Mandy Kaplan:
Hello everybody and welcome to Make Me a Nerd. I’m Mandy Kaplan, a mainstream mom whose mission it is to explore the world of nerd culture that I’ve been missing out on and afraid of my whole life. If you’re new to the show, here’s how it works. Somebody, a nerd, a passionate lover of something, usually sci-fi, fantasy, video games, all that stuff, has me watch or do or try or read something, and we see if I can get on board with their nerdery for it. No one is more qualified than my special returning guest, Justin Jaeger. He is a podcaster and a super nerd, as far as I know.

Justin Jaeger:
Yes.

Mandy Kaplan:
And you—

Justin Jaeger:
I wear it proudly.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah, and you have a YouTube channel, Jayge’s Pages, where you review books, correct?

Justin Jaeger:
Yep, and a lot of nerdy books on there too, but actually there’s some mainstream ones too. That’s kind of the fun of it. It’s all different kinds of books, all genres. It’s called Jayge’s Pages on YouTube.

Mandy Kaplan:
But can you spell it, because it’s not a word.

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah, it’s weird, right?

Mandy Kaplan:
It’s not a word.

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah, it’s not. It’s made up. My friends just called me that for a long time because of the two J’s in my name. It’s J-A-Y-G-E, apostrophe S. Jayge’s Pages, and it rhymes, so that made it fun.

Mandy Kaplan:
Now, did I say Justin Jager?

Justin Jaeger:
You did.

Mandy Kaplan:
Which is what everyone told me your name was.

Justin Jaeger:
And it’s not.

Mandy Kaplan:
It’s Jaeger, like a real person, like a real boy.

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah. Like the popular German beverage. Yeah, exactly.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yes, but when I met you ten billion years ago, all of your rapscallion friends said, “No, it’s Jager.”

Justin Jaeger:
Yes. Yep.

Mandy Kaplan:
It’s spelled with a J. It’s pronounced Jaeger.

Justin Jaeger:
They’re totally wrong.

Mandy Kaplan:
And I believed it until, like, a year ago. I believed that.

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah. They were either lying or completely wrong, and I’m comfortable saying either.

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay. Well, Justin Jaeger, like a real person.

Justin Jaeger:
Thank you.

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay. So we got to do a podcast about Disclosure Day.

Justin Jaeger:
We did.

Mandy Kaplan:
The Film Board, which is also on the TruStory FM channel, the family of podcasts, and that’s such a joy for me to hop in when I can. We do it with a rotating cast of podcasters, and they come on and discuss usually a mainstream release, like whatever the big blockbuster movie is that month.

Justin Jaeger:
Yes.

Mandy Kaplan:
We get on and we break it down. And what did you think of Steven Spielberg’s Disclosure Day?

Justin Jaeger:
So this might end up being a little bit of a recap of The Film Board, but I ended up loving it.

Mandy Kaplan:
Everybody go listen to it.

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah, you should.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.

Justin Jaeger:
I ended up really loving it. My expectations were not high, and maybe that’s part of the reason why it ended up surpassing them so greatly. I hadn’t had a Steven Spielberg movie that I’ve loved in a long time, and this one really blew me away. But a big part of it was because of the emotional connection that you get in this movie about aliens. And that’s a lot of my jam. And that might be what led to us talking today.

Mandy Kaplan:
That’s exactly right, because first of all, I am the kind of person who cries at commercials. I’m a big sap. But I think you have me beat.

Justin Jaeger:
Mm, yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
Because I’ve seen you tear up so many times talking about superhero movies or philosophy. You’re just a very emotionally in-touch person, and I love that about you. And you really responded to Disclosure Day, which I did not respond to. So if my listeners—

Justin Jaeger:
Oh, we have the same thing, at least from the emotional standpoint. We did connect on some of the most emotional scenes, even if we didn’t have the same sort of overall view about the film.

Mandy Kaplan:
Right. Well, I took on all of The Film Board.

Justin Jaeger:
Mm-hmm.

Mandy Kaplan:
And if you all want to hear me do that, I did not care for Disclosure Day at all. And I was the cheese standing alone, in opposition to all of you. But I will say, I scored so many points when I said, “Didn’t you think it was repetitive?” And almost everyone went, “Well, yeah.” And I said, “Didn’t you think this?”

Justin Jaeger:
Yes.

Mandy Kaplan:
“Well, yeah.”

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
So I went toe-to-toe, and I didn’t make a nice of myself.

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah. If it were a competition, which it’s not, if it were a competition, you would have scored many points. You are correct.

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay. Well, let’s see if I can score some today, because on The Film Board, which everyone’s gonna go listen to, you mentioned this movie, Arrival.

Justin Jaeger:
Yes.

Mandy Kaplan:
A movie I had never been aware of or heard of, even though I’m a passionate Amy Adams fan.

Justin Jaeger:
You hadn’t been aware of it? Is that accurate?

Mandy Kaplan:
I got it confused with The Martian.

Justin Jaeger:
Oh, now that’s fair.

Mandy Kaplan:
I thought they were the same movie.

Justin Jaeger:
I understand why you might think that, especially in your mainstream persona. But I’m so glad that we’re here now talking about it, because they are, I don’t want to say they’re very different. I think the comparisons to Project Hail Mary are probably a lot more connective in the experience of Arrival. But this is, for me, a very powerful film that talks about so much more than the sci-fi stuff that probably kept you away, or at least got you confused with Matt Damon.

Mandy Kaplan:
I think you just summed it up perfectly.

Justin Jaeger:
Wonderful.

Mandy Kaplan:
I see something touted as “aliens come to Earth,” and I’ve already turned the channel. It’s just not my jam. I tried Project Hail Mary. I read the first hundred pages or so, and it gave me terrible anxiety.

Justin Jaeger:
Well, as a book person, I would not recommend Weir for you, the author of Project Hail Mary, just because what he’s known for in the sci-fi, or even just the fiction world, is this sort of heavily researched, heavily science aspect of those things. So I don’t think Weir is the right fit for you to come to the genre. But I really loved Project Hail Mary, just for different reasons. Even though the path here is similar in Arrival, I loved it for very different reasons than I love Arrival.

Mandy Kaplan:
Well, I will say, the science didn’t bother me in the first hundred pages or so, and I read it for my ladies’ book club.

Justin Jaeger:
Oh. Okay. Okay.

Mandy Kaplan:
They all slept for the book. They all ran to the movie opening weekend without me. Loved it, loved it, loved it, loved it. I’ve probably said this to you before, and I apologize to my listeners. I can’t do things where someone’s facing death. It’s just too anxiety-causing.

Justin Jaeger:
Oh, in general?

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.

Justin Jaeger:
Oh, sure.

