Mandy Kaplan:
Hello everybody and welcome to Make Me a Nerd. I’m Mandy Kaplan, a mainstream mom whose mission it is to explore the world of nerd culture that I’ve been missing out on and afraid of my whole life. Nerd culture can mean a lot of things. It can mean the traditional Dungeons and Dragons, sci-fi, fantasy world. It can also mean how you approach something. If you have a hobby but you are nerdy about it — you are in chat rooms and going to cons and joining leagues and really passionate and you want to deep dive — that’s not my personality type. That’s why I started this podcast. I find nerdy people who want to make me a nerd about different things.
And this topic was brought to you by my guest’s wife, who said, my husband’s a great big nerd about pinball and you should have him on. He is my friend. He is a pinball wizard himself. And he’s my new neighbor, which is personally very exciting. Clark Hill.
Clark Hill:
Hey everybody.
Mandy Kaplan:
Well, they can’t see you wave.
Clark Hill:
Well, I’m just trying to be enthusiastic.
Mandy Kaplan:
It’s just you and me. Do you consider yourself a nerd in general?
Clark Hill:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
In what ways? Tell me everything.
Clark Hill:
Yeah. I’ve always been a nerd. I’m like a theater kid. I play video games. I play Magic cards. I play pinball. Pinball’s like the third nerdiest thing I do.
Mandy Kaplan:
Really?
Clark Hill:
Magic cards is pretty nerdy.
Mandy Kaplan:
Magic — you mean Magic: The Gathering?
Clark Hill:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah, no, that’s really nerdy. I haven’t tried that yet.
Clark Hill:
Have you done a podcast on Magic yet?
Mandy Kaplan:
Not yet.
Clark Hill:
Oh, that’s a great topic. I’m probably not the one, but you know.
Mandy Kaplan:
Well, we’ll see how this goes.
Clark Hill:
Okay, yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
So I remember meeting you years and years ago and seeing that you had pinball machines in your home — like, this is not what other people typically have. Where did this start for you, this love of pinball?
Clark Hill:
When I was growing up, my aunt and uncle had a pinball machine at their house. So that was always like the cool house to go to for holidays, birthdays, whatever. It’s like, oh, go to Uncle Bob’s house.
Mandy Kaplan:
Shout out Bob. Yeah.
Clark Hill:
Shout out to Bob. I think that was my first introduction to it. And then — oh yeah, it’s still in the family.
Mandy Kaplan:
Do you know what game that was?
Clark Hill:
8 Ball.
Mandy Kaplan:
Eight Ball. I’m assuming that’s a billiards theme.
Clark Hill:
Yeah, yeah. There are a lot of pool and billiards themes from the 70s and 80s, because they were featured in pool halls a lot. That was maybe one of the machines you saw at my house — it was there for a little bit.
And then I remember I was on vacation in Florida, probably around twelve or thirteen, and I saw somebody playing Terminator 2 pinball. Their whole body was moving and they were so into it, and they would play for so long. I was just standing in the arcade watching this adult play pinball — he was so good at it — and I was like, I’ve never seen anything like it. That was sort of a pinball moment for me.
And then in college, we would go to the bars and drink, and if it was a choice between a bar that didn’t have pinball and a bar that had pinball, it’s like, oh, we’re going to the place where we can play pinball while we drink.
Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah. I don’t think I saw pinball around me other than at the Fun and Games arcade.
Clark Hill:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
Shout out to anyone from Framingham — we had a great arcade on Route 9. But once that closed, I don’t remember pinball just being at a pizza place or a bar. I don’t think we had a lot of that growing up. So pinball for me is like the bowling alley.
Clark Hill:
Yeah. But that’s not a fun place to hang out and drink, you know.
Mandy Kaplan:
Have you ever — let’s go out this weekend?
Clark Hill:
Yes.
Mandy Kaplan:
You don’t know. We’ll make the most of it.
Clark Hill:
Well, I recently watched a film about pinball, about the ups and downs of the industry. And I think you watched it too. So pinball’s enjoying a bit of a resurgence right now, but you go back 15 years, pinball wasn’t that big, you didn’t see it really at bars. There was a bowling alley in the valley — Pins in Studio City — and they had like four pinball machines there. That was the most pinball machines of anywhere in a one-hour radius. So we would go play at the bowling alley, but it wasn’t a great venue to enjoy a pint and play pinball.
Mandy Kaplan:
Sure. How many pinball machines do you have now?
Clark Hill:
I have no pinball machines.
Mandy Kaplan:
You don’t?
