Matthew
Hello, and welcome to this episode of the Star Wars Generations Podcast. I’m joined by normal co-host Alex along with special guest Pete Wright to talk about Maul: Shadow Lord episodes one and two. Folks, what do we think?
Alex
The first episode especially exceeded all my expectations. I really appreciated how as a character Maul is meant to be this menacing figure, and they give him throughout — I feel like in a lot of the previous shows — not exactly the Darth Vader treatment, where they try to use his presence and his aura as sparingly as possible. And I appreciate that spirit in this show. It’s about Maul, but he’s not overpowered. So he maintains that mysterious, commanding presence.
Matthew
Yeah, just having that whole first fight scene where he’s barely there, and he enters with one of the best needle drops I’ve seen in Star Wars — the Duel of the Fates music, which I don’t think we’ve heard since Phantom Menace. That’s not really become his theme. And then all he does is jump at one guy.
Pete
That was a big move. It showed just how capable his recruits and minions are going to be throughout the show, because they didn’t even need him to do the entire caper at the beginning. I thought that was very effective.
Not the least of which — I want to start at the very beginning — the evolution of the art style on this thing. I don’t know how much you guys have talked about that in your past episodes, but the art style on this is extraordinary. It has really landed well on me as the new canon for how we’re seeing Star Wars animation. That entire opening caper was just so beautifully conceptualized, and the fact that Maul didn’t need to even be there…
Matthew
For real. Rook was part of his team, who we saw in season seven of the Clone Wars during the siege of Mandalore and all that, as well as a lot of other great people, the two — I keep wanting to call them Dothraki — the two Dathomiri, you know, this great team, and of course Spybot, who was one of Erin’s favorites.
We’ll be talking about more. But you’re right, the animation style — and I’m not someone who notices that as much as others because I just don’t have that kind of visual eye. But even I could tell it has just kept getting better and better. The Bad Batch was a significant step above the Clone Wars and Rebels, although they did the whitening of the Bad Batch, which wasn’t great. But other than that, there was so much good to be enjoyed there. And this just seems again like they’re pushing the envelope every single time we go back to Star Wars animation.
Alex
I noticed it right off the bat, even in the trailer — the way that Maul swings the lightsaber, the trail of the white beam, it almost feels like they’re painting as the characters move. It’s more realistic, more detailed, more depth to it, but also this artistic paint-stroke style of animation that really brings it to life even more. And that’s just in the details.
I mean, the actual planet — I thought it was Coruscant, but I don’t think it’s actually Coruscant.
Matthew
Yeah, it’s Janix. They mention that at the very beginning. I definitely thought it was Coruscant for a while too, but that’s part of why they’re saying they don’t want to get the Empire involved. It’s kind of like the planet we saw on Endor at the beginning.
Alex
Yeah, that’s why I thought so at first — at the very beginning of the episode you see the little circle rings and think, oh, it’s Coruscant. Classic Coruscant light pattern. But obviously the Empire is not very heavily present there. The point is, that city design was incredible.
Matthew
Yeah, very much so. It definitely gives that underworld feel — the sense of so much going on here. And can we just talk about how much they were pulling on the tropes of 90s and 2000s cop movies? Because first of all, the cop who has a son — being called Lawson is a little on the nose, I thought. But did you notice the stack of boxes with one of the corners cut off sitting in their apartment? And the first shot of the cops starting to chase them where they’re eating out of what looked like basically Chinese food cartons — the white paper carton. They’re very much going for a Wire or mob-movie, cop-movie kind of thing.
Pete
It’s Blade Runner. That’s really where we go for the noir space cop piece — working with the two boots, the able assistant who’s just kind of always on the case. It’s Seven. It has very much a grit and sadness to it. And I know that’s also partly influenced by Janix itself — this planet is independent from the Empire. We know that; they tell us don’t get the Empire involved at all, because that implies the Empire is not there. It is held together by these uneasy truces between crime syndicates.
It is an incredibly smart place for Maul to seed his revolution, because there’s no imperial oversight. And I think the resistance to calling in the Empire is probably about protecting that independence, not just jurisdiction. That puts our central characters in a state of conflict right away. In the first 38 minutes or so of episode one, I think the world building is really great for the show. It’s a better start, I think, than the Bad Batch was at this point.
