Matthew: Hello and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. I’m coming to you from the People’s Republic of Minneapolis where we are currently under siege by ICE forces. And if you’re like, why in the hell are we talking about politics so early on, friends, that’s why we’re talking about this today.
I’m here with Jessica Plummer. We’re in a moment of kind of national crisis, not just because of what’s happening in Minneapolis, but it’s the current moment. And as you well know, comic books, movies, TV shows, all this stuff has always been a reflection of what’s happening in the real world. And people love to talk about what would superheroes do in different situations. And that’s what we’re talking about today. We’re talking about how would the heroes, how would the villains that we love and we love to hate and all that think about what’s happening right now in Minneapolis, the United States, and Venezuela, in possibly Greenland. Just all around the world. It’s myself, Matthew, here with Jessica Plummer. Jessica, how are we doing today?
Jessica: As well as I can be, given, as you said, we are in crisis.
Matthew: Yeah, I was away for a couple of days, but it’s not abated. We just don’t have snow here, but more importantly, ICE is still here. My child’s daycare has had people show up at it. Happily, the daycare owner was happy to be like, no, I’m going to give you our name and our identification number, and that’s it. We’re not, it’s not part of the fraud nonsense, but just, you know, they just want to ask people. We have had workers who go there, who I’ve been showing up.
So, but obviously, well, beyond that, it is brought tragedy to the families, is brought tragedy to families of Renee Good and Keith Porter and just kind of screwed up a whole bunch of things. And where we want to begin, your favorite is Superman. And what do you think Superman? The immigrant himself would think of all of this.
Jessica: Yeah, yeah, I’ve been thinking about this a lot since you proposed the topic. And, you know, I think one of the things that makes this a difficult question to answer is with a few notable exceptions, superheroes exist in this weird space where they try to be literal social justice warriors while being somehow apolitical. As if, you know, fighting for justice, like you have to define what justice means, right?
Like what, what are you fighting for? And Superman in particular, Superman and Captain America are the two big ones here are often less, when people talk about what they would do in a given situation, it’s less about what the, what’s in character given the characters actual history in various media and more what the person speaking feels. So like I can tell you what I think that my Superman would do, but I am sure that there are plenty of ICE agents who think that Superman would be, I don’t know, throwing on a mask and harassing brown people, I guess.
That’s never happened in a comic, but sure, you’d think that. But yeah, like you said, like Superman is literally an undocumented immigrant. He is a refugee of a world that was destroyed in almost every version of events because people would not listen to someone saying, Hey, we’re destroying our world. He is a journalist who believes in the truth. He, his tagline since the 40s, one of his taglines has been champion of the oppressed. So yeah, I, I think Superman would be very opposed to what’s happening in Minneapolis and across the country. Yeah.
Matthew: Across the country and across the world. And I’m glad you brought up Captain America because for me, you know, one thing I always wrestled with in terms of Superman and it’s something Captain America, though I knew very little of him. This is when I was, you know, years ago before, you know, the Mark. Freedom of CO. Yeah. MCU and all that is they were both these representations of America and Superman. I now understand like that they’ve moved away from that, but you know, he was truth, justice in the American way and Captain America is literally there in the name. And, you know, I’ve never been a real rah rah, you know, go United States.
I came up in the 80s when Reagan was invading every South American country. He can figure out a way to do so. But I think what really kind of struck me was when I came to understand that in many of their versions, and I kind of like what you said at the beginning about how like at the end, this is just, there’s no one definitive Superman. There’s no one definitive Captain America.
People can think to see find their interpretations. We’ll talk about Punisher a bit because they’re at least the author specifically said no. When I say Jensen police and stuff like that, I think punishers on their side.
They’re wrong. We don’t have that with Superman, but certainly the number of versions in which I’ve seen both of them have this attitude of it’s not that I support the American government right or wrong. It’s that I support the ideals that America proposes that it stands for. And in a way, I think, I don’t know if this is true of you, but I certainly grew up with some of that.
You know, and I in the 80s kind of a lot of it kind of strict away. But I have some sympathy for the idea of, you know, losing that mythology. And I come to really see both of them as characters who are saying like, it’s it that that sometimes the most American thing you can do is to stand up to the own American government and say, you are failing to live up to truth and justice of the American way or, you know, however you phrase it. Is that kind of the way you see those two characters as well?