Clark Hill:
Zero.
Mandy Kaplan:
How do you feel about that?
Clark Hill:
I would have a pinball machine or two, but it’s more important to stay married.
Mandy Kaplan:
It’s debatable. Jared doesn’t listen to this, I can say that. That’s not true. I love you, Jared. Okay, so you don’t have any at the moment. Did you ever have more than one? Did you ever have a collection?
Clark Hill:
I think the most I ever had at one time was like two. We’ve had one or two over the years. But the thing is, I like to go out — I like to leave the house in general. So I need somewhere to go. It kind of works out.
Mandy Kaplan:
So this is one question I had — and we did both watch Shoot Again, the documentary, the aforementioned documentary.
Clark Hill:
Shoot Again.
Mandy Kaplan:
So one of my observations was that they talk about how now they’re doing conventions and getting people together. I forget the name of the big expo they were trying to plan.
Clark Hill:
Pinburgh, maybe. Yeah, there are a couple.
Mandy Kaplan:
It was like the expo. But my question is, essentially pinball is a solo thing, isn’t it?
Clark Hill:
Right.
Mandy Kaplan:
You’re playing on your own. You’re hopefully putting some blinders on so you can focus and really do your thing. So it seems strange that you said you like to go out and be social to do this thing that is a solo thing.
Clark Hill:
I don’t necessarily want to be social — I want to leave the house. I want a change of scenery. But part of the appeal —
Mandy Kaplan:
But you don’t meet up with people?
Clark Hill:
Sometimes I do, but I could go out solo on my own and play three hours of pinball and I’m perfectly happy. I think that’s part of the appeal — you’re in your own world. I don’t have to talk to anybody. I don’t have to smile or put on airs. I just focus. I’m in my zone.
Mandy Kaplan:
I get that. But you said you are in leagues, correct?
Clark Hill:
I am in one pinball league currently. I’ve been in a couple other leagues, but yeah, one right now. Lots of fun.
Mandy Kaplan:
What is the social element of it in a league or at an expo?
Clark Hill:
Some people do the league really just for social interaction. I do it completely not for that. I like to hang out with people, I guess, but I do it more for the competitive nature and just to learn. It gives me a reason to go out and practice pinball. It justifies all the other pinball that I play. It’s like, well, I’m in a league, I gotta go practice.
But a lot of people are in the league for social reasons. I have a bunch of pinball friends that I’ve made over the years, and that’s the social aspect of it. It’s great. And it is kind of funny — it’s like bowling, right? The activity you’re doing is totally solo, totally on your own, focused on nothing else. But then when you’re done, it’s like, well, now somebody else has to play, so you go talk to all the other friends.
Mandy Kaplan:
I remember when I was creating my show Miscast and I didn’t know what I wanted to do. I just knew I needed to get out of the house — this was when I had an infant at home and I needed out. People said, oh, do a one-woman show, or go take voice lessons or acting lessons or whatever. But for me, I wanted the camaraderie. I wanted a bunch of like souls to be with. I didn’t want to do a one-woman show. If I’m gonna get out of my house, I want to be with others like me. Like the bee girl in that Blind Melon video — I want to find my people.
Clark Hill:
Totally.
Mandy Kaplan:
What a reference.
Clark Hill:
Yeah. It’s a deep cut.
Mandy Kaplan:
But there’s an unspoken commonality that you all have. We all love doing this, and that immediately bonds us — and then we can form friendships, or just be together in the moment and go about our lives.
Let’s dive into this movie. And throughout, I’m going to pepper you with questions about your preferences in pinball games.
Clark Hill:
Okay.
Mandy Kaplan:
So this was called Shoot Again. I watched it on Tubi. Let me do the logline so if anybody wants to know what we’re talking about. “In an era of digital streaming, cloud-based and electronic entertainment, pinball is a paradox. The team looks at how a 300-pound box of lights and wires appeals to a new generation.” That’s it. This is like a love letter to pinball. Almost like a long-form ad for the games and the sport. There’s no lead character in the documentary that we’re following. There’s no tension. Everybody’s just gushing about this thing they love.
Clark Hill:
It made me want to go play pinball. I finished it and I was like, well, I’m going to the arcade.
Mandy Kaplan:
And did you?
Clark Hill:
Yeah, yeah. Conveniently.
Mandy Kaplan:
Were you allowed out? It made me want to play pinball too. They did such beauty shots of these games, the lights — I wish there were more sound. The film had wall-to-wall music. There was never a moment of silence. And then one of them says, I just love how all the pinball machines sound, it’s like a symphony of pinball noise — but they never let us hear that. And I was like, guys, let us hear it. If you’re talking about how great that sound is.
