*This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity. Filler words and false starts have been removed; all substantive content is preserved.*
Matthew:
Hello and welcome to this episode of the Star Wars Generations Podcast, friends. Today we have a mailbag. A number of you have been sending us comments and thoughts about Mando and Grogu and Maul: Shadow Lord, and we are really excited to be a part of it. Which is why I’m sorry to say I’m probably not going to be a part of this episode — my wonderful wife is feeling sick, so I’m going to go handle childcare. I’m going to leave my precious other baby, this wonderful podcast, in the loving, caring hands of two people who I know will do me no wrong, who will guide you through a wonderful discussion and be proper, upright podcast hosts: Alex and Erin. So to the two of you, I hand it off.
Alex:
I call dibs on messing up this podcast, actually.
Erin:
When Matthew talked about their precious baby, I thought it was going to be me — but they were talking about the podcast.
Alex:
Anyway, like Matthew said, we’re doing a mailbag this week, both on Maul and Mando. So we’re just going to jump right into it. We’re going to start with Maul. So this is from Jason Schaefer: “The idea that a lightsaber’s kyber crystal can be used to whisper influence and drain secrets is kind of a fascinating addition, considering The Acolyte in particular.” Jason then further explained: “Maul uses his lightsaber to both enhance Devon’s anger and learn her name — some type of empathic link was formed during their first fight.” What do you think about that, Erin?
Erin:
I think that’s very true, honestly. Even Doc called it out throughout the show — he’s like, “Girl, what the hell is going on?” But I didn’t necessarily consider that the lightsaber was enhancing her anger or connecting the two of them further. I knew it was probing, to an extent. It got her name, obviously. I don’t remember if we talked about this on an episode, but just for some bigger context: Maul’s lightsaber speaks during the episode where he and Devon first fight. It speaks in Sanskrit, using the lyrics from “Duel of the Fates,” and it basically probes through her and figures out her real name. So Maul has an upper hand on her.
Alex:
Yeah, and I think it’s interesting because we’ve known — ever since the Clone Wars episode on Ilum with Ahsoka and the little younglings — that kyber crystals can speak; they have their own sentient abilities. They choose the Jedi and guide the Jedi toward them. So it’s no surprise that these kyber crystals in both The Acolyte and Maul are actually communicating and creating this empathic link. I can’t say “empathic” today — I don’t know what the deal is. But it is interesting. I think it adds another layer to Star Wars that has just been touched on slightly in the Clone Wars, touched on slightly in the video games like Jedi: Fallen Order. I hope they keep exploring it. I think it’d be interesting to see it potentially in a Soka season. And I think the continuation of it in Maul in the next season will be really cool — like, as Devon eventually maybe bleeds her kyber crystal, or is battling, maybe she’ll hear voices of her old master. I don’t know. But it is interesting that the kyber crystal’s sentience is being looked at more by Filoni and the team.
Erin:
Yeah, I’m glad they’re exploring it. But a question for you, Alex — do you think she still has her Jedi lightsaber? Because I —
Alex:
I don’t actually remember if she lost it or not. I think she did, probably.
Erin:
I think so, because the final scene where we see her and Maul, they’re on the gunship escaping with the Crimson Dawn, and she’s looking at a lightsaber — it’s tilted, and it’s Maul’s lightsaber, not hers.
Alex:
Well, unless Maul directly gives her a lightsaber — the kyber crystals aren’t naturally red; they have to be bled. So she’ll have to bleed one anyway, wouldn’t she?
Erin:
That’s a good point. Yeah, I think you’re right. I guess I’ve never considered that, because you don’t really see it. We don’t see how a Sith finds their crystal. Do they ever find their own crystal, or do they have to kill someone? He used the light side to get a crystal.
Alex:
From what memory serves, in the Vader comics, Vader bleeds a crystal. I can’t remember if he found it or not. I feel like this could be completely wrong, but I feel like they took him somewhere to find his own crystal and then he bled it later. That would make sense — if they had to find their own crystals and then bleed them. But it also wouldn’t be far off if they killed someone to get a crystal and then turned it to their will.
Erin:
To their will. Yeah, that’s kind of your rite of passage — rather than a crystal choosing you, it’s you conquering a stolen crystal and making it bend to your will. That would be very Sith.
Alex:
A stolen crystal, making it bend to your will — that would indeed be very Sith.
Erin:
Yeah, proving that you can overcome someone who had a crystal.
