll set you up to understand what really happens in episode eight.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah. Yeah.

Rick London:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
I did read little summaries of plots just so I could understand where I was. But I’m still having nightmares about the squishy bug and the eyeballs. Woof.

Rick London:
Remember, it’s made up.

Mandy Kaplan:
Thank you s—

Rick London:
It’s not real.

Mandy Kaplan:
God, I hope so. Okay. Thank you, Rick London. Nice to meet you. And thank you, everyone, for listening. Until next time.