Matthew
I loved the start of the Bad Batch, but I hear what you’re saying, and I fully agree about how good the world building is. Because for me with a show like this, yes, I care about Maul and I want the individual story, but I also want that thing where — I don’t want a documentary about what’s happening, although actually I do, but most of us don’t — I love getting to learn more about that world. We saw some of that in Andor. A lot of that was much further along; here we’re getting to see the early days when the Empire hasn’t fully taken over but is definitely trying to. I’m kind of curious — has it always been this kind of situation where different crime bosses are there? Is that a situation the Empire is kind of intentionally allowing, or maybe even encouraging, so that people can say, oh my god, it’s so out of control, we need the Empire to come in and take over?
Pete
It’s actually one of the questions I had for you guys, who’ve been talking about all these shows at such depth. I’m so glad you name-dropped Andor, because the show is being so favorably compared to Andor in terms of its willingness to let crime politics breathe in these first two episodes. I’m curious your thoughts on just how much the Star Wars small-screen canon has been influenced — or is being influenced — by what Andor delivered, which was totally radically different than anything we’d seen before.
Alex
I feel like a lot of the tropes of classic cop stories — and Blade Runner came to mind for me as well, Pete — I do think that as far as the realm of Andor goes, Lucasfilm saw a lot of success in this era of lawlessness, and people are drawn to those types of stories. And that’s why I think this show is going back to that — taking those elements and using them to build Maul’s own little criminal empire from there.
Matthew
Yeah, I would really agree with that. I think it’s definitely very Andor-inspired. And I’ll say I think it’s very Acolyte-inspired too — there was obviously so much debate over that show. The internet consensus was that everybody hated it, but more and more people are coming out saying no, the algorithm wasn’t showing you the positive comments, but we loved this show.
I think it really is the mix of both: the focus on the villain, the focus on the dark side, and — like in the Acolyte — having a Jedi master who puts their Padawan in a position where the Padawan starts to really doubt that this person has their best interests in mind, starts to really wonder if being part of the Jedi is a good idea, and that makes them very vulnerable to Maul. I think it really is a melding of those two — pushing villain-focused storytelling and pushing the darkness, the grittiness, the underworld, particularly in a time when the Jedi are no longer there. It makes sense the Jedi aren’t there, the Republic isn’t there. The trains aren’t running on time. I love that Mussolini quote — fascism flourishes, and it will often intentionally create times of chaos so that people think, well, I miss having some freedoms, but at least now the trains run on time, the trash is getting collected, now I’m not afraid to walk down the street. And so yeah, I think it’s blending all of that in a really great way, and I’m really looking forward to seeing how it develops.
Pete
There’s a secondary question here that I feel is a little missing but that I’m excited about — which is, to what degree are we still fascinated by Maul as a character? It feels like a character that until Filoni, we really didn’t have anybody who could commit to the complexity of Darth Maul on screen. That is the lingering question I have: is Maul enough to be the title character over the next eight episodes? I think heavily, yes.
Alex
Yeah, I think Maul has solidified himself — partially due to Filoni’s writing and Sam Witwer’s performance — as one of the greatest villains in not just Star Wars but science fiction. When he jumped on screen in Phantom Menace, I remember as a kid thinking, who the hell is this devil-looking guy? But he was so badass looking. And since then, they’ve crafted this super crazy, chaotic narrative that fits his personality, and he just keeps finding ways to flourish in these chaotic pockets. He’s mysterious enough that there’s so much we don’t know about him, and every time I see him, I want more.
Even though I already know how his story ends and how it begins, more or less, I want to know everything in between. And I believe it’s the first Star Wars show ever renewed for a second season before the first season even aired. So we’re getting another eight episodes after this, and I think it could go on for a few more seasons and I’d be happy with it.
Matthew
I am nervously optimistic. I think you’re right, there’s so much of his story to tell. Part of it is that he was actually a really popular character in the Legends books, which I didn’t know much about — Pete, I don’t know how much you’d read those. We actually did an episode with Jonah Kellman a couple weeks ago about that. I think that’s where part of the interest came from. After Phantom Menace, a lot of people were just like, well, he’s dead, he’s gone, he was cool, but there’s nothing there. And part of that was because Ray Park’s performance — he was a phenomenal physical combat performer, but I don’t think his acting really made the character interesting. Sam Witwer has basically reinvented the character in a fairly different but fascinating way.
My caution is something I’ve talked about before: the problems with prequels. And I think Maul is doing something even harder — it’s the problem of being the middle chapter when we already know the beginning and the end. We’ve seen him in the Clone Wars, we know where he was at the end of that, and we know where he winds up in Rebels — still very desperate to have an apprentice because it hasn’t worked up until now.