Alex:
Yeah. Although you do need a lightsaber — unless you’re a Sith just sent into battle with no lightsaber to fight someone who does have one. Which would be kind of crazy. They have to have some kind of lightsaber to fight the people they’re taking the crystal from.
Erin:
The Sith aren’t known for their compassion, so I could also see a Sith lord just electrocuting the hell out of their Padawan for like several months and then being like, “Okay, good luck — if you die, you die. Sucks to be you.”
Alex:
I agree — that’s basically the Maul model. But thank you, Jason, for bringing that up. I like that a lot; it’s something I didn’t really pick up on and will have to go back and rewatch. Okay, next — for Maul, we only have two. A few more for Mando, though. This one is from Darth Grogu — the mental image of Darth Grogu is really funny, actually. “Thank you, in all caps, for talking about how cliché the end of Lawson’s plotline was. I’m not really sure why his story was such a big part of the show, but the ending especially felt so predictable and out of place for the rest of the show.”
Erin:
Yeah, it was kind of cliché. I can appreciate what they were trying to do — they were trying to give us some ground-level characters and introduce more boots-on-the-ground Star Wars. But it worked out in a way that felt very tropey. I wish they had done it differently, because I loved the actor’s portrayal. The actor who plays Wagner Mora — who plays Pablo Escobar in Narcos — is so good. I love the accent. I loved having a character with a clear Hispanic accent other than Andor. I just wish they had given a more compelling story to such a great actor, because the character unfortunately fell kind of flat.
Alex:
Yeah, and I think the idea started off strong. But unfortunately they tried to manage too many moving “main” characters. You had the Maul storyline obviously, you had Devon and Daki, and then you had Lawson — and Lawson, while he could have been really compelling… Honestly, I think Matthew would love this, but: what if they just did a standalone show? Like they did Andor on Amazon Prime — a Star Wars noir, like a beat-cop show?
Erin:
On Janix! Like, I feel like I would eat that up — and I feel like a lot of people would. But it is a Maul show that focuses on Force users, so his story just fell kind of flat and felt rushed. You couldn’t really get into the fact that his wife was in the Empire — that didn’t end up mattering that much in the end. And his big sacrifice at the end, he just kind of disappeared into the mist, and I was like…
Alex:
Bye, Lawson. Yeah.
Erin:
It was a bummer. The story of a man just trying to do his job and keep the greater politics out of it, and his wife leaves him to go work for the big bad — that could be a really compelling story. But I agree: when the titular character is Darth Maul, nobody’s really going to care about Captain Lawson. They could have done cool things with him, but there’s also the real struggle of: what storylines do you add? They couldn’t just have Maul and Devon alone the entire time. It’s a shame they took a character who could have been interesting and made him more of a throwaway.
Alex:
Yeah, I agree. It was a good idea and a good effort, and I didn’t hate it — it just fell flat. And it was extremely on the nose throughout. It could have been either a smaller part of the story or a bit less predictable. That’s my take.
Erin:
Yeah, and there’s always the chance — you love to argue this when we’ve talked about off-screen deaths — they’re technically never confirmed. He faded into the mist; they never get him on screen. He’s never captured by the Empire that we know of. We never know. Maybe he becomes an Inquisitor someday.
Alex:
And this is where it all goes off the rails. Okay, we’re back.
Erin:
I’ve had a really fun day today, so sorry if I’m a little goofy.
Alex:
It’s okay; I’ve had a weird few days. Alright, that’s the Maul talk — let’s get into Mando. We have a few comments here. We’ll start with Adorês — sorry if I’m pronouncing it incorrectly — Adorês. “A tiny, hyper-specific bit in Mando: ‘heel’ to Grogu made me oddly irritable. Same. The tone elsewhere is tiny-bit respected-apprentice or weary-but-patient-parent. The swing into wayward-puppy is odd. I like the concept of training your chaotic young warrior to jump to a marshal-ready command to keep them close, but not something you’d say to an animal. It gave me a fleeting yuck.” First of all, Adorês, thank you for the wording of “the concept of training your chaotic young warrior to jump to a marshal-ready command.” That’s incredible. But you’re right — we talked about this: every step we’ve taken shows Grogu getting more mature, more responsible, growing up. And it felt like in the movie a step was taken back just for the gag of how cute Grogu is — like he’s still kind of clueless. He was trained in the Jedi Temple. He’s not an idiot. Saying “heel” just feels wrong. Having a little code word with your apprentice makes sense, but “heel” specifically just upsets me.