Jessica: Yeah. Well, I would say more Captain America than Superman. Because the other thing about Superman is that he has he’s changed a lot over the course of his existence. So when he was first created, he was very much like a populist rabble rouser who was constantly fighting corrupt politicians and general corruption and exposing.
Matthew: In episode one, he fights a landlord who’s taking advantage of his immigrant tenants.
Jessica: Yeah, he’s fighting landlords. He’s fighting abusive orphanage owners. He’s fighting abusive war prison wardens. He’s fighting domestic abusers, like anybody who is using their power again, champion of the the oppressed, anyone who’s using their power to harm those who are. Under that power, like he is stepping in to stop that no matter, you know, how big or small the scale of it. And in the like that shifts a bit in World War Two, and he becomes much more patriotic. And then in the 50s, it really shifts and he becomes this very staid, patriarchal figure who really is about maintaining law and order. And we can talk about like the comics code and there’s a lot going on in McCarthyism.
Like there’s a lot going on there. And that’s not really what our discussion is about. But with Superman, you can point to different moments in his history and you can say, well, he made this decision here and made that decision here. Because the politics that were guiding the people making the comics changed and the way he was being presented as a character changed that as far as I understand is not really the case with Captain America. And I’m not nearly as well versed in Captain America as I am in Superman.
Matthew: But you know, you have to ask a little bit more about Superman. Yeah. So where did the phrase truth justice in the American way come about? Was that in the 50s and the kind of the raw patriotism? Was that from the beginning?
Jessica: World War Two. It was not right from the beginning. It came in. It was part of the radio show introduction and not the original. I don’t remember the exact phrasing of it. There is specific phrasing that was more like like fighting for truth justice. And I think it might have been tolerant. So like it was different.
Okay. And then the U.S. entered the war and it became the American way because like it was very much a wartime patriotism thing. And then it went away actually for a bit after the war. And then it came back, which I do think it came back in the 50s during the McCarthy era, I think, but I would have to double check that.
Matthew: That’s right. Like he had that American way thing. His colors were red, white and blue and all. But we never saw him fighting the communists. Right. Like that. I don’t think of that as part of his history or were there.
Jessica: It’s one of those things where like comics during the Cold War, especially like the 50s and 60s. There’s a lot of like, there’s never anything specific about Russia or the USSR.
There’s never anything. They’re very vague. There’s a lot of fictional countries and there’s a lot of like whatever wackiness is going on in the comic. It turns out to be because of the machinations of a foreign spy with a really heavy Russian accent. But like it’s never like from the country of Moldova.
Right. Or like a made, they’ll come up with a made up country or whatever or they won’t name. Often they just don’t name a country. They’re like from a foreign power and it’s not subtle. But yeah, it’s not really explicit because it didn’t have to be explicit.
Everybody knew. And then as you move into the 70s and 80s, like the way that we interpreted the Cold War changed in the way that the comics interpreted the Cold War change very significantly. It became a much more complicated and nuanced conversation because of Vietnam and so on.
Matthew: Okay. So with that taken care of, now let’s have a talk about Captain America. Right.
Jessica: So Captain America, again, like I said, I’m less well versed in Captain America than I am in Superman. But it’s my understanding that he has been much more consistent as a character.
Like you have the original World War II flavor Captain America, who is, you know, he’s fighting Nazis pretty straightforward. But then from the moment he comes out of the ice, he’s very much, you know, he’s sort of a man out of time. And I mean, he is like that’s the catchphrase that they use for him. And a big part of that is him taking stock of where the country that he knows he is meant to represent is now and like trying to reconcile that against the values that he believes in. And that is an explicit part of his characterization in a way that it’s not for Superman because slogan aside, he’s not actually meant to represent America.
Right. He just happens to be American, whereas Captain America is wrapped in the flag and it’s in his name. And like there’s a storyline, I think from the 70s, where possibly the early 80s where he gets so like fed up with and dismayed by what’s going on that he quits being Captain America. And he becomes a superhero nomad and he has a really stupid costume and people mostly make fun of it. But like this is inherent in the character.