Pinball is not relaxing. It is adrenaline. It is bright lights, loud sounds. And yet somehow I got the sense that all that combines to ultimately make these guys feel relaxed. Is that accurate or am I an idiot?
Clark Hill:
You’re on to something. I don’t think it’s relaxation as much as it’s a flow state. A lot of things can induce a flow state — sports, video games. To me, pinball is the ultimate flow state-inducing mechanism because it’s super mesmerizing with the sound and the lights, and you have to be completely focused. You’re standing at this machine. There’s something about it that just grips you and you’re in the world of pinball.
Mandy Kaplan:
You’re in the zone.
Clark Hill:
You’re in the zone.
Mandy Kaplan:
What is your favorite? If 10,000 machines were all lined up and you could only play one — what would you choose?
Clark Hill:
If there are that many pinball machines, I’d probably gravitate towards some of the older machines I haven’t played before. But setting that aside — I think my favorites are some of the newer machines. There’s a game designer by the name of Keith Elwin. He’s only made, I don’t know, half a dozen games that he’s actually designed. But I love all of them. To me, he’s the best game designer. If I could only play one pinball machine for the rest of my life, it would be Jaws, or probably something else designed by Keith.
Mandy Kaplan:
Have you encountered him? Do you know him?
Clark Hill:
Oh my gosh. I totally embarrassed myself in front of him because I’m such a fanboy.
Mandy Kaplan:
Tell the world that story, if you’re comfortable.
Clark Hill:
I was at a large pinball tournament — It Never Drains, in southern California. It’s the big world championship event that takes place here in California. I went, I don’t know, two years ago or something, and I was just having drinks in the bar with a bunch of pinball people. Bowen Kerins was there — another legend in the field. Escher Lefkoff was there. Huge titans of pinball. And I held it together for Bowen, because Bowen — I love him. But when Keith was there and I’m having a beer with Keith Elwin, I was just like, your games are the greatest and you’re the greatest of all time. And he — apparently this must happen to him, because he was just like —
Mandy Kaplan:
Speaking to someone that this happens to, Clark.
Clark Hill:
It was like being the nerd in high school. He’s like, get away from me.
Mandy Kaplan:
You just get used to it.
Clark Hill:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
No, that’s so cool. And when you say “design games” — in this documentary they did show the inner workings of some machines. And they seem to be handmade. You can’t really crank them out on a production line, right?
Clark Hill:
I mean, they’re made in a factory and a lot of the parts are machined, but they have to be put together by a person, as of now.
Mandy Kaplan:
Which I love. It gives it a human element.
Clark Hill:
I don’t think it would be pinball without that. Because every machine is so different. I could play one Jaws machine here in Los Angeles, and I could go to some other location in a different state and play Jaws, and they’re like totally different games. Each has its own personality.
Mandy Kaplan:
Really? Different graphics, different lights, different settings — or just variance in how they were built?
Clark Hill:
All of the above. Some of it is settings. You can have competition mode, you can have casual mode, at least for the new ones. The tilt settings — do you know about tilting? This is very important in pinball culture.
So you have a mechanical mechanism — I know this is not a visual medium, but there is a pendulum that hangs down with a weight at the bottom, and around the pendulum is a ring. When the machine moves, the pendulum moves, and if it hits the side of the ring, you get a tilt. You lose the ball, you lose your bonus.
Mandy Kaplan:
Like a gutter in bowling?
Clark Hill:
Yeah, it’s like a zero. So you can move the machine to help influence how the ball’s moving, but if you move it too much, you get a tilt — a penalty.
Mandy Kaplan:
Okay. You can physically move the machine when you’re playing?
Clark Hill:
Yeah, yeah. You’re encouraged to.
Mandy Kaplan:
Really? I don’t know if I could. I’m a weak little thing. It’s a 300-pound machine — I just read that.
Clark Hill:
Yeah, they’re heavy. And there are some injuries — hand injuries, finger injuries, elbow injuries, wrist injuries.
Mandy Kaplan:
You said it, not me.
Clark Hill:
But it happens. I had to wear a glove for a couple months because I hurt my hand.
Mandy Kaplan:
Look, you’re talking to a lady who got a first-degree burn from a Pop-Tart. So I understand injuries from things that don’t seem dangerous. That frosting.