And I know it’s a controversial topic, but part of why Kenobi didn’t work for me — and for a lot of other people — is that we had the epic fight between Obi-Wan and Vader at the end of Revenge of the Sith, and then we have A New Hope: “When I left you, I was but the learner.” Fitting Kenobi into the middle felt like it changed that. So I’m a bit nervous that where Maul ends up in Rebels means there’s not enough room for him to grow. But I do think there’s a lot more space than there was with Kenobi. Especially if they keep him somewhat in the background, with a lot of the focus on the cop and on these two Jedi on the run, and use Maul as the overarching character but not necessarily the one with the most screen time — I think that’s a way to avoid the problem.
Alex
I think you’re right. I’m a Kenobi lover.
Pete
I am too. I’m on Team Alex. I was a Kenobi lover, but I think the sandwich-prequel warning is important because in episode two they dropped the Darth Sidious line. So we know there’s going to be some intention around that relationship in this first season — they’ve already hung a lantern on it. We’re going to have Maul working toward hopefully some sort of appearance, whether in spirit, in name, or in presence, around that relationship. But we don’t know how that relationship ends yet in canon terms. And I think it is extraordinarily challenging when you think about what the writers are trying to do — writing themselves into tiny little boxes. As a cultural and creative experiment, I’m fascinated by how they are going to write themselves out of it, because I can’t see it. That makes the show both much more interesting to watch than I expected, and dramatically more anxiety-producing.
Matthew
Exactly. And I’ll say again, something I think is very intentional: right now, except for the Pykes who appear toward the end of episode two, most of this is local crime lord stuff. We’re not dealing with Black Sun yet, we’re not dealing with some of these other groups. And most importantly, the words Crimson Dawn have not yet been spoken — because spoilers from movies that are ten years old, we know that by Solo, which is basically the next time Maul shows up in canon after this period, roughly eight years into the Empire, with this being about two or three years in — he’s the head of Crimson Dawn. That’s kind of the next point he has to get to. I think they’re going to have to keep Crimson Dawn in the background, maybe through the end of this season or even next season. Because if Crimson Dawn comes to the fore in episode three, there’s really nowhere for him to go.
Alex
Maybe — though they may have name-dropped it already: when Lawson had that meeting with the woman he was talking to, she mentioned Crimson Dawn as one of the syndicates that Maul formerly ruled. So it has been referenced.
Matthew
You’re right. So they may have name-dropped it in that regard, but neither of these two local crime bosses are part of Crimson Dawn. The Pykes are the only group that’s shown up so far.
Alex
Do we think that — we know in Solo that he eventually becomes the leader of Crimson Dawn again — but at this current point, do you think his goal is to recombine all of them? Because to me, it looks like he’s trying to destroy a lot of the competition so he can assume the mantle as head of Crimson Dawn once the other crime families are out of the picture. It doesn’t seem like his plan is to rejoin everyone — it’s more like burn everything to the ground, then he rules the ashes and rebuilds with the Mandalorians. That would be his plan, I guess.
Pete
That feels like an in-character motivation that is very clear to me. I can absolutely see how that would fit Maul’s original character design — to rebuild from ashes something completely bespoke to him. In terms of a Maul vibe check, that feels on the mark.
Matthew
And I think there’s an extent to which Maul is playing checkers, not chess. Maul really wants people to think he’s playing chess, and on some level he is, but it’s really very simple. Erin and I talked about it in our last episode a couple days ago: he has three fundamental goals right now. He wants to get revenge on all the people who wronged him. He wants to build something toward challenging Sidious and maybe eventually taking over — either becoming a Sith again or wiping out the Sith and starting a new dark side. And he wants to become the head of something like Crimson Dawn. And I think we’re already starting to see those three goals might not always be in alignment — they might come into conflict. Part of the story is going to be people like Rook and others who are following him getting a little frustrated when there’s one path that really establishes Crimson Dawn and partly involves allying with someone who screwed him over, and another path where he kills that person for revenge, and he chooses revenge first. I think that could be a really interesting part of his character development. He’s very good at chess, but he really wants to play checkers — he really wants to flip the board sometimes. It’s going to be fun to see.
Pete
I think he’s playing Monopoly.
Alex
I also want to say — maybe you talked about this with Erin, Matthew — but at no point has it been hard confirmed that Rook is the Armorer. The more I watch her character with Maul and hear the voice, the more I feel like that’s where this is going. I feel like there’s been a fan theory for a while, but I think it could be confirmed by the end of the Maul series.