He’s right. He’s a character who if you don’t know anything about comics, like I remember maybe a year or two ago, I saw like a poll. It wasn’t a real, it wasn’t like a political survey or anything like actual professional polling. It was like a Facebook poll. But people were saying what they thought the political leanings of various superheroes were. And Captain America was down there as a Republican. And it was like, okay, nobody answering this knows anything about Captain America because if you don’t know anything about Captain America, you’re like, oh, he’s this old stodgy guy in a flag.
Sure, he’s a Republican. But I mean, you just have to watch the Civil War movie, let alone read the comics to see that. No, he questions things. He’s or winter soldier. Like he’s deeply troubled by the things that our government is doing. And he doesn’t just say, well, it’s probably okay because it’s the American government. Right.
Matthew: I think that’s part of what makes his story so important. And I recently rewatched Winter Soldier. And in that one, they, you know, they make it about shield and shield is run by this international group. So it kind of makes it less of a specific thing about America.
But it’s that same thing. And you see all the way back to the Avengers movie of, you know, him having this fight with Nick Fury, where he’s slowly losing faith. And I feel like in many ways that is such an important story for people right now.
Yeah. You know, because the journey of coming to understand like, no, this is not the country that we were all promised it was. And we were told. I think that’s a science conversation because I certainly don’t want to like, I think one view of this could be, oh, America totally lived up to all of those promises until 2016 or 2024.
You know, clearly that’s not the case. I think there are ways in which we’ve never lived up to those promises, but at times have been working towards them. And at times not. And but yeah, I just I think it’s such a powerful part of his story, Captain America of being willing to say like that that’s the depth, you know, that the American ideal isn’t necessarily the American government. And sometimes it can even be standing up to your own government to your own agency to whatever it is because the ideal is what matters.
Jessica: Absolutely. There’s also just, I just remembered again, another really important Captain America story was written in the aftermath of Watergate and the writer. Oh, really? Real upset because that was a, you know, a deeply scarring moment for the country back when, you know, a president committing crimes had consequences. Who knew what who knew?
Matthew: Strange idea.
Jessica: What what what a dream world they lived in. But there is a story in which like it’s a long story where Captain America is fighting an evil organization called the secret empire. And at the end of the story, he discovers that the secret leader of the secret empire is the president of the United States who is not known or named, but who then commits suicide just off panel rather than like this. Right. And like, you know, the writer was working through some stuff. Yeah, which, or there’s that line which it comes, I believe from the original Civil War comic and they took it from the movie where that that great. I don’t always love the context that it’s set in, but it’s a great line from Steve where he says, you know, when all the world is telling you to move, it’s your job to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth and say no, you move, which like I’m getting chills like it’s such a good line. And you plant yourself like a tree besides the river of truth like besides the thing that is right and true, not what you are told to do. Right.
Matthew: It’s funny because people on here know that I’ve had trouble with him saying that line in that movie, because I think that there’s both is an incredibly important statement. And yet the number of people who do that without realizing that they’re not actually planting themselves by the river of truth. And then it becomes very dangerous that reason but but no it is still I think a very important statement and idea and it echoes.
You know, I think the, I think it was gone to you said there’s some line about like, you know, speak the truth even if your voice is wavering and even if the whole whole world speaking against you, you know, I’m always just speaking the truth. I don’t. I’m totally mangling the line but same kind of idea. And you’re right. I think there’s something very powerful in that. So those are the two easiest ones I think in some ways. I have another one. Okay, go for it.
Jessica: I feel like the X men are really easy and I feel like. Yeah, pretty universally. They’re like, they disagree on a lot but I feel like they’d be pretty firmly in lockstep with this one.
Matthew: Yeah, I mean, I think that’s like, right now I will say right now here in Minneapolis, there’s a lot of conversation about how we should be reacting to this and there’s a lot of we need to be nonviolent and we need to you know hold to those ideals. And there’s a lot of people who are starting to bring guns and they’re not threatening anyone.
They’re being defensive. And I feel like, you know, there’ll probably be some like Professor X Magneto debate on you know, are what are we going to do these ice agents and stuff like that with Magneto wanting to be a little more on the aggressive side. But yeah, I think I think the X men as a whole be pretty against all this.
Jessica: Yeah, yeah, tactics they would differ on. Exactly. Uh, general opinion, I think they’d be pretty much, you know, there’s always like a handful of weasley mutants who are like, like Sebastian Shaw or like toad or whoever who are like, I don’t care, let me just get mine. But not talking about that. We’re talking about the actual X men. Yeah.