Clark Hill:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
Well, they interviewed dozens and dozens of pinball players, designers, and people who had tried to launch their own companies in this documentary. So we got the gamut — the end user and the person who created it. I thought that was interesting.
Clark Hill:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
One of the women they interviewed — of the few women they had — Lindsay Rhodes says, well, all the machines have different rules. To a noob like me, they look like they’re all the same. You push the flippers, the ball goes, and —
Clark Hill:
Yeah, there are only two buttons.
Mandy Kaplan:
Right. They all look the same. But can you explain what she meant? What does “they all have different rules” mean?
Clark Hill:
Yeah. So when we talk about rules or a rule set, it basically means how scoring works. At the end of the day, it’s all about getting the highest score. On a given pinball machine, you might have two ramps and two loop shots and a little saucer shot and a couple stand-up targets, and they’re all worth X number of points. But it gets much more complicated than that. You might have to hit the three stand-up targets in order to light one of the ramps for a jackpot, or to lock a ball for multiball, or to start a mode. And then a mode starts, and that changes the rules during the mode so that this thing is worth so many points.
Mandy Kaplan:
Like leveling up?
Clark Hill:
Yeah, exactly.
Mandy Kaplan:
Like if you play Mario — which I’ve never done, but I know the screen changes. If you get through this thing, now you’re in a new challenge.
Clark Hill:
Exactly. That’s the best analogy for pinball.
Mandy Kaplan:
Look at me using video game analogies.
Clark Hill:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
Before I ask a much deeper question, I want to ask you — when they’re showing hundreds of different machines in this documentary, were you doing a little tally? Like, played it, played it? Because I was sitting there thinking, has Clark even seen these? Has he played most of them? I couldn’t believe how many different themes there were.
Clark Hill:
No, no, no. There are so many. I mean, I don’t even know what the number would be. And some pinball machines are literally just a one-off — some person in their garage makes a machine or takes an existing machine and retools it. There are machines that were released in the 60s or 70s that just were released in Europe. Very rare to see those games. So there are a lot more machines that I have never played than machines I have played.
Mandy Kaplan:
Sure. And have you ever played this one? I’m gonna show you a picture — and Pete, if you could please put this picture up.
Clark Hill:
Is that The Shadow?
Mandy Kaplan:
This is The Shadow. Is that Alec Baldwin?
Clark Hill:
Yeah, yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
Why is Alec Baldwin on an arcade game?
Clark Hill:
Okay. So in the 90s, so many pinball machines were licensed movie pinball machines. Have you ever seen The Shadow?
Mandy Kaplan:
Sure. No.
Clark Hill:
Same. But it didn’t matter if it was a successful movie. They would make the pinball machines and time the release of the movie with the release of the pinball machine. And then you would have it in the movie theater — oh, look at that, Congo pinball is here. So before I go see some pretty crappy 90s summer blockbuster, I can play Waterworld or Hook, or name a 90s movie that appeals to 18-to-35-year-old males, and there’s a pinball machine for it.
Mandy Kaplan:
Gotcha. So probably a smaller run — let’s make a couple hundred of these and get them out there.
Clark Hill:
I think those had runs in the thousands.
Mandy Kaplan:
It’s The Shadow. I’ve never even heard of The Shadow.
Clark Hill:
Yeah, it’s not the best pinball game, but it is a pinball machine. It’s fine.
Mandy Kaplan:
Well, I’m proud of myself for recognizing Alec Baldwin, because they show so many machines so fast.
My research team just got back to me — yes, 1994, The Shadow is a movie starring Alec Baldwin.
Clark Hill:
Oh wow, they are fast.
Mandy Kaplan:
My research team — aka my fingers.
Clark Hill:
Impressive.
Mandy Kaplan:
Does it ever get repetitive? I when I watch pinball — and I’ve played it — you’re just hitting the sides. Are there games with other levers and buttons and things to do, or are you just hitting the sides the whole time?
Clark Hill:
For the most part, most pinball machines just have two flipper buttons and the plunger to get the ball into play. But if you ever are playing a pinball machine and you’re starting to get bored, that means you are doing very well. At least in my case.
Mandy Kaplan:
Hello.
Clark Hill:
Yeah. If I’m like, I’m ready to play a different game, I must be having a very good game. Because it feels like I can make every shot, there’s no challenge to it. I know what I’m doing. I’ve already played all of the modes. I’ve played the wizard mode. I’m done. Why do I keep playing this machine?
Mandy Kaplan:
Are there games that are inherently just harder?