Matthew
I kind of don’t want that, because it makes the universe feel smaller than I think it should. But I always got the sense that the Armorer and her group are kind of an offshoot that has been somewhat inspired by the things that historically inspired the people who became Death Watch — not a direct connection to Death Watch, but I’m not sure.
Alex
The reason I say it though is — think about the Armorer and a lot of the other Mandalorians: they have the Maul horns on some of their helmets. They’re clearly some remnant left over from Death Watch. When Boba Fett enters and they say that Din is a Child of the Watch, he’s Death Watch — to me it all points back to Death Watch, and that she was part of it and is now a leader. I don’t know, all the signs point directly to that. And to me it doesn’t make the world feel smaller in the way I usually find that complaint valid in Star Wars. That would make a lot of sense and would keep the Death Watch line a little easier to understand. Because otherwise, where else would this mystic leader come from — someone who doesn’t exist in any of the previous content, who is now ruling the remnants of Death Watch? Why would they follow her? It makes more sense if she was already in a position of power.
Pete
I’m so firmly on the side of that complaint about the world being too small in Star Wars that it’s hard for me to imagine, because I’m not sure I want it. I like the idea — especially after the fall of Mandalore — of the fractious relationship between Mandalorian groups being exaggerated. I want them not to go back to a known quantity, but to give us more fuel for future spinoff stories. And we have to address the Star Wars legacy connection — the original George Lucas connection — like who is Devon? Is this a Darth Talon knockoff? It feels like the consensus is that’s what we’ve got. But does that make the world bigger or smaller?
Matthew
I definitely hear what you’re saying, Alex, and I think it’s certainly a possibility — and I would rage-quit watching if proven wrong. I think we’ve talked about this during our coverage of the last season of Mandalorian: I’m kind of invested in this idea of a Mandalorian diaspora, where these different isolated groups have each been doing their own thing as beliefs are passed down and evolving. So I really prefer the idea that Death Watch and the Watch have a common ancestor — that both of them can trace their roots to another group a couple of generations back without having been in direct contact. But it’s really possible.
Let’s talk about the Jedi that we have — the four hundred. My transitions are a little obvious, but I like to help guide us along. We start with some feedback actually — a listener named Jamie wrote in. Jamie wrote: “Love the pod and I’m so excited to hear what you have to say after each pair of episodes. I got to say I was so angry at Master Ekiodoki telling Devon they have to beg — letting her be arrested, saving the bridge I can understand, but I can see how all of it adds up to make Devon a lot more vulnerable to Maul than either Ahsoka or Ezra were. He’s looking lost at the end of the episode — do you think he’ll get more involved?”
Alex
Where did we get the name of the Jedi master?
Matthew
It’s in the episode. Jamie wrote it in to me, which is great, but I double-checked — it’s in the credits and such.
Alex
Oh, I was like, I do not remember seeing a name.
Matthew
It was not said, as far as I can tell. You could call him Doc Dokey.
Alex
I mean, I won’t lie — that was one of my only complaints about the series so far. At the very beginning, for a little while, it felt a bit on the nose and hokey: the Padawan is disgruntled, they need to get food, and then the Jedi interferes — but also kind of on his own whenever he wants, without listening to his younger female apprentice. It just felt very much like what a Jedi would do. And the fact that she ended up in Maul’s clutches because she stole something and got caught felt a little hokey — like they needed to get her in the right place. I don’t yet have a connection with this master, so I can’t make a full decision about him, but his decision-making was weird to me.
Pete
He’s an interesting character. You get some obvious Yoda vibes, also a little Henry the Turtle, and he’s got a really interesting character design. I’m right with you though, Alex — I don’t have a connection with him, and so far everything he’s done has been deeply predictable. He stands aside when things happen, then the bridge falls and he’s right in the way protecting his Padawan, trying to get her back when she’s been kidnapped. The absolute tropiest distraction for a Jedi is to pull down a bridge or do something to the public.
What I think is interesting is the way the usual parental relationship between Jedi and Padawan is fractured because of how the Jedi have been forced into the shadows. It’s not just Anakin-style resentment. Devon Izara knows they have more power they could be using to survive, and she’s being told not to use it in a time of great strife. That conflict is fascinating to me, and I hope they don’t make it too easy for Devon to discover this outlet for her power. Right now it feels a little easy, but I’m open.