Matthew: And much as I dislike Cyclops, even I will admit that he gets tagged as the one order guy a little too much, even he I think would not.
Jessica: Oh, no, Cyclops would be in the streets with his laser eyes, like hardcore. We, we, I’ve been reading X men comics and we can have a whole episode about Cyclops because I actually discovered that I really like him.
Matthew: Okay, let’s do it. Let’s do it. Um, so let’s get, uh, let’s get away from easy ones. And I, I think we could come up with a lot of different people who would be against all of this and we will come up with more and talk about why. Who are people in the super powered world, especially maybe even heroes who you think could be on the side of what’s happening?
Jessica: I have a hard time. Coming up with a character. Who would be okay with what’s happening and stay okay, who is unequivocally a hero. I can think of characters who might at the start of the, you know, the imaginary story we’re telling be like, well, you know, like law and order, blah, blah, blah. And then as things, you know, deteriorate or like wait, this is going too far.
This is not okay. Like that’s a lot easier to think of. And for that, like my, my immediate instinct is to go to characters who are current or former law enforcement or military. So like my first thought was characters like Barry Allen, who’s a cough and fairly conservative politically. How Jordan kind of a space cop also fairly conservative politically. And again, it really depends on the story and whether like they’re the main character or like part of an ensemble.
Matthew: Yeah, the first one I actually thought of it. I really only know him from the Superman movie. What was bull cut green lantern?
Jessica: Right. Also a Republican. Listen, in the 80s, Guy Gardner was a huge Reagan fan boy. Like that’s Ken. I mean, that was, I mean, he’s, it was for comic relief. He was, that was, it was because he was being portrayed as an idiot and a jerk.
Like the comics were not pro Reagan and that was the point. But yeah, what I will say is that I, and like their versions of his story where his dad was a cop, his brother was a corrupt cop. Like there’s, there’s definitely a lot of that in his background. What I will say is that he would not stand for the masks or the shooting unarmed civilians. Like their green lanterns do not hold with cowardice. That is a huge part like that. By definition, a green lantern is supposed to be without fear.
Like it’s part of the ring doesn’t work if they have fear. And I just like, I feel like again, both Hal and Guy would work really well in a story where they’re like, well, you know, you got to follow the law. Wait, what? Yeah. I think they’d both fit really well into that story, especially with how like the green lantern green arrow thing green arrow would have very, very loud opinions. He’d be in Minneapolis right now.
Matthew: I agree. This doesn’t come across in the TV show, Arrow, the Oliver Queen. And I think we see this even in the Justice League cartoon, but especially in the in the comic books, my understanding is Oliver Queen is kind of the most like liberal hippie-dippy. And I say this is a liberal hippie-dippy myself personally in the in that world, right?
Jessica: 100%. And for those listening who are reading comics, I highly recommend picking up the current comic Batman Green Arrow, The Question Arcadia, which is not about this specifically, but is very much about like the questions. The question kind of whistleblowing about abuse of laborers who are being trafficked and green arrow being like, we have to stop this and Batman being like, I don’t know, it seems like they’re following the rules and like Batman does eventually go, oh, they are not following the rules. Okay, let’s go punch some people. But I thought it was it’s it’s excellent and it’s very good characterization for all three of them. Interesting.
Matthew: The question is another one I want to talk about in more depth at some point because I’ve met I know very little about him, but he seems fascinating to me. And yeah, I think, you know, because one of the first ones I thought of was some of the more kind of authoritarian of our heroes and Iron Man being the first obviously to come to mind. And I think they’re. I am an Iron Man defender.
We know this. I have some love for him, even though he’s a very wounded character clearly and has made some mistakes. My thought though, and again tell me, I’m just going my MCU is that the idea of executive power, the idea of democracy is good, but we need to be safe. Those are things that I want to say already, Jane, but no, that’s the actor that Tony Stark would be very okay with and has been okay with.
The suit of armor around the world. I feel like he would be one of the ones who would be kind of on the most against it for different reasons, where he’s like, this is so dumb, you’re doing this in such a dumb way. This is not helpful. This is not, you know, it’s that kind of thing where like authoritarian characters often aren’t going to support other authoritarians because they want to have the power themselves and especially if they want someone using the power badly, that’s going to drive them even more crazy.