Mandy Kaplan:
So, “Hey, I woke up, I’m in outer space, I’m by myself, I’m gonna die out here”—

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah. Terrifying.

Mandy Kaplan:
I was like, “Oh, I’m out.”

Justin Jaeger:
Yes.

Mandy Kaplan:
I really tried, but I just couldn’t do it.

Justin Jaeger:
Right.

Mandy Kaplan:
So it’s not too science-y.

Justin Jaeger:
So, little aside, did you see Spaceman with Adam Sandler?

Mandy Kaplan:
No, I’ve never heard of that.

Justin Jaeger:
Okay. It’s a Netflix movie. But I will tell you, the concept of Spaceman takes that aspect of Project Hail Mary that you’re talking about and, at least in the trailer, crystallizes it. And I will say, the idea of being alone in a satellite floating in space actually put me directly in my therapist’s office. So I understand the anxiety. I was like, “Wait a second, I’m not comfortable with this experience of reality.” So yeah, your anxiety is warranted.

Mandy Kaplan:
And Spaceman, it’s not, it sounds like a Spaceballs parody of—

Justin Jaeger:
It’s not. It’s not. It’s on the Uncut Gems, you know, the anxiety spectrum.

Mandy Kaplan:
Like the Punch-Drunk Love Sandler.

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah, for Adam Sandler. But I’ll just say, it’s out there too, if the genre is interesting to your listeners.

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay. To them, yes. To me, no.

Justin Jaeger:
Not to you, right.

Mandy Kaplan:
Could you do an elevator pitch of Arrival for those who haven’t seen it and don’t know what it is?

Justin Jaeger:
So that is a great way to start, and probably not the way to sell the movie. Part of the reason I’m on all these podcasts about entertainment and movies and books is that I freaking love spoilers. I think spoilers are fantastic. And I think, Mandy, you love some of this too. I love to go into art and look at the execution and look at the way people do things. That’s part of my appreciation for it. So spoilers never bug me. Spoilers never put me in a place where I’m like, “Oh, I can’t like the movie anymore,” because I get it.

But Arrival is one of the few movies in the world where, if I tell you too much, you will miss some of the beauty of the unlocking of this film. And this is part of my elevator pitch for it, because I watched it with my sixteen-year-old, for example, and it was maybe my fifth time watching it. And the interesting thing, when you get into the story and the commentary and the experience of this film and what it’s trying to say about life, and about how we experience life, if you know too much about this movie, you won’t be able to appreciate that message. And that’s the kind of thing that I want to bring to this podcast with you.

Mandy Kaplan:
I agree wholeheartedly. Even as you were talking, I got a lump in my throat.

Justin Jaeger:
Yay.

Mandy Kaplan:
So, are we saying don’t listen? Are we doing an all-no-spoiler? I find that hard to do. So what I will say is: if you have not seen Arrival, I will do the elevator pitch.

Justin Jaeger:
Love it.

Mandy Kaplan:
Aliens have landed all over the planet Earth. In America, they land in Montana. Amy Adams is a linguist and a professor. She is contacted to try to interpret the language of the aliens. And so she goes to interpret the language of the aliens.

Justin Jaeger:
Perfect.

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay. The military’s involved, but—

Justin Jaeger:
But one thing, if that’s your pitch, this is why Mandy doesn’t see the movie.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.

Justin Jaeger:
That’s the problem. Because the depth of this movie, the thing that I’m gonna make you a nerd about, and you’ve seen the movie now, so we can get into it, the reality is, that pitch, that synopsis that sold—

Mandy Kaplan:
Is not what the movie’s about.

Justin Jaeger:
—in the trailer is not what the movie’s about. And Mandy doesn’t see that movie because, I’m gonna stop talking about you like you’re not here, Mandy doesn’t see that movie because that’s not enough.

Mandy Kaplan:
Right.

Justin Jaeger:
Right? And there’s so much more here to see.

Mandy Kaplan:
I agree wholeheartedly. But if you have not seen this movie and you’re like, “What are they talking about?” pause this podcast, go watch the movie, and come back.

Justin Jaeger:
And come back.

Mandy Kaplan:
And now we can talk about it freely, right?

Justin Jaeger:
Wonderful. Yes. Lump in your throat.

Mandy Kaplan:
Um—

Justin Jaeger:
I think we should start there. I’m telling you, that’s the thing. Lump in your throat. That’s what you said a moment ago.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, I was like, “Gross, why would I open my throat?”

Justin Jaeger:
No, what I was gonna say is, to talk about the appreciation in this movie, you should go directly to the lump in your throat, to talk about the emotion that it’s gonna bring to you.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yes. Well, can we try and go in order, because that’s how I experienced it, as a total newbie.

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
I didn’t know what was coming. So I was just watching it, thinking, “Oh cool, they make beautiful Rorschach patterns as their language.” I was just on the ride.

Justin Jaeger:
Mm, yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
And at the beginning of the movie, this movie starts where Disclosure Day ends. They have landed, and now everybody knows, right?

Justin Jaeger:
Right.

Mandy Kaplan:
Everyone knows there’s aliens.

Justin Jaeger:
Yep.

Mandy Kaplan:
And it was so realistic, the fact that she couldn’t turn the news off, the constant barrage of where they had landed all over the world, and “What are we gonna do? Is this war?” I liked how real and gritty and ominous all of that felt.

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah, it definitely does. And this is the director of Dune, so you get a lot of this deep—

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, is he? He’s the director of Big Little Liars. Or what’s that called?

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah, I think so.

Mandy Kaplan:
Big Little Eyes.

Justin Jaeger:
Now I’m saying this, and now we’re gonna have Denny—

Mandy Kaplan:
Denis Villeneuve.

Justin Jaeger:
I was gonna pronounce it incorrectly, so I’m so glad you did.

Mandy Kaplan:
Tommy Metz looked it up for me and texted me the correct pronunciation in preparation for the show.

Justin Jaeger:
Thank you, Tommy.

Mandy Kaplan:
Thank you, Tommy. Tommy’s the reason you and I know each other. So—

Justin Jaeger:
A hundred percent.

Mandy Kaplan:
He is the reason we are all here, in so many ways.

Justin Jaeger:
Exactly.

Mandy Kaplan:
Did he direct Dune?

Justin Jaeger:
I believe so.

Mandy Kaplan:
Wait, I thought you were IMDbing that?

Justin Jaeger:
Now I’m gonna check. Yeah, I gave up because I thought you said you had—

Mandy Kaplan:
No, I know he did Big Little Eyes.

Justin Jaeger:
Right.

Mandy Kaplan:
So that’s my knowledge of him. Mainstream chicklet.