Matthew
I see it a little bit differently. I definitely agree it’s tropey. I feel like they’re painting with broad brushstrokes, and if the story were focused on them I’d want a lot more detail and depth. I do think the bridge thing is a trope, but it’s one we’ve specifically seen Maul do before. In the Clone Wars, one of the ways Maul tells Savage how to get Jedi attention is by harming innocents — he talks about their empathy as a weakness. This idea that Master Daki is going to save random people on a bridge instead of his own apprentice is something Maul actually knows. So yeah, it’s tropey, but it really fits the character.
For me, the thing that really made it work was the way that whole story is then paired with how Maul is needling her — she keeps saying she wants to be let go, and him saying, “I’m disturbed by your lack of perspective, and you can leave whenever you want.” Because to me, that story says she’s internalized so much from her Master that she doesn’t think in terms of the powers she can use. She thinks she’s in a prison instead of thinking: wait, I’m a Jedi. This isn’t a real prison. I can get out anytime I want.
Alex
It goes very similar to the talk he had with Ezra. So to me, it feels like Maul is using the same playbook. And that’s part of Maul’s failing as a character — one of his weaknesses is he keeps trying the same thing, trying to get a Padawan, trying to find that connection he never had because he kept being cast aside. He tries to manipulate people to be with him. And maybe in the grand scheme of the story, he succeeds here — I think we kind of know if he succeeds with her eventually. And then what he thinks he can succeed with again with Ezra — and that actually maybe deepens Ezra’s character indirectly because Ezra was able to resist. Maybe there’s a through line that ends up making multiple characters even stronger. But at this current moment, it feels similar to what he’s done in the past. I’m curious how it’s going to differ eventually.
Matthew
I mean, if it does work with her somewhat, that would then make sense of why he’d try it with Ezra. And that might be where the sandwich prequel actually kind of works.
Alex
And then in that case, it would impress me more that Ezra resisted it, because Maul succeeded in the past. Maybe Maul’s playing 4D chess here.
Matthew
Well, part of it to me is also the contrast I see between Master Daki and Kanan Jarrus. In a way, Daki is troubled when he’s trying to really hold on to the Jedi ideals after the Jedi have fallen. Granted, he was already a master. Kanan was a Padawan. But Kanan kind of walks away from it all for a while. And in the novel — I can’t remember the name of it off the top of my head, but I’ll make sure there’s a link in the show notes — that’s where he and Hera meet, and Hera kind of pulls him back into being a Jedi. I’m hopeful this is 4D chess. It is possible that Filoni is trying to play 4D chess and is actually playing checkers. So we’ll just have to see.
Alex
This is the first show released since Filoni took over as chief creative officer, right?
Matthew
Yeah. A lot of money riding on this, Dave.
Matthew
The last thing I’ll say about this — and we can move on to other things — is that either this is a real insight or I’m totally projecting. But as someone who has studied religious movements a lot, one thing I’ve always been interested in is what happens to the believers in a religious group or a cult when it all falls apart. What happens to the people after Jonestown who were the ones who didn’t take the poison, or after Waco, or something like that. And to me, seeing Daki trying so hard to act like everything is normal and he’s still going to uphold the Jedi strictures — even though that whole world is gone, even though there is no one to answer to anymore — it rings very true. It might be painted in broad brushes, but it feels very accurate that Kanan Jarrus would go one way, Obi-Wan would go another way, and someone else would go the way Daki is going.
Pete
Yeah. I think I can tie all of those points directly back to: a lot of money riding on this, Dave. If for no other reason than to indicate that this feels like a new beginning for so many of these characters — and what a kind of cognitive dissonance that is, that it’s actually a new beginning to a thing we already know how it ends, to call back our previous point. But by and large, I had a ball with these first two episodes. It scratched a real need for me to see this kind of animation and this kind of animated storytelling from the team.
I’m thrilled with it. And I have to say — Gideon Adlon plays Devon, and in the second episode, her mom, who is the legendary voice actor Pamela Adlon, plays the informant who gives up information on where to find Devon. So we had a really delightful real-life mother-daughter dynamic happening in there.
Alex
Checkers. Yeah, checkers.
Matthew
Let’s talk about what is many people’s favorite character — certainly Erin’s. And we have some feedback here. The fact that the feedback comes from Chopper Fan Girl may tell you the direction we’re going. Chopper Fan Girl writes in: “I’m so glad Erin talked about Spybot. He’s my favorite character so far. Although, as Erin pointed out, we have no idea what Spybot’s gender pronouns are.” She writes: “Is he what Chopper would be if he went to the dark side? Do you think Spybot was designed like that, or is he so maniacal due to a reprogramming error like K-2SO was?”