Clark Hill:
Yeah. I think of Iron Man as pretty difficult. Maybe that’s just me, but I’ve never had a very long game on Iron Man.
Mandy Kaplan:
When they introduce a woman in this movie, they call her a pin babe.
Clark Hill:
Well, I have not heard that term.
Mandy Kaplan:
That’s how they introduced her. Have you ever heard that term? I also thought, why not a pin doll? I feel like they missed the mark.
Clark Hill:
Pin doll — that’s much better.
Mandy Kaplan:
Pin doll. Thank you.
Clark Hill:
That’s much better.
Mandy Kaplan:
Game, set, match.
Clark Hill:
The female-only pinball leagues are called the Belles and Chimes League — Belles like B-E-L-L-E-S.
Mandy Kaplan:
I got it, yeah.
Clark Hill:
But pin doll feels like a real missed opportunity.
Mandy Kaplan:
I might have a future here.
Clark Hill:
I think so.
Mandy Kaplan:
I gotta go. I’m gonna start my own league.
Clark Hill:
I think that’s a good idea.
Mandy Kaplan:
One thing I noticed about this world — I compared this movie a lot to another movie I talked to you about briefly, King of Kong.
Clark Hill:
Uh huh.
Mandy Kaplan:
Right, that documentary. And if anybody wants to hear that episode of Make Me a Nerd, go way back in the library. My best friend Megan Isard introduced me to that documentary, which I love. But that really had a narrative with characters that we were invested in and following, whilst getting to know the world they were all in. And those people in that movie did not feel relatable to me. They felt a little too far gone.
Clark Hill:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
I’m having some memories and flashbacks. Potential kill screen, potential kill screen.
But all the people in Shoot Again seemed relatable. Seemed like people I would hang out with. Is that your experience out in the pinball world? Or did they pick the ones who would sell it the best?
Clark Hill:
Interesting. It’s a spectrum — pun intended. I think it’s the kind of activity that attracts a certain kind of person who just wants to do one thing for several hours without having to interact with other people. That’s the appeal for me, at least. So yeah, it’s mostly not the captain-of-the-football-team type who plays pinball. But it’s all types. I mean, it is largely 30, 40, and 50-something white males.
Mandy Kaplan:
As was the movie. They made an effort to show women. The guy from Stern — which is the leading company, it seems, from this documentary —
Clark Hill:
Yeah. Was it Gary? Gary Stern? Probably.
Mandy Kaplan:
They stopped identifying people with chyrons. Like they showed us their names once and then stopped, figuring, oh, you know who this is. And I was like, I don’t remember.
Clark Hill:
If you’re a pinball person, you know who most of those people are.
Mandy Kaplan:
But this guy was from the company, high up in the company, and he called out the pinball world. I’m quoting him — he said, it’s really only white males. He said it, not me.
Clark Hill:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
So I don’t want that. Don’t put that on me, Ricky Bobby.
Clark Hill:
It’s better than it used to be. It’s a lot more diverse than it used to be, I feel like. I play in a league here in Van Nuys and there are probably 70 people in the league, and I’d say it’s probably 25 or 30% female.
Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, that’s great.
Clark Hill:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
Well, I also think the games, as he says in the documentary, they appealed to men primarily. The themes on the games were geared towards young guys. But now that’s changing and they are making games that appeal to women and therefore getting women designers. So it makes sense that it took some time to evolve.
Clark Hill:
It’s not all just scantily clad women and heavy metal music.
Mandy Kaplan:
Well, that would appeal to some women.
Clark Hill:
Some women.
Mandy Kaplan:
Is there a rivalry between pinball and video games?
Clark Hill:
Is there a rivalry? No. There’s a lot of crossover. Everybody who plays pinball probably plays video games.
Mandy Kaplan:
Because I did an episode about Sega versus Nintendo.
Clark Hill:
Oh, sure.
Mandy Kaplan:
And that’s a real loyalty. You gotta pick your side.
Clark Hill:
I’m a Nintendo guy.
Mandy Kaplan:
Good to know. I feel like some of the old-school pinball guys mentioned that video games hurt the pinball industry. Once people knew they could have those graphics and that experience, why would you play the old pinball machine in the corner?
Clark Hill:
Definitely. Yeah. Right.
Mandy Kaplan:
Look at me not even being able to name a video game. Galaga.
Clark Hill:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
So that was the early 80s — pinball really took a nosedive because everyone preferred video games.
Clark Hill:
Yeah. Right. Once video games came out, it was like, oh, well, you can buy a video game for $50 instead of however much a pinball machine cost back then. Thousands of dollars, I’m sure.