Erin:
That’s fair, and where the commenter is coming from is very valid. I come from a place of valuing animals as family. Growing up from ages nine to twelve, my dog was the most important person in my life — I use the word “person” very intentionally. She was a mothering figure, which is a crazy thing to say about an animal you can’t verbally communicate with. And my current family dog is like my baby. I’ve talked about this with friends outside the show, and I do understand how “heel” comes off poorly. I agree they could have used something else. But “heel” is also a command in the animal world used to keep your animal safe in unfamiliar situations — it’s a way to communicate with a sentient being who doesn’t speak the same language as you. Mando doesn’t have the Force. He has no other way to communicate with this being who is, in his mind, his son — someone he needs to keep safe. So even when something comes off harsh, it’s coming from a place of trying to do better by someone you can’t verbally communicate with. I agree “heel” was a little jarring, but I understand the intent behind it.
Alex:
That’s really fair, and I appreciate you looking at it that way. I have a cat and a dog — my family has a dog back in New Jersey, and they’re family. But I think what bothers me specifically is the insinuation that Grogu isn’t intelligent enough to respond to a normal command — that “heel,” which we associate so specifically with dogs, has to be used. He’s a warrior in training, not a pet. And even if it isn’t intended to talk down to him, it feels that way on screen.
Erin:
That’s fair. And I totally see where you’re coming from, especially as we’re trying to build Grogu into more of a character as he gets older. Using such a known animalistic command does feel like a bit of a step back.
Alex:
Yeah. And I think that was a great point to bring up. We touched on it briefly before, so I’m glad we got to talk about it more.
Erin:
Me too. I clearly have a lot of feelings about this.
Alex:
Okay, next one. Chelicific Jarrow — I think there may have been some typos in the original, so I’ll do my best. “We’ve been trying to get my kids into Star Wars for so long, but so far we’ve kind of been stuck — haven’t been able to get them to really get into it. The Mandalorian and Grogu changed that. They loved it. All the people out there hating on it may just not be happy that they were not the audience it was seeking out. It was not made for the fanboys, which is fantastic in my opinion, because they are never happy anyway.”
Erin:
I was doing a lot of little finger-claps in the background while you read that. First of all, Callissa — I’m so glad your kids finally like Star Wars. There is so much good lore for them to get into. That’s huge. And I would agree with what you’re saying about the reception. I think a lot of people were really hoping the film would further Star Wars lore or advance the plot of this time period. But what a lot of diehard fans may be missing is that people who only watch the movies have never seen these characters before. Bringing in a big plot involving characters from the Ahsoka show or the Obi-Wan show — that’s going to be confusing for the mass audience this film is going out to. Although the movie may seem like fluff, I’ve seen it three times and I loved it. I think it was a really good way to introduce these endearing characters to a bigger audience.
Alex:
Yeah, I agree. It did feel more like a kids’ movie, and I think I actually heard people saying that as they left the theater when I saw it the first time. But we have to remember — the original Star Wars was made for kids.
Erin:
And if we’re going to hate on these movies, we’re no better than the people who hated the prequels when they came out. Those were made for kids too.
Alex:
Right. And a lot of the criticism was that it doesn’t advance the storyline — but it doesn’t have to. We were talking on the show about a year and a half ago about Skeleton Crew, which didn’t advance anything. It was its own standalone story, it was designed more for kids, it was like space Goonies basically — and we loved it. So I think it’s okay that this film wasn’t necessarily targeted at adults. The joy of Star Wars is getting younger fans into it and keeping it alive. Our parents were into it, we’re into it, and hopefully the next generation stays into it too.
Erin:
Yeah, and I think that’s something that’s so beautiful, but so difficult for some people about a long-running fandom — you always want it to further the plot. But hey, you’ve got to bring in the younger viewers. If you’re introducing Callissa’s kids to Star Wars and the newest thing you have to show them is The Acolyte, that’s not going to land. So although people may be frustrated, I think it’s a really good step for the longevity of the Star Wars fandom. Get younger fans interested. Something a little more happy-go-lucky, where there’s nothing too big going on but there’s fun action, fun down moments — and yes, a hillbilly.
Alex:
There is indeed a hillbilly, which is wild. But yeah, I would bring my child to see Mando and Grogu right away. Compare that to Episode III, which my mom wouldn’t let me see when I was nine.