Pete
I don’t know.
Alex
I feel like it’s a programming thing.
Pete
Yeah, I feel like it’s — like, did Spybot turn villain just because it was a bad day on an engineering desk somewhere, and the wrong program showed up at the wrong time? I don’t know. It falls into one of the grand tropes of Star Wars animation: all the principal characters tend to be played very straight, and then when you get the soldiers, they scream a lot and yell things like, “Come on, we’ve got to get him!” — really bland, excited language. Spybot is kind of right down the middle, because it’s all groans and whistles but with more vocalization than I feel like we get from other non-humanoid droids. I still find it a utility player for me — I think it’s cute. I did not attach to it.
Alex
My main take was that I did enjoy the foil between Spybot and — what’s his name — Tooboot? No — Spybot. Yeah. Tooboot and Spybot together. I thought it was kind of funny because they were so polite. Wait — is it Twoboot or Tooboot?
Matthew
I’m so happy you noticed. I thought it was Chewboot.
Alex
Yeah, that makes sense. But the foil between the two of them was funny because the child droid is straight and narrow, like “we have to report to the Empire, I don’t drink caf, I’m just sharing this moment with you.” And then Spybot is just — I’m like, all right. Kind of funny.
Matthew
Yeah. I do know that in the Legends canon, they told us that Maul designed the spy droids he has in Phantom Menace. So it’s certainly possible he also designed Spybot. But I like the idea that Spybot either went the route of K-2SO, or went the direction Chopper would have gone if Hera hadn’t been there to say, whoa, buddy — a little bit of war crimes as a treat, but not quite so much.
War crimes as a treat. Hey, we’ve got our episode title now.
There we go. Well, thank you to Chopper Fan Girl and Jamie. Please keep writing in with your thoughts — you can find all the ways to contact us in the show notes. Please take a look at that. Any last things you guys want to touch on, or questions, characters, or moments you want to lift up?
Pete
Well, I just want to say I’m curious — knowing what you know about canon about upcoming episodes, the chapter titles are “Whispers in the Unknown,” chapter three, and “Pride and Vengeance,” chapter four. That’s what’s coming in our next pair. Pride and Vengeance. Does any of that give you anything? I feel like we’re going to Babe Ruth it — I’d like you to call the shots. What happens next?
Matthew
I will say that Pride and Vengeance is where we get into what Maul’s real goal is and how those goals start coming into conflict. I’ll even directly call the shot: there’s going to be some kind of conflict with Rook, where Rook is essentially saying, our goal should be to take over and win, while Maul wants to beat the other guy. There’s a great line from The West Wing about how “I want to win” and “I want to beat the other guy” are two different goals. When you’re focused on beating the other guy — which, by the way, is kind of the definition of the dark side, you know, do you fight against what you hate or do you fight to protect what you love? — that’s what Pride and Vengeance is going to be about: Maul caught on that tension, and maybe having some conflict with Rook.
Pete
But what did we find most interesting as a narrative flex? Because Maul already said in episode two to Devon, “you and I are on the same side.” That sets up this entire ten-episode universe as vastly more complex than anything we’ve seen either before or after, which may make it interesting.
Alex
I would just say that this is why Maul never got tiring for me — he’s predictable, but also unpredictable. He’s predictable in the note that he has said to Ezra, to Ahsoka, to Devon, to everyone he tries to make a Padawan of: “we’re on the same side, we have the same goal, we have the same enemy.” And I genuinely believe that when Maul is chaotic and believes he should rule, he also believes that is actually the right thing for the universe — that the universe would be better off if he were in charge.
Matthew
He still thinks he’s the hero of his story.
Alex
Yes. Yes. And I think that hubris is what gets in his own way half the time. It’s so much fun to watch, and it’s sad to watch.
Matthew
Well — because it’s not exactly hubris. He is a literal Cassandra. He knows the truth. Everything he said to Ahsoka about Sidious taking over, he was right. Everything he says to Ezra, and then later to Obi-Wan, he’s right.
Pete
And to generate a proper Cassandra complex, you really need to study Greek mythology more.
Alex
I agree with that. I heard this one.
Pete
So Cassandra was cursed because no one she told would ever believe her, and she was going insane — it was very, very sad.
Matthew
Which is what’s happening with Maul. He knows the future, but he wants to get really murdery about it.