Justin Jaeger:
I’m going, I’m going. Yes, yes.

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay, great. Okay. So the whole beginning sequence, Amy Adams is lonely. The movie is very, very dark physically, like it’s a gritty, gray, dark palette. It’s not a colorful film at all. And I will say, please don’t get mad at me, but for a movie about language, the sound mix was really off for the first twenty minutes. I had to put subtitles on to understand what anybody was saying.

Justin Jaeger:
Sure. Yes, it’s down in the mix, unfortunately. And for a film that is trying to tell you a lot without saying it in the direct dialogue, it needed to be higher. I agree with that.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, I thought I was nuts. I’m always scared someone’s gonna say, “It’s your TV, Mandy.” But I’m like, this is a movie about language.

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay. So that’s all we really know about her, and she is grieving the loss of her beautiful daughter, that we see in flashbacks from birth to her death at maybe age fourteen or something around there.

Justin Jaeger:
Mm-hmm. Something like that. Looks like it, yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
So we know this woman is just broken. She seems broken. She’s teaching in front of a lecture hall, but she doesn’t seem to be into it. I wanted to know more about her. I wanted to know her personality, or her flaws, or her wants.

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
I think I now know why we don’t get to see that in the first half hour.

Justin Jaeger:
Of course.

Mandy Kaplan:
But I was really—

Justin Jaeger:
Yes.

Mandy Kaplan:
A helicopter comes to get her. Forest Whitaker shows up at her door, and he’s like, “The military needs you, get on the helicopter in ten minutes.” It’s intense, and she’s scared and thrown, but she does it. I wanted to be rooting for her and understand her better.

Justin Jaeger:
Right. So in the subtext of the conversation that leads up to everything you just mentioned, and there is a lot, and it’s not just one conversation, I’m saying the conversation of the film, there is a lot that explains about Louise as a character, in terms of language, but also in terms of comprehension and her subjective interpretation of the way things go, and why she becomes the protagonist and the main character in this film.

And the key thing for us to learn about the way she comprehends things and the way she interprets things is explained to us secondhand in the way that she has conversations with Forest Whitaker. When she has to compete for the role, she says, “Ask Danvers what the Sanskrit word for war is.” Right? Do you remember this line? And he comes back and he says it was an argument or a disagreement. And she says, “Yeah, no, it’s this word, and it means something about sheep.” And the point was why she is important. This is part of my favorite aspect of the storytelling in this film: the thing that you wanted is to learn about her character, and they teach you in the way that things happen. And this whole idea of someone interpreting “argument” or “disagreement” to be war, versus something that is benign to be war, is essential to the character of Louise, and why she is—

Mandy Kaplan:
Right.

Justin Jaeger:
—the Tommy of this movie. She is the reason why everything comes together, and why it has to be her, because she’s the only one that can interpret language in the way that’s necessary to make the movie happen.

Mandy Kaplan:
I mean, it’s not unlike her character in Enchanted, who only sees the positive. Giselle.

Justin Jaeger:
Right? Yes. That’s her name. Giselle. I was close. I was close.

Mandy Kaplan:
I was so inspired by that movie and by her character.

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
It changed me forever.

Justin Jaeger:
I love that.

Mandy Kaplan:
I really danced out of the movie theater. I went to go see it by myself as an adult, in an early morning show or something.

Justin Jaeger:
Wonderful.

Mandy Kaplan:
And I thought, sometimes I get short-tempered with the person at Starbucks when my order’s wrong or taking too long. Sometimes I glare at the car that I’m passing because I want them to know they were going too slow for me. Now, I still do a lot of that stuff, I’m human, but Giselle had none of that. It was a miracle someone was making her a coffee. It was a miracle she was in a car driving somewhere. So I really was inspired by that. And I think Amy Adams has this quality about her as an actress, and maybe as a person, I don’t know, I wish I knew her. But you look in those eyes and you believe she believed. She gives everyone the benefit of the doubt, and she’s just open.

Justin Jaeger:
Well, as a native Minnesotan, and Amy Adams being the pride of the Chanhassen Dinner Theatre in Minnesota, I have a lot of admiration for her, and really believe that a lot of it has to do with Minnesota Nice. Whether or not that’s true, I have no idea. But yes, I follow that full inspiration that you have from Enchanted.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh my gosh. We’re gonna get along just fine.

Justin Jaeger:
We know that.

Mandy Kaplan:
But I want to dive right back into the movie, but first we’re gonna take a break. So she arrives at where they’ve set up a base, a military base around the very cool-looking flat, I’m sign-languaging.

Justin Jaeger:
They call it the shell.

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay, the shell.

Justin Jaeger:
They call it the shell. Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
It’s very cool-looking, and it looks almost flat, but then when they go in it, it’s obviously, you know, there’s room for a whole little world in there.

Justin Jaeger:
Yes.

Mandy Kaplan:
So they suit up. She meets Jeremy Renner, who’s playing—

Justin Jaeger:
Ian. Yes.

Mandy Kaplan:
Ian. Fantastic. He is a scientist. So she’s the linguist, he’s the scientist, and they’ve been paired up to talk to the aliens.

Justin Jaeger:
Figure it out.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.

Justin Jaeger:
Tell us what’s going on here.

Mandy Kaplan:
So they’re going down this long tunnel, after they’re in hazmat suits. And I was so confused. I thought, are they upside down? Are they weightless? Are we supposed to understand, or are we supposed to be like through the looking glass where nothing made sense?

Justin Jaeger:
What did you settle on? Because I think through the looking glass is the right way to go with that.

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay. Well, I hate Through the Looking Glass, despite the fact that I love JFK in that movie, but it was—

Justin Jaeger:
I’m sure.

Mandy Kaplan:
I couldn’t, I like answers. This is where you and I differ.

Justin Jaeger:
Right.

Mandy Kaplan:
I don’t like to ask the questions. I like to get the answers.

Justin Jaeger:
Oh, okay.

Mandy Kaplan:
And so we don’t know if they’re weightless, or if it’s—

Justin Jaeger:
They are momentarily, but then the gravity shifts and they are actually switched in gravity, to basically acclimate them to a world where they can actually have a dialogue with the aliens that have come to Earth.

Mandy Kaplan:
Right. Oh, and they can walk. I mean, they’re walking on solid ground.

Justin Jaeger:
Eventually. It’s this weird thing. They have to take the leap, right? And that’s the weird thing. The first time that Louise does it, for Whitaker’s character, Colonel Weber, we should call him by his character, actually has to—

Mandy Kaplan:
Um—

Justin Jaeger:
—take her with him, and they jump together.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.