Jessica: Yeah, well also just speaking of RDJ, now I’m picturing Dr. Doom being like, you are doing a terrible job. He would be so annoyed. But yeah, like I mean, again, Iron Man strikes me as a character who I could see in this imaginary story very easily being like, oh yeah, he made this proprietary Stark AI that helps identify undocumented people or whatever, like undocumented people who have actually committed crimes or who might, based on the AI’s guesses, potentially commit crimes, because you have a lot of comics that explore like, this isn’t the right word, but like, anticipatory or proactive justice where you go after people before they do something which innocent feel proven guilty.
So no, that doesn’t work. But like I could see, I could so easily see that story and then like Steve or somebody being like, oh my god, you have to stop and him being like, no, no, I’m keeping people safe until like that horrible moment where he’s like, oh no, I’ve made a terrible mistake, as I always do, because as you said, it’s kind of, that’s kind of how he rolls. But yeah, it’s really easily into that. Right. Like, yeah, this all sounds good to me until the tragedy hits. Right. Yeah, I think that’s the,
Matthew: there’s almost kind of an invité that I feel a lot of the times in the people who are supporting what’s happening right now, you know, in terms of like, no, because they’re all criminals, that’s what they’re doing it, you know, and that we trust the government, we trust Trump and that kind of thing. And yeah, I see that a lot in the, you know, Iron Man and others like that, being like, oh no, I’m sure I can, I can create Ultron, it’s going to be fine. It’s going to be fine. You know, we can keep control of it.
Jessica: Yeah, I know every time I make a robot, they’re evil, but this time, this time, I got it.
Matthew: Which I will say, this is a big tangent, but I love the movie Age of Ultron, but it is one of my frustrations because he does, but it works. You know, he creates Ultron and it’s bad and everyone’s like, don’t do it again. He’s like, I’m going to do it again. They say, don’t do it again. He does it again, but it’s vision. So it’s okay. Yeah.
Jessica: So and I think a big thing with Tony is that he, you know, in his, and again, I’m not, I’m much more well versed in DC characters than Marvel. So I haven’t read a ton of his comics, but at least in the movies, and I get the impression this is true in the comics too, he recognizes in his first movie that he has been wrong and that his company has been wrong and they have to change. But I don’t think he’s ever actually deprogrammed the weapons dealer inside his brain for the incredible, like the incredible levels of privilege. And I think he’s more conscious of the privilege than the weapons dealer. But like, that’s, that’s his solution to everything.
Like that’s where he goes to, and that is not the solution to every problem. And that’s why so often, like I literally just finished reading a con, like a massive storyline where the Eternals who nobody cares about the Eternals, but they were like, let’s kill all the mutants. And Tony was like, I don’t know, I have a great idea. Why don’t we make a God that will stop them from doing that. And then the God was like, I’m going to destroy the earth and Tony was like, hmm, perhaps this went wrong.
Matthew: Yeah. I want to go back a bit to also what you’re talking about with the masks because this is DC, but I know it’s kind of, you know, other world thing. But do you know much? How well versed are you in Watchmen, especially with a TV show that came out a couple years ago?
Jessica: I didn’t watch the show, but I’ve read the comic, the original, not any of the like sequels or anything.
Matthew: Well, because I was going to say, I don’t know how much this is a part of the original comic. I don’t remember it being much in the movie, but I guess it sort of was. But a major theme of the TV show that came out, especially the second season, which I think is just absolutely fantastic, is this idea of the danger of law enforcement wearing masks. And in that they kind of create this world where you start out being very sympathetic because the police are getting like people are going to their homes and attacking their families and it’s terrible. And you understand why they’re wearing masks and why they’re hiding. And that is the claim as to why ICE is doing it because they’re being doxxed and their families are being harassed and stuff like that. And like, you know, don’t harass people’s families, but I do love it, restaurants and hotels in my city are like, nope, I saw Minnesota, we get out of town.
That’s what we do. But, um, um, but through the course of the show, it really gets into like how like, you know, and I think I’m sure both you and I have massive problems with the idea of the modern police forces in our country, all based on slave catchers and stuff like that. But like that, if there’s going to be any kind of organization that has a part in working on public safety, there has to be a level of trust between them and the community that they’re working on and a sense of accountability and a sense of we are here to help and to protect.