Pete
So really what we’re talking about is a methods problem.
Alex
Yeah. And to answer your original question, Pete — “Whispers in the Unknown” feels very mystical to me, like that might be more of a focus on Devon or the Jedi. Maybe give us a little more insight into Devon’s headspace, her upbringing, who she is. Because we end episode two with this very pensive look as she exits the jail she’s escaped from, and she has a choice now: does she try to go back to her Jedi master, go off on her own, or join Maul? There are a lot of options in front of her.
To me, it’s going to be an episode where we learn more about her and what her mindset and story are. And I do feel like in very classic Filoni fashion, we are going to get another Order 66 flashback to see how she survived. The question was literally asked point blank — how did she survive? And we’re going to find out.
I feel like every new Star Wars thing that comes out, we see Order 66 from a new angle. Don’t get me wrong — there’s been no bad depiction of it, and I do enjoy getting a few more pieces together. But at a certain point, I’m like, all right, we’ve seen the Jedi die too many times. Stop traumatizing me.
Matthew
I have to say, I have this image now — somewhat affected by my love of 80s sci fi. In A New Hope, there’s that member of the Empire military — I don’t remember if this particular guy is a general or an admiral, I think he’s Admiral Motti, but I could be wrong — who challenges Darth Vader and talks about “your sad devotion to that ancient religion” and “your sorcerer’s ways.” They talk about this as though the Jedi have been gone for generations.
And I feel like if you think about the movie Back to the Future — where as Marty changes the past, the photo of his family starts fading — I have this image of that Motti saying that line, and it’s fading Back to the Future-style as Filoni keeps adding more and more people who are using this ancient religion closer and closer to the time that Motti says it. I don’t mind it, but I feel like we’re getting a little crowded.
Alex
I would say there’s collective memory. And also — even the captain in this show calls it a “laser sword,” not a lightsaber. Like you can’t, no matter what Palpatine does, fully erase the Jedi from collective memory. But by the time A New Hope happens, it’s been twenty years — and something that happened twenty years ago can feel very ancient. There’s still a faded memory of events from that time. I feel like it doesn’t bother me as much, as long as it continues to be isolated events where people could react like, oh, that was kind of weird, but maybe they don’t put it all together.
Because if you think something’s extinct, and you and I are out on a hike together and we see a dodo bird, you would never believe it was a dodo bird — because you’ve been told they are extinct. You’d think, oh, it’s just a weird-looking bird.
Matthew
You don’t have a memory of seeing one. And I think for someone your age, twenty years ago may seem ancient.
Alex
I was nine. Yeah. I remember the Iraq War pretty well. And I want to be clear — I’m no longer complaining about this. I am now having fun with it.
Matthew
It’s all ridiculous now. Filoni is just having fun with it. I see Filoni’s world and we’re all living in it, and I’m okay with that.
Alex
I never thought I’d get another Star Wars movie again. I am so happy getting all of this, even if it’s a little on the nose.
And the last thing I want to say about the two episodes — one more thing I wrote down that I thought was like, okay, we need to let this trope die: they gave Maul another hallway scene. Yeah. For the love of God. It was amazing when Vader did it in Rogue One. It was incredible when they harkened back to it with Luke in Mandalorian. Stop. Just stop there. Even when Maul did it in the last season of Clone Wars, I was like, okay, this is still kind of cool. I think we’re reaching the end. And now it’s the same character doing it again. Come on, y’all — the hallway scene was badass. It’s over now.
Matthew
Right. I felt that way.
Pete
Also harsh words for the hallway scene.
Matthew
And again, kind of as a homage to 90s cop-and-robbers movies — there were enough car chases, I’m done with car chases too. And there’s going to be at least
Alex
from what I can tell — unless they changed it from the little scene they showed us — there’s going to be a hallway scene in the new Mando movie. But they just keep using hallway scenes over and over again.
Pete
Bigger hallway, wider hallway, maybe better.
Pete
Maybe there’s a dinosaur in it.
Matthew
I can’t remember — it was literally in the last couple of months, some action movie or something — where I complained about how a character got a hallway scene and did not need one. It was ridiculous. But I don’t even remember what it was.
Pete
The thing I keep thinking about, speaking of collective memory, is: what happens when Lawson suddenly remembers the last time he saw a laser sword, and the flashback is actually from the General Grievous fight on Utapau? And it turns out he was there — he was a soldier in the Clone Wars, because his age would be about right. And his memory is fallible. I think that would be — this is one of those retcon things that can be frustrating — but again, it’s all about how well Filoni plays the hits.