Justin Jaeger:
But they have to take this weightless leap to then shift into this space that has been created as a dialogue point with the aliens. And it’s really great in film. From a movie perspective, what they do with the camera to disorient you, exactly the thing that you were frustrated with. It’s really an amazing way that we can look down, but it actually shifts perspective. It’s a great storytelling device to understand how different this world is really going to be for us. And then that is actually explained in the language as well, which is the central plot point for the film.

Mandy Kaplan:
I’m gonna nod and I’m gonna touch my face like a professor and I’m gonna agree with you, because it makes it seem like I understand what you’re talking about, right?

Justin Jaeger:
Very nice, yes it does, yeah, yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. Great. So they arrive at the creatures, who look very similar to octopi.

Justin Jaeger:
Yes. Right. Yes.

Mandy Kaplan:
And they are behind, yeah, massive, like, upside-down hands.

Justin Jaeger:
Or massive hands.

Mandy Kaplan:
And they’re behind this massive, massive, massive glass wall. It’s like an aquarium display, but bigger than anything we’ve seen.

Justin Jaeger:
Yes, yep. Right.

Mandy Kaplan:
Do you know anything about the filmmaking and what they were actually seeing?

Justin Jaeger:
I don’t. That’s actually a really good question.

Mandy Kaplan:
I was curious.

Justin Jaeger:
But I’ve not done the research down that far. Especially when you think about some of the shots, which are pretty amazing, where they will place Amy Adams, Louise, in the foreground, and she is sort of backlit by this amazing white screen that has something important to the film on that screen. You wonder if she could actually see that. I actually don’t know the answer to that question.

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay. I thought, well, if it’s just a big old green screen, damn, they’re good actors. And I know they are good actors, but yeah.

Justin Jaeger:
Well, damn, they’re good actors, yeah, exactly.

Mandy Kaplan:
Uh, she saw, right, right.

Justin Jaeger:
It might be just spotlights in their face, considering how they’re lit. But yeah, keep going.

Mandy Kaplan:
She saw creatures. And then there was a hard cut to them taking their suits off, getting the suits taken off, and her asking, am I fired?

Justin Jaeger:
Right.

Mandy Kaplan:
What happened?

Justin Jaeger:
Well, what does Forest Whitaker say after that?

Mandy Kaplan:
I don’t know.

Justin Jaeger:
“You did better than the last guy.”

Mandy Kaplan:
That’s why I’m asking.

Justin Jaeger:
He says you did better than the last guy, which means, and if you remember, when they first come to the camp, when she is walking to the military camp, there’s someone who’s brought out on a stretcher, and it looks like they’re dead.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, I didn’t—

Justin Jaeger:
And she actually asks the question as they come up. She’s like, who was on the stretcher there? And Forest Whitaker says something to the point of, not everyone can handle, can process, what’s going on here.

Mandy Kaplan:
So he potentially had a heart attack on the spot, or—

Justin Jaeger:
Or a stroke, or lost his mind, or any number of things. But this is the point of the storytelling that I really love in this film, where they aren’t gonna tell you. You are a witness to all the things that are happening, and you need to figure it out on your own, which, I think, based on what you’re saying, you hate.

Mandy Kaplan:
No.

Justin Jaeger:
Okay, good.

Mandy Kaplan:
No, I don’t know. I think I’m better qualified in, like, in a murder mystery, I’m pretty good at being like, oh, I just clocked that. I clocked what that character said or the way they looked over.

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
I got it. This genre, I was just desperate to stay with it. Do you know what I mean?

Justin Jaeger:
Well, and I will say—

Mandy Kaplan:
I wasn’t picking up on nuance, or any breadcrumbs. I was missing them entirely.

Justin Jaeger:
Right. And we haven’t found out if you actually like this movie or not yet. But I will say to everyone that’s listening, once you actually do learn the plot twist, it is a really wonderful movie to go back and watch again and go, oh, that’s what they’re teaching me here. This was like the fifth or sixth time that I’ve seen this movie, and I learned new things even watching this time.

Mandy Kaplan:
Which is wonderful.

Justin Jaeger:
Right?

Mandy Kaplan:
And it really is similar to the Bruce Willis “was dead all along.”

Justin Jaeger:
Right. Right. Which was spoiled for me back in the day, by the way.

Mandy Kaplan:
I mean, who did it?

Justin Jaeger:
Yes. Literally, like a blockbuster ad on the radio. They would do these little thirty-second vignettes of films, and they’re like, oh, we’ll do The Sixth Sense. And the last line of the little commercial was, “I have a secret,” or something like this. Like, “I know who you are,” or something like this. And it was just enough for me to know, oh, this is not great for me to see.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.

Justin Jaeger:
So anyway, yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
Well, yes, everyone who’s listening now knows the movie. They’ve seen it. So we are not in fear of—

Justin Jaeger:
Right. Yes. Great. Spoilerville.

Mandy Kaplan:
—spoilers like that.

Justin Jaeger:
Right.

Mandy Kaplan:
But yes, of course, if I were to watch it again, I would see, I would pick up, but just watching it through—

Justin Jaeger:
Yes. Right. Right.

Mandy Kaplan:
I didn’t know anything. I didn’t know why the fuck there was a bird in a cage every time they went to see the aliens.

Justin Jaeger:
Okay, so my sixteen-year-old asked the same question, and here’s the interesting thing. They don’t tell you, right?

Mandy Kaplan:
They don’t tell us.

Justin Jaeger:
But you do know the story, I would assume, of the canary in the coal mine, right?

Mandy Kaplan:
I’ve heard that phrase.

Justin Jaeger:
The reason why we have canaries in coal mines is because in situations where we are not sure about oxygen levels dropping, the canaries will actually make a noise when people are in danger of losing their oxygen. So you bring a canary someplace to tell you that something. Figuratively, that’s the actual science-term reason for it, but figuratively it’s like, if something really bad is gonna happen, the canary will start making a ton of noise. So they bring the bird to let everyone know, we need to get out of here.

Mandy Kaplan:
They didn’t explain that.

Justin Jaeger:
Right.

Mandy Kaplan:
Interesting. It’s almost crazy cat lady. Like my cats know about an earthquake just before we do.

Justin Jaeger:
Right.

Mandy Kaplan:
And you see your cats, yeah.

Justin Jaeger:
Exactly. All animals to some degree know.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
I only care about cats, but not the musical. But yeah, okay. So that makes total sense. Part of me really respects that they didn’t explain the canary, and part of me is like, it would have been easy enough to have her say, why is there a canary there?

Justin Jaeger:
Oh yeah. Right. And I will say, I just quickly did a Google search.

Mandy Kaplan:
You know.

Justin Jaeger:
It’s not about oxygen levels, which is what I hypothesized coming here. It’s about toxic information, and it’s not kind to the canaries. They have such a high metabolic rate that they die quicker than humans.