Erin:
Absolutely. And I think a lot of the discourse about whether it was good or bad comes from the fact that we as diehard Star Wars fans have waited so long for a feature film that everyone wanted so much from it. But really, it’s similar to The Force Awakens — they’re trying to gain the trust of the audience back and bring in newer viewers. Whether or not that’s ideal for the storyline overall, that’s just the realistic way that a fictional fandom survives. If people aren’t interested, there’s never going to be more content.
Alex:
Agreed. Thank you, Callissa, for that. Okay, next one. Also from Darth Grogu: “I liked the movie, but I think we’re still facing the same question: what happens to Grogu over the time of the sequels? Does he eventually go back to study with Luke and then die at the hands of Kylo Ren? Is he a Cal Kestis — one more Jedi who was around, but nobody knew, so they called someone else the last? I’d like to see him in the Rey trilogy, or wherever else they do the post-sequels. Maybe there’s an Ahsoka or Ezra-style plot that removes him during the sequels but lets him come back for what comes after.”
Yeah, and I’ve had some more thoughts on this, because it feels like they’re trying overall to build toward — and we’ve talked about this briefly before — this Avengers: Endgame-style movie with Thrawn as the main villain, bringing together Ahsoka, Ezra, Mando, Grogu, Boba Fett…
Erin:
Well, Boba Fett, minus the fact that he’s dead at this point. There’s no way. Anyway — the point is we’re kind of working toward that. But also, Mando’s a little stale; what’s the next storyline? Either we keep hunting Imperials, or we get to the endgame movie. And after that, I highly doubt Disney executives have the backbone to kill Grogu on screen.
Erin:
There is absolutely no way.
Alex:
There’s no way. So it’s either off-screen — and even that would piss people off — or maybe he returns somehow, Mando gets him back. We’ve seen him being returned to the so-called Yoda planet, although Dagobah is just where Yoda settled. Yoda’s actual home planet has never been named or revealed. His species has also never been named, because George Lucas explicitly never wanted that. So I don’t know if we’ll actually ever know what happens there.
Erin:
Yeah, we might not. And I think all the questions about what’s going to happen to Grogu — is he going to go further down the Jedi path — are very valid. It ties into what I said about the previous question: a lot of this film was about getting people on board rather than advancing the plot. But at this point, Grogu is a Mandalorian who uses the Force. He is not receiving any formal Force training; there’s nothing furthering his path to becoming a Jedi. I could completely see a version where Grogu is alive and a Mandalorian, wearing the Beskar, and he just happens to have the Force — but that doesn’t necessarily make him a Jedi. It doesn’t mean Kylo Ren has to kill him, or that he has to go to Luke. He’s part of a group, and he just happens to have an extra cool ability.
Alex:
And he could just go off into the sunset with Mando.
Erin:
I saw a really cute fan theory. You know how Grogu has a much longer lifespan than Mando, and the Hutt Twins exploited that during this movie — “when you’re gone, we’ll go after your kid”? Well, guess who also has a much longer lifespan than a regular human? Rotta the Hutt.
Alex:
You think Rotta’s going to adopt Grogu?
Erin:
Maybe not adopt, but I wonder if they could almost be like brothers. At this point in the film, we’re assuming Rotta is somewhere between eighteen and twenty-four in equivalent human developmental terms. And seeing him play with Grogu — a lot of people said that was cheesy or dumb, but I think it was a really cute way to show that all Rotta has ever wanted is a family. Although it’s hard to make a giant, ab-ripped slug a compelling character, I think he kind of is. There’s something very sweet and endearing about him. And going on a bit of a headcanon, I like to think that’s partly because of how Ahsoka treated him — gave him a little nickname, gave him medicine. I hope Rotta wasn’t just introduced to never be mentioned again. I hope he returns, because they could do a lot of interesting things with that character, especially matching him and Grogu up with their life spans.
Welcome back, Matthew. We were just discussing a fan theory that after Mando dies, Rotta and Grogu will be together as almost brothers because of their similar life spans.
Matthew:
I thought that was pretty sweet. Have you gotten to the email asking about the future of Grogu?
Erin:
That’s exactly what we’re on right now. Perfect timing.