And when it doesn’t happen, we’ll be held accountable and you will see us and we will see you and that can’t happen with masks. And I think that’s something that that show really drives home so well. I really recommend people watching it. I’ll probably watch it again pretty soon. But, um, but yeah, and that I think is just so relevant for where we are right now.
Jessica: Yeah, I mean, like traditionally the superhero mask is and like the emergence of the secret identity as a whole, you know, trope and whatever is because they’re vigilantes. Like, yeah, a lot of them wound up being officially deputized. Captain America is like an official, you know, function of the US military or whatever. But for the vast majority of them, like that arises out of vigilantism, which again, in these early comics was often in response to if not government oppression, then at least legal oppression. Whereas, so when when law enforcement adopts the practices of vigilantism, something has gone terribly, terribly wrong. Yeah. Yeah. I just forgot what to put it.
Matthew: Now, one of the super villains. I, you mentioned Dr. Doom and Magneto who, you know, more and more is becoming kind of an anti hero. What are other villains that you think we either stand for or stand against what’s happening?
Jessica: Interesting. I mean, I feel like, you know, your sort of billionaire villains would be like, cool, can I profit off of this? Your Lex Luthor’s, your Kingpin’s, like there are definitely stories. Those are both characters who have been depicted with nuance. So I could see a story where they’re like, no, no, and they speak out against it.
But I think the vast majority of that kind of story, like they would, they would just be cashing the check, like they don’t care. And certainly, there was a recent, like a few years ago, run of Daredevil where Fisk became mayor, which obviously we saw in the TV show and like, it’s perfectly happy to abuse his political power to harm people. Lex was president and same. So yeah, no, I, I, Yeah.
Matthew: And this moment in time, I can easily see Lex is one of the ones who’s like, okay, I don’t really care about the racism nonsense, but Greenland is all sorts of minerals. So I like this part of the plan and Oh yeah, absolutely.
Jessica: Absolutely. He’s one of the, you know, horrendous billionaire tech bros. Yeah, stuck in on the tit of government.
Matthew: It is funny how many times like Luther, like as our vision of what the evil rich is, Lex Luthor continually changes to be that each time.
Jessica: Yeah, which like we talked about Superman doing that too, like they both evolve to fit what we envision evil as.
Matthew: What are, or who I should say are super villains, you could see who would be standing against this.
Jessica: I mean, Magneto, but we, you know, he doesn’t exactly count. You know, there’s like, there’s a fair amount of antihero. So like poison ivy, Harley Quinn. I don’t know that they would be that motivated, but like if it happened where they were like, they’re not going to travel. Right. They’re not like getting in the car.
Matthew: Yeah, they’re both also on the kind of anarchist like, you know, we just don’t want, you know, big government.
Jessica: Yeah, yeah, like they care more about protecting what they love and the people in their orbit and like vulnerable people. So like ivy is really protective of children. So if you have ice agents, you know, harassing a daycare, those ice agents are going to find themselves dangling from vines very quickly. Trying to think of other like big names, super villains.
Matthew: I was reading somewhere that Joker apparently like hates Nazis with a passion. Is that a thing or is that just kind of like a joke that’s coming about?
Jessica: I feel like I vaguely know what you’re talking about. I could see there being like a random comic where he’s like, I mean, I’m evil, but I hate Nazis and it’s like the punchline, but it’s not like a consistent part of his characterization or anything. Okay, that makes sense.
I don’t, I just don’t see how it would come up all that often. I mean, you got two face 50% chance of him going either way. I feel I think somebody like Rosal ghoul would be interesting again could go in many different directions and certainly like I see a lot I can I have a hard time picturing a lot of villains who would step in in an altruistic way, but I can picture a number of villains who would be like, I’m going to intervene, but also I’m getting something out of this. I will say like the flash rogues I think would largely be like like if this happened in central city, they would be like absolutely not because yet letting this happen.
Matthew: No, Captain cold is not standing for this. Yeah.