Mandy Kaplan:
Well, I looked — they cost minimum $7,000 now.
Clark Hill:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
And that’s the basics. Then they went up from there. That’s crazy. How much does it cost to play? Still a quarter? Or is that old school?
Clark Hill:
It depends. Shout out to the owners of Ace Gogi Korean barbecue and pinball here in Van Nuys and West Hills, California, because most of their games are still 50 cents.
Mandy Kaplan:
Okay.
Clark Hill:
But that’s pretty rare out in the world. Typically everything’s a dollar.
Mandy Kaplan:
And is it a card, like at Dave & Buster’s? Like you have a card that you load?
Clark Hill:
If you go to a Dave & Buster’s type place, then yes. But most places where the true pinball nerds play, those places still take quarters.
Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah. What are you gonna do when coins are obsolete? Aren’t they trying to phase out coins?
Clark Hill:
If I could swipe a credit card, that would be fine too. But I love — there’s something about the quarter. I always have quarters on me, because what if I run into a pinball machine?
Mandy Kaplan:
Of course. Do you find them in the wild? Like at a car wash or something?
Clark Hill:
Oh yeah. You’re at a pizza place or you drive by a laundromat and you just see one in the corner — you’re like, stop the car.
Mandy Kaplan:
Okay. See, in my world that would not happen.
Clark Hill:
They don’t usually have them in laundromats anymore, but back when there was nowhere to play pinball, it was desperate times. Anywhere you could find one. I knew of some car washes.
Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah, there is that West Hills Pizza Company.
Clark Hill:
Ooh, do they still?
Mandy Kaplan:
I think so. There’s a back room.
Clark Hill:
Okay, we’ll check it out.
Mandy Kaplan:
That’s my hot tip for you. And good pizza.
Clark Hill:
Thank you.
Mandy Kaplan:
One thing I was thinking as I was watching this — if I could invent a pinball machine, what theme would I choose? Have you ever thought about that? I’m going to give you some time to think about it, because that’s a big question. I’ll say something and you’re gonna go, yeah, that exists. But my first thought was cats. Actual cats, not the musical, because that’s bullshit. But like, the cats are batting the ball around with their little paws.
Clark Hill:
I love that. And you don’t have to pay any licensing fees.
Mandy Kaplan:
That’s the thing.
Clark Hill:
I think you should pitch this.
Mandy Kaplan:
Shark Tank, here we come. Will you partner with me on this?
Clark Hill:
Totally.
Mandy Kaplan:
If you could invent one — is this a big ask?
Clark Hill:
Well, I’ve never thought of anything. I would have to combine some of my other hobbies like skiing or snowboarding or pickleball. There’s definitely at least one skiing pinball machine. I can’t think of a snowboarding one, but there’s probably one. But I don’t think there’s a pickleball one. How about a pickleball pinball?
Mandy Kaplan:
There it is.
Clark Hill:
Why not?
Mandy Kaplan:
Well done, us.
Clark Hill:
I’ll play cats and pickleball.
Mandy Kaplan:
If in fact there aren’t cats and pickleball machines already.
Clark Hill:
I’m in.
Mandy Kaplan:
That’s my real nerddom — cats. Farsight Pinball Arcade — do you approve? Or are you a purist? Because I actually downloaded it and tried to play on my phone. Is this something you’ve done?
Clark Hill:
Yeah. I don’t like video pinball. A lot of people I play pinball with love video pinball — they play it all the time. To me, there’s no appeal. I’d rather just play a video game that is not pinball.
Mandy Kaplan:
Okay.
Clark Hill:
It’s so fake. The whole point of pinball is it’s mechanical, it’s infinity frames per second. A video game just can’t replicate it.
Mandy Kaplan:
See, that’s the reaction I was anticipating. Being a purist — you want the real thing or nothing.
Clark Hill:
That’s how I feel.
Mandy Kaplan:
Well, I felt like an idiot because I couldn’t even get it to work on my phone. The ball would go up and I was like, what do I hit to make the flippers go? And I couldn’t figure it out.
Clark Hill:
I think that’s user error.
Mandy Kaplan:
What?
Clark Hill:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
No. Oh god, it took me about five minutes before I threw my phone into the river.
One of the guys says the new Iron Maiden has, quote, “no toy in it.” What does that mean?