Matthew:
Okay. I enjoy the individual stories that Star Wars has been adding. Let me rephrase that. I enjoy Cal Kestis’s story, I enjoy Ahsoka’s story. But I feel like when people say “the last Jedi,” it should mean something. Do I think every Force-sensitive person in the galaxy was with Luke and Kylo Ren? No, of course not. But Luke knew Grogu was out there. He knew Grogu had rejected him in favor of Mando. I feel like Kylo would have found out. I don’t like the idea that Kylo kills Grogu because Grogu is way too cute and we obviously don’t want that. But I feel like there needs to be some explanation for why this quite powerful Force user — who Luke would presumably have mentioned to Leia — just isn’t around in the sequels. I don’t want to do some space fish or World Between Worlds thing. But at some point there needs to be some explanation. If he’s dead, that would suck, but at least we’d have an answer. I think it would be really cool if he shows up in whatever post-sequels trilogy we end up getting about rebuilding the Jedi Order. The puppet doesn’t age — you just make a new puppet for the new size — so it’d be fun to see. They’re writing themselves into a bit of a pickle, and I just want them to address it in some way.
Erin:
Yeah. What we’ve agreed on is: there’s no way they kill Grogu on screen. After making him the people’s princess, that would be actually insane. I kind of lean toward the idea that Grogu has already rejected the Jedi way. He has chosen to be a Mandalorian. What’s to say he’s not still out there, just as a Mandalorian who isn’t a Jedi? Yes, the first forty years of his life he was in the temple, but he was a baby. We don’t know anything about how his species develops. I could very much see it as: he’s just a Mandalorian with a cool special power, the way any alien adopted into the Mandalorians might have some extraordinary ability. And after Mando is gone, Rotta and Grogu just continue their thing. One of them learns to fly. I kind of like that idea.
Matthew:
But someone as powerful as he is would probably want to do something when the First Order comes along. Although — is he actually that powerful? His abilities have been getting stronger, like his healing. But we’ve been told that Force powers can diminish if someone doesn’t train with the Jedi or the Sith.
Erin:
Yeah, that’s fair. And we don’t know what the Mandalorians are doing during the sequels, so maybe it gets addressed there. I would just like it to be talked about somewhere, in some form.
Matthew:
Exactly. I would love it, even if it’s just in a book. I would love to see her character — Grogu’s path — explored more. We were disappointed that he didn’t get to do more.
Alex:
Well said. Go ahead, Erin.
Erin:
Oh, I just want to take a second to say: Matthew, you’re right, there are only three seasons of The Mandalorian. I thought it was four. They just spread it out over so much time.
Alex:
To be fair, Erin, there’s that weird half-season embedded in The Book of Boba Fett.
Matthew:
It’s one episode and a half, but yeah.
Erin:
I wouldn’t call it a half-season, but yes — three seasons.
Matthew:
It does not matter. It’s utterly irrelevant. Move on.
Alex:
Point is, I am sad we’re not going to get more of her on screen. While I don’t necessarily think Sigourney Weaver will appear again in live action, it would not surprise me if in future animation projects they might bring that character back to fill her out a little — which we’ve seen Star Wars do before. Even if Sigourney Weaver just came in for some voice acting, that would be kind of cool. But the main chance we have of seeing Colonel Ward again is probably in an additional season of The Mandalorian.
Matthew:
We’ll see. Well, thank you guys so much for covering while I was away. I’ll look forward to hearing what you had to say when I’m editing.
Alex:
All good. This is honestly the most on-the-straight-and-narrow episode Erin and I have ever recorded together.
Matthew:
I doubt that. You two together pretty good. That is a low bar, but I appreciate that you cleared it — and maybe cleared it by quite a lot. So we will see. Anyway, thank you all so much for listening. I want to give a particular shout-out to a podcast that I’ve been on a couple of times and that has covered some Star Wars as well as some of my other favorite things recently: Make Me a Nerd with Mandy Kaplan. It’s a fantastic podcast where Mandy — someone who hasn’t really been a geek but is now getting introduced to that world — covers all kinds of things. She recently did an episode on Interview with a Vampire, which is phenomenal. They’ve done X-Files, Serenity — all the things that a lot of us grew up with that she’s now discovering. She has a fantastic attitude toward all of it. She’s going to be back on the Superhero Ethics show sometime soon, so definitely check her out. You can find everything Alex and Erin are doing in the show notes, as well as my other podcasts, all at TheEthicalPanda.com. Thank you all so much for listening. We have spoken. Stay classy.
Erin:
It’s not an exact quote, but it’s still in theaters. So forgive me. “I’m going to be my own man. I’m nothing like my father.”
Matthew:
Do you think he’s got a Serenity for women? He should be.