Mandy Kaplan:
Die.

Justin Jaeger:
So if you see the canary die, then you need to leave.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.

Justin Jaeger:
Mine was much more pleasant.

Mandy Kaplan:
Right, yours was the Giselled-up version of it.

Justin Jaeger:
Exactly. Exactly.

Mandy Kaplan:
They emit a lovely bird song, which means you have ten full minutes to take action and save yourself.

Justin Jaeger:
Right, exactly.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, that’s funny. The soldier. I wanted more character work. I was fascinated because in my mind, it makes sense that she would basically sacrifice herself, because she could walk up, she could go with them to the base, get on the ship, and be immediately killed. We don’t know.

Justin Jaeger:
You could, yeah, exactly.

Mandy Kaplan:
And she was willing to do that, because in my mind, she was a grieving mother who had nothing to live for anymore.

Justin Jaeger:
Right, yes.

Mandy Kaplan:
So there’s this soldier on the phone, who I think was the husband in Ready or Not, I think I looked that up.

Justin Jaeger:
That makes sense.

Mandy Kaplan:
And he is talking to his wife and she’s mad that he’s off on this mission.

Justin Jaeger:
Sacrificing himself to some degree.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yes.

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
And I was curious, JJ, this movie makes you think about that kind of thing, that kind of sacrifice. And there’s signing up for the military, which we all know is a tremendous risk and act of bravery, but then there’s, you get a mysterious call in the middle of the night and it’s like, hey, we need you.

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
Do you go?

Justin Jaeger:
That’s a great question. And what it makes me think about is the movie Erin Brockovich, in a weird way. So I’m a Steven Soderbergh fanatic. I love his movies. And one thing about Erin Brockovich that I think is really interesting is, as you watch the film, there is a shadowy character throughout most of the movie that’s kind of following Erin Brockovich around, following Julia Roberts, all these things. And it isn’t until he shows up at the bar where she is, where she is willing to have this conversation with this person who is, for all intents and purposes, a stalker to her, and you have this ominous feeling about this person, but he turns out to turn the whole case.

Mandy Kaplan:
Uh-huh, uh-huh.

Justin Jaeger:
Because he has a very important piece of information. And our impression about this person, which is heightened, yes, heightened by the film, right?

Mandy Kaplan:
It’s like the Willy Wonka guy. Right? The guy’s stalking, and then he’s like, no, I, yeah.

Justin Jaeger:
Yes, exactly. We think he’s terrible. We think all this is terrible. But I think the point of this movie and the point of Erin Brockovich is that nothing is objectively good or terrible. It is what we make it. And so you ask me, do I go? In a weird way, what this movie is telling me and what I truly believe in the world is, I trust myself. If it feels right, you do it. And if it doesn’t feel right, don’t do it. Trust yourself. Don’t get in the situation that’s bad. But if it’s the right thing, you bet you do it. And it was right for Louise. And in a weird way, that thing that the soldier did was right too. But that’s the thing, we all just need to trust ourselves that we’re on the right path and that we’re coming the right way through.

Mandy Kaplan:
I just can’t imagine a situation where the government is like, we need cheap choreography fast, Mandy.

Justin Jaeger:
I was already laughing at your joke before you said it, but yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
You know? Like my skill set is so limited. So I can’t imagine, or like, spinach artichoke dip immediately, that will save the planet.

Justin Jaeger:
What if that’s it?

Mandy Kaplan:
If that’s it, I would do it.

Justin Jaeger:
That’s the next M—

Mandy Kaplan:
JJ, I would do it, right?

Justin Jaeger:
—Night Shyamalan movie right there. Spinach artichoke dip that saves the planet.

Mandy Kaplan:
Of course I would.

Justin Jaeger:
Exactly.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, I haven’t done any M. Night Shyamalan for the podcast.

Justin Jaeger:
There you go.

Mandy Kaplan:
And there are movies I haven’t seen.

Justin Jaeger:
Well, there you go. Let’s do it.

Mandy Kaplan:
All right.

Justin Jaeger:
That’s a way to go.

Mandy Kaplan:
I’m gonna make a note of that.

Justin Jaeger:
Yes.

Mandy Kaplan:
Claire, honey, will you make a note that we’re gonna do some M. Night Shyamalan? Did you buy that? I have an assistant named Claire.

Justin Jaeger:
I did. I thought it was a robot. I thought you named your Siri “Claire,” maybe got the name wrong.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh no.

Justin Jaeger:
Yes. I like her.

Mandy Kaplan:
Well, we have to take a break, but when we come back, we’re gonna talk about Sheena Easton in this movie.

Justin Jaeger:
The name’s Claire. That’s wonderful.

Mandy Kaplan:
And we’re back. Of course, my favorite line in the movie is when they’re trying to explain the VO. Jeremy Renner has an amazing VO halfway through the film that actually catches me up, makes me feel more included, like, here’s where we’re at, everybody. And I wonder if that was, after test audiences felt lost, maybe they threw this in there. Because I loved it.

Justin Jaeger:
It’s possible.

Mandy Kaplan:
And he talks about, they’ve landed on eleven places.

Justin Jaeger:
Twelve, yes.

Mandy Kaplan:
Twelve places all over the planet, and he names the cities on a map, and he says no one’s really sure of the connection between them. Maybe it’s because—

Justin Jaeger:
Other than—

Mandy Kaplan:
Sheena Easton had a number-one single in all of these cities, in all of these countries, in the eighties or something.

Justin Jaeger:
In one date in 1984 or something like this.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah, it was great.

Mandy Kaplan:
I love that joke.

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Mandy Kaplan:
And—

Justin Jaeger:
Which song do you think it was?

Mandy Kaplan:
Well, in my Prince episode that I did with Kyle Olson and Pete Wright—

Justin Jaeger:
So jealous. So jealous, yes.

Mandy Kaplan:
I talked about Strut Pow, which Prince wrote for Sheena Easton, and I did a very inappropriate dance.

Justin Jaeger:
Love that. Yes.

Mandy Kaplan:
So everybody go listen to my Prince-tacular with Kyle and Pete if you want to hear about my shameless, slutty fourth-grade performance.

Justin Jaeger:
I love it.

Mandy Kaplan:
So I’m gonna guess it was Strut Pow.

Justin Jaeger:
Look at that, that’s wonderful.

Mandy Kaplan:
Which I don’t think is called that. I think it’s just called Strut.

Justin Jaeger:
Strut. It’s just called Strut. Yeah, yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
Strut Pow is a terrible name. Sounds like a street drug, right? Where do you get your Strut Pow?

Justin Jaeger:
I don’t know, but I’ll do anything for it.