Clark Hill:
Okay. So Iron Maiden — the very first game designed by Keith Elwin, my favorite designer. Great game. There’s a lot of pinball jargon. So a toy is — it’s often like the easy thing to shoot for. If you walk up to a pinball machine you’ve never played before, you’ll oftentimes have an action figure or a big Pokemon ball — like in the new pinball machine — and it’s like, I know I can shoot for this one thing, and every time I hit it, something makes a noise. So that’s easy. I don’t need to know all the rules.
So Iron Maiden has no toy.
Mandy Kaplan:
So the toy is that easy thing.
Clark Hill:
I never thought of that until he said it in the movie.
Mandy Kaplan:
Oh.
Clark Hill:
But yeah, I guess there’s no toy in Iron Maiden.
Mandy Kaplan:
Well, thank you for explaining that. I would be all toy. I’m so bad at stuff like this. I would obviously just go for the easiest thing to make it light up, get my little dopamine hit, and be on my way.
Clark Hill:
A toy makes it easy. If you don’t know what to do, it’s like — every time I hit the boat in Jaws, something happens, so it must be good.
Mandy Kaplan:
Where are you getting your information — like, ooh, a new game is coming out, or there’s an expo happening? Are there newsletters? Online forums?
Clark Hill:
I’m so steeped in it, I can’t help it. I don’t actually seek out that information necessarily. And the companies are very secretive about what they’re working on until a game releases. Usually you know almost nothing. You might know there’s a game coming in, say, winter of 2026. Maybe they tell you who’s designing it, but they don’t tell you the theme or release pictures until it’s ready to go.
Mandy Kaplan:
Are they afraid the idea will get stolen?
Clark Hill:
I’m not actually sure what the reasoning is. You’d think — build the buzz a little bit, release something at a time. But I don’t know.
Mandy Kaplan:
So when a new game arrives, you hear amongst your friends, like, oh, you haven’t been to that bar in a while, they just got a new game in — you gotta go play it.
Clark Hill:
Yeah, or I follow my local arcade on Instagram. If they get a new game in, they’ll post it. And it’s like, all right. Gotta go tonight.
Mandy Kaplan:
I’m imagining a bat phone by your bed.
Clark Hill:
No, because when a game releases, you know it’s coming, but even once it’s out, it’s not in the wild yet. They take a while to make.
Mandy Kaplan:
You said you know when a new game releases. How do you know? From your friends?
Clark Hill:
I also follow Stern Pinball on Instagram, so they’ll announce, hey, there’s this new game we made. And then from the other companies, yeah, everybody’s talking about it. Everybody’s like, oh, did you hear so-and-so is gonna make a new game?
Mandy Kaplan:
Were there ever magazines? When you were young, there must have been a magazine.
Clark Hill:
I’m sure, but not that I’m aware of. There are streamers and influencers. People stream pinball and there are pinball podcasts. I’m not into any of that really, but —
Mandy Kaplan:
Except this one.
Clark Hill:
Obviously this is my favorite podcast, but it’s not a pinball-per-se podcast.
Mandy Kaplan:
It is today.
Clark Hill:
Today it is.
Mandy Kaplan:
We covered almost everything I wanted to say, except — at the very end of the film, Dolly Parton! There’s a Dolly Parton pinball machine. I was like, that’s the one for me.
Clark Hill:
Yeah. I didn’t know you were a big Dolly fan.
Mandy Kaplan:
Oh yeah.
Clark Hill:
Oh, okay.
Mandy Kaplan:
Pretty big Dolly fan. Love her. I think she can do no wrong and that she’s an angel on earth.
Clark Hill:
Yeah. Well, I’ve played the Dolly Parton symbol.
Mandy Kaplan:
And now if she were holding cats.
Clark Hill:
Yeah. Unfortunately, the Dolly pinball is old enough that the technology isn’t like — it’s not like you get to listen to Jolene while you’re playing. That would be awesome.
Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah. Wait. That brings up a couple of questions for me. But first, before I get to those questions, I want to let everybody know that Make Me a Nerd is a production of TruStory FM, engineering by the peerless Pete Wright. My theme song — which should be Jolene — is Wonderstruck by Jane and the Boy. You can get me on Instagram at Mandy_Kaplan_Klavens, both with K’s, or TikTok at MandyMiscast. And please, please, if you’re listening on Apple Podcasts, leave a five-star review and write a message. It really helps more people find the podcast. And if you’re feeling extra supportive, please go to makemeanerd.com/join, and hitting that button will get you your episodes ad-free and early.
So some games do have music, right? Like if it’s Indiana Jones, for example, it would have the theme.
Clark Hill:
Yeah. Newer games have better technology. Godzilla features the song “Godzilla” by Blue Öyster Cult. I mean, come on.