I don’t have the same opinion as you guys about hallway scenes. I actually love hallway scenes, from the first time I saw one in Oldboy. If there is a way to orchestrate, block, and design great action beats that we’ve seen before in a new way, I am here for it.
Alex
It has to be well-blocked. To me, the one in the Clone Wars was better — this almost felt like shot for shot like the Rogue One scene again. It just felt like too much.
Pete
Yeah. Soldiers screaming. I hate that.
Matthew
And for me, the original hallway scene of this kind is from Daredevil. For the most part, I think animation can be just as good as live-action — I shouldn’t even say “real TV,” I should say live-action. And I love that the show is animated. But part of what made the Daredevil hallway scene so incredible was that it was all one shot, with people going in and out of rooms — it was an incredible act of choreography. None of which translates to animation.
To create an animated hallway scene is so different. So yeah — we’ll see if we get another one. We’ll see. It might be that we love it.
Pete
I am sending you the YouTube clip. They’ve got the Oldboy corridor fight scene. You have to watch it, because it is the scene on which everything we’ve talked about is based.
Alex
I have one more comment, sorry, Matthew. The thing I thought was really interesting: when Lawson first gets the hologram of Maul and finds out that the ISB wants all information immediately — the last we saw of Maul before all this crime stuff was Palpatine saying, “I have a plan for you,” and then letting him go. And then Maul has started building his little empire with the Mandalorians, and he keeps slipping away. But clearly Palpatine still wants him, whether dead or as a puppet. At some point in this series, ISB is going to get involved, and we’re going to see some meeting about why they want Maul or why they’re so worried about him. Because clearly he’s still on Palpatine’s mind if all information has to go directly to the ISB.
Matthew
Well, and one thing we talked about a couple of episodes ago in the primer for this was how Palpatine specifically lets Maul live and says, “You’re going to be a useful tool for me.” I think to the extent Palpatine is aware of what’s happening on this planet, it is exactly what he wants — again, the more chaos that happens, the more people are going to say, oh, Empire, please come take care of this, we don’t want to live with all this crime. And I think that’s going to be the sad irony: Maul thinks he has this whole plan to take down Sidious, and he’s actually doing exactly what Sidious wants.
To me, that’s the ultimate tragedy — and this is something from the Legends era we can speak to: Maul has not been trained to be a Sith Lord, he’s been trained to be an attack dog. He wants to be playing chess, but he’s never really been given those skills. The idea that he thinks he has this grand plan to take down Sidious while actually doing exactly what Sidious wants — that is his Greek tragedy, his fatal flaw.
Alex
And you think about his name: Darth Vader, Darth Father. Darth Tyranus, Dark Tyrant. Darth Maul — literally attack dog. Go maul, go attack. Yeah.
Pete
Yeah, exactly. And all the time, Darth Sidious is playing Candyland while everyone else is playing checkers and chess.
Alex
Sidious is up there playing Candyland.
Matthew
Even so — Candyland is a completely deterministic game. When you sit down to play Candyland, it has already been decided who’s going to win. Because you’re drawing cards from a fixed deck.
Pete
It’s basically tic-tac-toe. It’s a deck of cards you never shuffle.
Matthew
So if you sit down to play Candyland and I look through the deck, I can predict who’s going to win. There’s no decision-making by the players.
Alex
There’s no way to outwit the luck. It’s all luck. It’s gambling. You’re teaching kids gambling.
Pete
That’s why Vegas is such a hotspot for candy.
Matthew
Now, if only there was a podcast that talked about variance and how people don’t understand it. I’m working on that podcast now — Paul and I will hopefully get it kicked off soon, either on this network or another. So we will see.
All right. Well, thank you both so much. Thank you to our listeners. Please keep sending in feedback. Please keep sending in your thoughts, and we’ll try to post some polls for people to respond to. Find all the ways to follow us on the Star Wars Generations Podcast website, which is of course part of the TruStory FM family of podcasts. Pete does a bunch of great things on there — I’m on the Marvel Movie Minute with Pete. Pete also does a fantastic show about ADHD, which I think a number of the characters in the show could probably benefit from. There’s all sorts of great stuff there. So please check all that out. TruStory.fm, TheEthicalPanda.com, and Star Wars Generations Podcast.com. From myself, these two wonderful people, and Erin — thank you all so much. We have spoken.
Alex
We have spoken.