Mandy Kaplan:
Since I brought up Pete Wright, and then we’re gonna ask what you would do for your Strut Pow, but I brought up Pete Wright, so I want to tell everybody that Make Me a Nerd is a production of TruStory FM. Engineering by the peerless Pete Wright.

Justin Jaeger:
Yes.

Mandy Kaplan:
My theme song is “Wonderstruck” by Jane and the Boy. You can get me on social media at MiscastMandy on TikTok and at Mandy underscore Kaplan underscore Klavens on Instagram, both with K’s. And please, please, if you’re listening on Apple Podcasts, leave a five-star review, write something, I’ll give you a shout-out on the podcast. It helps more people find the show. And if you’re feeling extra supportive, be one of us and join the club at makemeanerd.com/join. That will get you your episodes ad-free and early. Thank you for listening, everybody.

They did a montage with the VO to show us some progression of how things are going, trying to communicate with the aliens. And we should mention, with heptapods.

Justin Jaeger:
Yes.

Mandy Kaplan:
We should mention how gorgeous the visuals are when they communicate.

Justin Jaeger:
Stunning.

Mandy Kaplan:
It is stunning. I liken it to, my dad used to pour a big iced coffee and pour the cream in, and watching the cream swirl down an iced coffee.

Justin Jaeger:
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
They shoot like squid ink.

Justin Jaeger:
Right.

Mandy Kaplan:
And it swirls through the water, and let me assume it’s water. And it hits the glass that Amy Adams is at, and it makes these beautiful circular patterns. And each pattern is a tiny bit different.

Justin Jaeger:
Yes.

Mandy Kaplan:
And then, why am I talking so long? Because it’s fucking cool. The military’s taking pictures and videos and then trying to extrapolate, like, well, these two patterns are similar, maybe that means this, or they were trying to communicate this.

Justin Jaeger:
Right. Right. And this is where, in the section before here on the podcast when you said you were nodding and saying yes in a very knowledgeable way, this is what I was talking about, about how it’s bringing things up in the language, in that these heptapods speak in a way, or communicate in a way, that doesn’t have a beginning or an ending. They just express a whole thing that becomes some sort of pictogram. And if you’ve ever studied any of the pictogram languages, you can kind of understand that sometimes there are subtle differences between different pictograms. Well, these creatures communicate in a way that the entire statement becomes a picture for you to interpret. And that’s why that sort of subjective interpretation of what someone is trying to say becomes so important to understanding what is actually happening in this movie for these characters.

Mandy Kaplan:
I didn’t pick up on any of that. But I did when you just explained it, and sometimes I need, you know, I like to watch things with Jair, because oftentimes I can say, wait, huh? And he’ll phrase things in a way that I can grasp. You did that beautifully, thank you. But it reminds me somewhat of American Sign Language.

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
In that there are clusters of words that you can express with just one sign, rather than breaking down each word. And I’m obsessed with American Sign Language. And so I do think I would be a great Louise Brooks. Is that, no, that’s an actress. What’s her name? Louise?

Justin Jaeger:
Oh, Banks.

Mandy Kaplan:
Banks.

Justin Jaeger:
Louise Banks. Yes. And I will tell you, so I am obsessed with American Sign Language as well. I know nothing about it. I’ve studied many different languages in the world, but if you want an immediate thing to make me weep, send me a YouTube video of someone translating a popular song, but in particular like an emotional song, into ASL, and I will literally start bawling, because I think it’s the most beautiful thing in the world.

Mandy Kaplan:
I’ve done that when I teach kids. I teach kids and I translate it, because that’s what got me hooked as a kid, was Linda on Sesame Street.

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Ugh, I love it.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh my, we have so much in common.

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah. It’s gorgeous. Yes, we do.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yes, we do. So I mentioned this VO montage and then I got sidetracked, and I apologize.

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah, of course.

Mandy Kaplan:
See, I’m like the heptapods. I’m just speaking in circular, no time, no beginning, middle, end.

Justin Jaeger:
Right. Exactly. That’s right.

Mandy Kaplan:
There’s a shot of Ian walking and she’s holding the board that says “walks,” and the heptapod seems to take a couple of steps. Chills from head to toe.

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah, right.

Mandy Kaplan:
That they connected, that they got through and were able to show the walking. And she’s, on my TV, I watched it with commercials on, I forget what, Pluto. And the thing that they show before and after every commercial is her holding the sign that says “human.” And they just take their time with her touching herself and saying human, human.

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
I connected it, unfortunately, to xenophobia and this shitty world we’re living in with our government. And if we just opened our hearts and minds to people and welcomed them and tried to communicate with them rather than start wars.

Justin Jaeger:
Right.

Mandy Kaplan:
It’s, you know, I loved that approach that she had. It was completely peaceful and completely open.

Justin Jaeger:
Yes.

Mandy Kaplan:
To positive outcomes. But of course, they could have said, surprise, we’re here to murder you all. We don’t know.

Justin Jaeger:
Right. Yes, yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
But she didn’t approach it that way. It’s so inspiring.

Justin Jaeger:
And that’s a wonderful subtext of this film, to say, you know, if we just assume positivity, we’re going to find so much more joy and beauty in the world than if we’re consistently assuming that someone exists to hurt us.

Mandy Kaplan:
Right. God, it really, it’s, yeah, it is that same Enchanted mentality. And I wonder if Amy Adams is really drawn to projects like these. I don’t know.

Justin Jaeger:
I love it.

Mandy Kaplan:
Only I would equate Arrival to Enchanted, but I really do.

Justin Jaeger:
Well, I bet Amy has, so it’s you and her together.

Mandy Kaplan:
I’m sure. This does feel similar to Disclosure Day and Close Encounters. More so Close Encounters, which I also did an episode of, with Steve Sarmento.

Justin Jaeger:
Mm-hmm.

Mandy Kaplan:
It’s almost those in reverse, because we see the creatures so quickly, right? Those movies are building up to, what do these creatures look like? What do they want?

Justin Jaeger:
Right.

Mandy Kaplan:
And here we are, minute 25 or something, and it’s like, here they are. They’re beautiful octopi-looking things and they communicate with squid ink splotches.

Justin Jaeger:
Yes.

Mandy Kaplan:
Which do you prefer in terms of your storytelling?

Justin Jaeger:
Gosh, that’s a good question. I’ve never thought about it. I think, considering the question for the first time right now, I actually prefer this, because revealing the vision of what they are feels less important to me than the message. And I believe that the message is the same in all these films. But when you hold it back until the end, it feels like you’re trying to wait to slam something else home. And I think the thing that I love about this film is that the message is constantly upfront for what we’re talking about. We’re constantly talking about our perception defining our reality. We’re constantly talking about our experience of what we’re going through as it defines how we experience it. And that is really special to me. So I prefer, get the IRL things out of the way, and let the humans have that experience. Like the scene that you mentioned, right? Her first scene, the first time she sees them, we slam-cut into “did I get fired?” We don’t know why she failed, but we don’t have to, because that’s not the message. We need to get to the point where we’re actually communicating and understanding and figuring out really the message of openness here.