Matthew: No, I definitely like that. And I think that there’s, you know, I’m thinking about it. Raju Ghoul is definitely one of them that there’s a number of villains where I think one of the things that they often want is chaos. And so like in part it I think part of why we’re wrestling with this a little bit is because the actions of our actual government or actual world feels so comical and feels so like comic book villain in that sort of like not a well-developed villain, but in just a silly over the top way. But it does feel like a lot of villains that that we talk about, you know, they will support governments doing things not because they want that thing to be done, but because they know it’s going to lead to instability. They know it’s going to lead chaos. They know it’s going to lead to civil war. And that’s what they want. And that definitely seems like a racial rule thing a lot of the times. And, and, and, you know, some others for sure. Yeah.
Jessica: I mean, going back to what you said about like, you know, the actions of so many of our government, so many in the administration and so many affiliated with the administration who don’t have real jobs in them, Elon Musk, like are so over the top comic book super villainy, like as a writer, this is something I genuinely struggle with where like, I’ll have people read like manuscripts and be like, why is this villain doing this? And I’m like, because he’s greedy and hateful. And they’re like, I just feel like he needs more nuance. And I’m like, Oh, okay, I’ll think about it.
Like, I’ll work on that. And then I read the news and I’m like, why do I have to make a three dimensional villain? When are these cackling Saturday morning cartoon villains, like, literally looting my country, like looting our taxes. And like, and Venezuela’s oil and
Matthew: it’s, and wanting to remind great telling Norway that we’re going to invade Greenland because Norway didn’t give him the Nobel Peace Prize.
Jessica: I mean, if you if like, even 10 years ago, even after the 2016 election, I mean, of course, you know, during that, the lead up to that election and after the election, there were many people who were like, Oh, you’re exaggerating, it’ll be fine, which is like, will it? But even then, if you described what was happening now, and I don’t necessarily mean like, I actually think I probably would have believed what’s happening in Minneapolis, but like the level of sheer, like idiotic incompetence, and like, just like the tariffs, the like, all the things that happen just because they literally don’t know the definitions of words, or like inviting reporters to a signal chat, like all of this is like, no, this, I don’t, you need to rewrite this. This I don’t believe this in this season of America.
Matthew: On a similar note, one of the other podcasts I’m involved with the Marvel movie minute, we’re getting ready to do our minute by minute breakdown of Captain America Winter Soldier. I recently did for the Dark World, and I did not invite you to be a part of that because I respect you. But this one, I think would be a fun one to talk about.
Yes. And I realized, so I, and I’m my recent plane trip, I watched that movie again to kind of get myself back up for it. And I remember that the first time I saw it, I liked it.
But part of my problem was it felt too obvious. It felt like, come on, this hype, like all of a sudden, thousands of people are going to be just murdered by these helicopters, helicopters, but it’s going to be okay because everyone’s like, no, no, no, they were terrorists. They had these bad ideas.
They’re going to be like bad people. And I was like, I don’t believe that. That’s a little bit simplistic writing. And now I look at the real world, I’m like, Oh, no, that’s exactly what’s happening.
Jessica: 2014 was a simpler, more innocent time.
Matthew: It really was. It really was.
Jessica: I don’t have anybody smart enough to make a helicarrier. Yeah.
Matthew: Yeah. So at least we’ve got that going for us. All right, well, we can probably go on and on. And there’s a lot of people we’re going to say, yeah, of course, they’d be against this because mostly people are smart in comic books. And yeah, but is there any last person you want to bring up who would, who might be surprised to people, but you think it would be definitely against this or for it?
Jessica: Well, I think you did say we’re going to talk about the Punisher. Sure, let’s do it. What are your thoughts? So and let me frame
Matthew: sure, and let me just frame this by saying part of where this controversy comes from is that, you know, Punisher is obviously a vigilante and he’s kind of a version of Batman, but without Batman’s rules about killing and who is in some ways has some altruistic motivations, but also is very much seeking revenge for the people who killed his family. And that both directly in season one of the show and in a lot of comics, but then also the kind of like, I want to get the kind of people who did this to me, you know, and that’s also in a, I want to make sure they don’t to other people, etc, etc. But because he is a, I’m going to torture people, I’m going to kill people, I’m going to have no remorse, no mercy by those elements of law enforcement who are mad that as they see it, the woke people are making them be nice to criminals and stuff like that and keep saying like, Oh, that was not an okay, that was too abusive or that was too violent or that was not a person you should have shot. A lot of those cops have adopted Punisher as their kind of person is like, no, look, they’re criminals, they’re bad guys. Why can’t we mow them down the way that Punisher does? And the author of Punisher to my understanding has been very, very clear that that is completely wrong that very Conway.