Mandy Kaplan:
Is that the one with more cowbell?
Clark Hill:
Rockin’ and rollin’.
Mandy Kaplan:
No, what’s that song?
Clark Hill:
I don’t know if there’s cowbell on that one specifically.
Mandy Kaplan:
How do you handle it when you’re trying to focus and the table next to you is playing a loud song, or the guy next to you is screaming and swearing?
Clark Hill:
Yeah, it can take you out of the zone. Arcades are busy places, so sometimes people will just run into you while you’re playing, or I’ve run into people. People are playing and they’re kicking their legs out and swinging their arms and you get whacked. That can affect you. Or my phone rings in the middle of a good ball.
Mandy Kaplan:
And is there etiquette? Like, that’s just not done, man. And have you ever gotten into an arcade fight?
Clark Hill:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
I have to know. But tell me about the etiquette first.
Clark Hill:
Etiquette, yeah. You don’t want to stand over somebody’s shoulder and stare while they’re playing, unless you know them. You don’t want to talk to people while they’re in the middle of a game. I don’t know that there are written rules here, but there’s a code. A known code.
Mandy Kaplan:
And what if you want to play a game and someone’s on it? Do they get to stand there as long as they want? Or is it like, hey man, you played twice through — etiquette says it’s time to move on?
Clark Hill:
The old arcade rule — I don’t know if you were an arcade person back in the 80s, but you would put a quarter up on the machine to indicate you’re next.
Mandy Kaplan:
Oh yeah.
Clark Hill:
I’ve seen it done in pinball, but it’s not usually the thing. Usually if you finish a game and you get the sense that somebody else is waiting for the machine, you might finish, look around, and say, hey, you want to play? Or you want to jump in with me? But some people just play for a long time and don’t worry about it. I don’t know what the rules are around that.
Mandy Kaplan:
You said “jump in with me” — people play doubles? Like you pull the plunger and play that ball, then the next person plays the next ball?
Clark Hill:
Yeah, exactly. You can play most modern pinball machines with up to four players. In leagues and tournaments, you’ll often play in groups of four.
Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, that makes it more social.
Clark Hill:
So 75% of the time you’re socializing.
Mandy Kaplan:
Okay. So my last question — I teased it. Have you ever been in an arcade fight? Please say yes, God, please say yes.
Clark Hill:
An arcade fight? I’d have to make something up.
Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah, or like, I told you I was next, and then it comes to blows.
Clark Hill:
The closest thing I can think of is I’ve had to ask people to remove beers from on top of pinball machines. Or sometimes children from on top of pinball machines. It’s like —
Mandy Kaplan:
People place their kids on top of the machine?
Clark Hill:
Yeah. On a couple of occasions I’ve literally seen people put their toddler on top of the pinball machine. It’s like, this is glass. You’re on a glass surface, sir.
Mandy Kaplan:
That’s a disaster waiting to happen.
Clark Hill:
It’s never moms that do that. It’s always the dads.
Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, you said it, not me.
Clark Hill:
And sometimes there’s pushback. It’s like, no, you really should not do that. Please remove your child.
Mandy Kaplan:
When you get into a pinball fight, will you let me know? And we’ll do a follow-up brief episode — just here’s what happened, this guy said this, I said this, that’s why I have a black eye.
Clark Hill:
Yeah. I’ll try to record it.
Mandy Kaplan:
Have your friends film it.
Clark Hill:
I’ll be like, bro — let me just hit the record button before this escalates.
Mandy Kaplan:
Yep. Let me just grab your kid off the top and hold him as a human shield before you throw that first punch.
Clark! We did it!
Clark Hill:
We did it.
Mandy Kaplan:
We did a pinball podcast.
Clark Hill:
We crushed it. This was the best episode of Make Me a Nerd of all time.
Mandy Kaplan:
And I didn’t sing any of The Who’s Pinball Wizard. I’ve been restrained.
Clark Hill:
We’ll have to have a second pinball episode. This is gonna be so well received.
Mandy Kaplan:
Bring it on.
Clark Hill:
10 million lessons — the demand will come for more pinball in the future.
Mandy Kaplan:
And if it does, you’ll come back. You combined knowledge with passion. And that’s what makes somebody lean in and want to know more.
Clark Hill:
That’s right.
Mandy Kaplan:
Thank you.
Clark Hill:
Thank you.
Mandy Kaplan:
All right. Ladies and gentlemen and everyone in between, thank you for listening. Until next time.