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay, hypothetical.

Justin Jaeger:
I love it.

Mandy Kaplan:
Your kid steals your car. All right? You find out because the cops bring your kid back and they’re like, we found them on a joyride, stole your car underage. And the kid says, “Dad, it doesn’t matter how we got here. That’s not the message.”

Justin Jaeger:
Hmm.

Mandy Kaplan:
Do you buy that?

Justin Jaeger:
No. No. Honestly, it’s great. And we haven’t gotten to the big twist here yet, and we’re going to, but the reality of this movie and what it’s telling us, and what we can understand about the greater thing, is, yes, all those things don’t matter, but we are human. We experience life the way that we do. And jumping into why the aliens are here and what they’re here to do, and planting the seeds with humans because they need humans’ help in 3,000 years, right?

Mandy Kaplan:
Mm-hmm.

Justin Jaeger:
It’s because humans still experience things the way that humans experience it. So they know they need to do it this way. And that’s what I tell my kid. Like, you may be right, but your choice needs some sort of consequence here.

Mandy Kaplan:
Right. Okay. I was just wondering, because you seem so at peace with not having the dots connected, and I’m not at peace with it.

Justin Jaeger:
Oh yeah. That’s fair, that’s fair.

Mandy Kaplan:
So I would be waterboarding my kid to get, like, who told you to do it?

Justin Jaeger:
Oh, well—

Mandy Kaplan:
Where did you go? You know?

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah, yeah, no, that’s good.

Mandy Kaplan:
Did you change any of my preset radio stations? The important stuff. I loved that they let Louise be terrified, fallible, wrong. She is not a badass superhero. I have a real bugaboo with protagonists who are perfect and always ahead of the bad guys, always ahead of everything. I just have no time for it. I’m so sick of that storytelling. And this movie is not that.

Justin Jaeger:
Right? This is a very human movie. This is very much humans doing human things. And I love that too. And honestly, if you just consider the work that they set Amy Adams up to do, she was a perfect cast, because this is her element. These close-ups where you’re going, okay, Amy, feel this. She is top of the list for being able to do that. And I just loved everything they did with Louise, and I love everything that Amy did with Louise too.

Mandy Kaplan:
Agreed. Did you see it on a big screen the first time you saw it? Because I think that would have been preferable.

Justin Jaeger:
Oh, right? I mean, when you watch this movie, this is the Denis Villeneuve thing, is that those movies are meant to be seen wide. To be honest, I don’t remember. I can’t remember the first time I’ve seen this movie. But I hearkened to that beauty and everything. And I actually remarked in watching this, I’m like, oh, we have a pretty good TV now.

Mandy Kaplan:
Well, that’s a good feeling.

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah, exactly.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah, I really would like to see it. What’s that thing in Vegas where they’re doing the Wizard of Oz, the Sphere?

Justin Jaeger:
The Sphere? Yes.

Mandy Kaplan:
Wouldn’t that be cool?

Justin Jaeger:
Do you know that the—

Mandy Kaplan:
Because you would have the creatures and the squid ink coming at ya.

Justin Jaeger:
Do you know there’s a whole conspiracy theory that the spheres are actually part of things that aliens taught us how to do, and that’s why they exist?

Mandy Kaplan:
No.

Justin Jaeger:
It’s out there. I mean, I don’t encourage people to go down conspiracy theory rabbit holes, but I think that stuff is super fun. Like, how do these things show up? And where did this come from? And it’s amazing. If you’ve seen the Sphere, it is mind-blowing. And I can imagine this film there would be life-changing.

Mandy Kaplan:
I have not been there. Yeah, but that’s what I picture. But I’m doing a movie called Sphere, a Michael Crichton movie, for the podcast.

Justin Jaeger:
Oh, you are? Oh yes, I’m familiar.

Mandy Kaplan:
Is that okay, is that about this?

Justin Jaeger:
That’s very good. No, no, not at all.

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay.

Justin Jaeger:
No, Sphere is early, but it’s early for my life, Michael Crichton. But it’s a really fun movie to do. You’re gonna enjoy it.

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay, great. Well, after I watched it, I looked up reviews of the movie, because I didn’t know what people thought of it at the time or whatever. And I found a site called GradeSaver, and the review called it a masterpiece of modern sci-fi. Denis Villeneuve’s film is more than a first-contact story. It’s a meditation on communication, grief, and the courage to face the unknown. Thematic parallels to today’s divided world, xenophobia, miscommunication, fear of the other, ring chillingly relevant.

Justin Jaeger:
Got it. And it ignored one major aspect there, too, that I think is key to understanding this film.

Mandy Kaplan:
I—

Justin Jaeger:
That puts it in a genre of sci-fi that is something that needs to be talked about with that. And that is the concept of time.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yes. Which, I did understand the twist, but of course I did not quite understand the whole, when she says they don’t have time like we have time. And, you know, do you want to nerd-ucate me about it for a minute?

Justin Jaeger:
Well, the most amazing point to me in it is this concept that Ian, Jeremy Renner’s character, says to Louise, which is the idea that there is a theory, and he names the theory, I don’t remember the name of it, that once you start acclimating enough to any language, that you start to actually dream in that language. And so then you get the metaphor of that, and what you just mentioned about Louise’s statement about the way that the heptapods experience time, that like, if I fully understand the language and I start to dream in that language, do I not experience time the same way? Do I begin to experience time as the speaker of the language that I’m learning? And that is a very interesting science fiction concept to come into play here, because then you, as an audience member, have to recalculate your entire experience of the film for the protagonist that you are walking through the film with, to say, am I experiencing time as myself, as a human, or am I experiencing it in this new science fiction, timey-wimey way that Louise gets closer and closer to as she acclimates and understands the language of these alien creatures?

Mandy Kaplan:
And you just made, sort of, but I know, you made a Doctor Who reference.

Justin Jaeger:
Does that help? Oh, I did? The timey-wimey? I didn’t actually know that it was from Doctor Who, but I will go with it.

Mandy Kaplan:
I know this because of the podcast, because I’m such a nerd.

Justin Jaeger:
There you go.

Mandy Kaplan:
Well, I think this brings us to the big twist. And—

Justin Jaeger:
Yes.

Mandy Kaplan:
This movie is essentially the question of, is it better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all?