Jessica: Yeah.
Matthew: Yeah. So say more about that, about what he has said and where he’s where he feels Punisher stands.
Jessica: I mean, I don’t know the direct, the direct quote handy, but Jerry Conway has definitely come out and said that like, no, the Punisher would not be okay with killer cops. Like because what the Punisher, the Punisher is against criminals.
And when a cop breaks the law, they then become a criminal, like, right, by definition, it’s not criminals are not like a separate category. I mean, even though like a lot of Punisher comics kind of talk about them in that way, like he, if you do wrong, if you break the law, if you harm people, he’s coming for you. And like he’s not so hung up on like the letter of the law, you know, if you do like horrendous things that are totally legal, he’s coming for you. And yeah, the idea that like, it’s that he would approve of law enforcement having cart launch to kidnap and beat and kill whoever they want. No, like, I get he’s another character who I’m like, I don’t think he’d go out of his way. But I could see the story where he’s like passing through. And then he’s the Punisher. So he kills a lot of people who expect him to be on their side. And then he’s like, you know, his comics often have like war journal, like his like the narration boxes are like war journal day 4907.
I’m on the road again. And you just see him like on his motorcycle or in his van or whatever. Like it’s not, you know, he’s not like, like you said, his mission is one of revenge. So this is not, he’s not going to get involved in politics. But if it comes to the store step, or if he comes to its doorstep, he’s going to act as he sees fit.
Matthew: And my understanding is always been granted. I know much more about Batman than about him. But that he’s another one because it seems there’s a contradiction because clearly he is breaking the law right left and center in what he’s doing. But that there’s a there’s a sense of I’m going after the people who fall through the cracks that the legal system, like he would be very happy in a world where he didn’t have to, well, I guess no, because he’s driven by the personal revenge.
Jessica: So he needs, he needs enrichment. He wouldn’t be happy in a world with no one to kill. He’d be so bored. Yeah.
Matthew: So I mean, there’s okay if there’s just kind of a hypocrisy there of the like, I want the police to follow, you know, the law, but I’m not going to.
Jessica: I mean, ultimately, it’s a very silly and incoherent morality and like he’s a very silly character. Let’s be there’s there’s a bit in a, like a throwaway joke. I think it’s a footnote in an issue of squirrel girl where he cameos and it’s like, it’s the punisher, you can tell he’s really serious because he screen prints a skull on all of his t shirts. It’s like, it’s ultimately he’s very silly, which I mean, Batman is also similar to what we’re saying about Iron Man.
These are all characters who are very much like, I can do whatever I want and it’s right because I feel like it. Yeah. Like, that’s, that’s the place that they’re operating from. And Frank Castle doesn’t have the excuse of growing up rich, but I think we can explain why Bruce Wayne and Tony Stark are like that. They have butlers. Yeah.
Matthew: Yeah. That’s really the case. That’s that’s the best evil. Yeah.
Jessica: My other thought tangential to the punisher is I do think that daredevil would have very strong opinions, but I think that we need daredevil a lot less than we need Matt Murdock.
Matthew: Yes, I think it’s very true. I think the the the legal fight like to me, Matt Murdock would be the one who um, you know, daredevil might fight a couple of ice agents to be able to do this, but like daredevil is the one who’d be like, okay, I’m going to go gather all the evidence from the shooting of Renee Good that the that the fans aren’t allowing us to investigate and like, you know, show up at a judge with like look, here’s all the evidence that the cop did commit murder. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like it.
Jessica: It’s called that video we all saw. Yeah.
Matthew: Yeah. So hard to tell. Hard to tell. All right. Well, Jessica, as always, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much. I really hope that you I do like a well written villain, but I’ve been convinced that they don’t have to be in the real world. So whenever you get us some writing about your villains that better or worse motivations than those in the real world, I want to read them. Our listeners want to read you. But for now, as I said before, check out stone sword table with story by Jessica. Of course, check out all my other podcasts. This one, Star Wars Generations, Once in Future Parent, although that’s going to be going through some transition in a little bit and more of a