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
So we learn through beautiful storytelling that I didn’t quite understand, I got the twist, but, that she in fact has not had a daughter yet. She is going to have a daughter that is going to die. They have been showing her her future in what we thought were flashbacks, but they’re flash-forwards. And do you take the leap anyway? And she does take the leap, with Jeremy Renner. And one thing I said, when she and Jeremy Renner have a lovely scene between the two of them at night, and they’re just like, how are you holding up? And I thought, oh God, don’t make this a romance between them. They have such, you know, they’re equals, they’re colleagues, they have such respect for each other. Why does it have to be a romance? And I rolled my eyes and I made a note that I hope it’s just not a romance. But then at the end I was glad it was, because of how much love and respect they had for each other, and that they had trauma-bonded through this thing.

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah. Right. I would argue that the way the story is told, that it’s not, it, they have a romantic connection, but it’s not told in a romantic way.

Mandy Kaplan:
Uh-huh. Right.

Justin Jaeger:
It’s told, it’s Louise’s story. This is all Louise’s story. And she gets the choice. She is the one that’s pivotal here. She is the reason why we’re having this window into this understanding. And Ian is part of her story for sure, but they don’t corrupt the story with non-important romance details.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah, we don’t know anything about him.

Justin Jaeger:
They bring you there, exactly.

Mandy Kaplan:
Right? We don’t know where he lives, what he’s doing, who, like, we just, he only exists to serve her story, really, in the moviemaking.

Justin Jaeger:
Yes. Exactly. Which is fantastic, and which is why I’m fine with them adding it to the movie, because it unlocks such a beautiful thing about the ultimate statement that the film is making.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah. I was confused, I think. So one of the screens, is that what they’re called? Shells, lands in China, and it’s gonna be war, basically.

Justin Jaeger:
Shell, yes.

Mandy Kaplan:
China is like, we’re not having this, and she curtails the war by reaching the Chinese leader and communicating on behalf of the aliens something like his wife’s dying, her last words on her deathbed—

Justin Jaeger:
To him, yes.

Mandy Kaplan:
—to him.

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
And so he therefore knows, oh wait, I shouldn’t kill these things. We should open and stay open. And she basically prevents world war from breaking out with that one phone call, which was really exciting and well filmed. And I liked all of that.

Justin Jaeger:
What a climax.

Mandy Kaplan:
And I love—

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah, it’s great.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, and Jeremy Renner saying, okay, go ahead and shoot me, and protecting her, and oh, it was great.

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
But I didn’t connect those dots. I needed a little more hand-holding. Like, how the aliens had communicated that to her, or how she knew that.

Justin Jaeger:
Right.

Mandy Kaplan:
I guess she doesn’t really know, right?

Justin Jaeger:
So, here’s the thing. This is going to go into what I just mentioned was the ultimate statement from the film. The aliens don’t communicate it to her. The message that happens as you understand the aliens’ language, and literally Louise is the only person who goes that far, right? There are many messages in the film that teach us that Louise is the only person on Earth that has taken the time to go this deep on the language, that has connected these dots. So what she understands, and this is where that metaphor comes in that I was talking about before, the science fiction metaphor, that as she understands the language she now experiences time the way that the aliens do. So the aliens themselves have nothing to do with telling her this thing from General Shang. She literally experiences 18 months in the future. And General Shang literally tells her the words to tell him 18 months in the past. Because time, the message about this film is that time is not real. Time is actually a construct of the human imagination. That is the way that we describe how we experience the world. And as Louise understands the way that the aliens experience the world, she now experiences it like them. And so she is able to confirm to General Shang what he should not do, out of the words of his own mouth. It is so well done.

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay. Yeah.

Justin Jaeger:
It is so exciting that it’s true.

Mandy Kaplan:
Do you remember, upon first viewing, was all of this clear? Or do you think it took a couple times?

Justin Jaeger:
So that’s a really good point, because I mentioned that this might be my fifth or sixth time watching the movie, and I do learn or find new things each time. I don’t think it was crystallized to me the first time, but it was like, like you talked about in watching murder mysteries, it was like a hunch. It was like, oh, oh, oh, like I clocked something, right? And honestly, for all the stuff that I do in my personal life and the ways that I’m learning about the world and my open-mindedness to the ways of experiencing the world, I think over time and over multiple viewings, I’m like, oh, this is my truth in watching this movie. And I think ultimately that’s the message that I hope everyone takes away from it too.

Mandy Kaplan:
You summed it up so beautifully.

Justin Jaeger:
Thank you.

Mandy Kaplan:
This is a next-level beautiful film. This is not an aliens-coming-to-Earth-and-humans-panicking typical film at all.

Justin Jaeger:
Right.

Mandy Kaplan:
I honestly preferred this to Disclosure Day and Close Encounters.

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah. I do too.

Mandy Kaplan:
I really—

Justin Jaeger:
I do too. I’m a hundred percent there with you.

Mandy Kaplan:
Don’t tell Steve Sarmento. But I really, really was very moved by this movie. I will admit I didn’t understand some parts of it, and I’m so glad to have someone to really dive in, because this is what makes me appreciate it even more.

Justin Jaeger:
Did you cry a lot? So I know what’s happening now, right? I know what we’re leading into. So I end up crying, and this happens to me with a lot of movies, when I know what’s happening, I end up crying much earlier, being like, oh yeah, this—

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh yeah. Mm-hmm.

Justin Jaeger:
This breaks my heart even before the heartbreak. So what were the big things that really got you in this viewing of it for you?

Mandy Kaplan:
Well, when we learned the twist, I was incredibly moved.

Justin Jaeger:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
I cried at the end when he says, “Let’s have a baby,” and she pauses and thinks and says, “Yes.”

Justin Jaeger:
Love it.

Mandy Kaplan:
But I think one of the very human moments, before I knew the twist, was her daughter asks her a question. The daughter is now eleven, ten.

Justin Jaeger:
Sure.

Mandy Kaplan:
“Mom, what’s this called?”

Justin Jaeger:
Yep.

Mandy Kaplan:
And she’s like, it’s a science question, ask your father. And she dismisses her daughter. And the daughter’s like, okay, fine, screw you, Mom, and goes upstairs. And then they cut away and they go back to present day and then they come back. But what I was so moved by is, we’ve all rolled our eyes at our kids or someone we love, or dismissed someone because I’m busy, just get out, leave me alone. And this movie makes you not want to do that. It makes you want to appreciate every moment and never take anybody, or any moment, or any amount of love for granted.

Justin Jaeger:
Right, in the human experience.

Mandy Kaplan:
And yeah, it’s very, very powerful and very sneaky, because you think you’re just watching, like, this cool special effects, you know—

Justin Jaeger:
Beautiful, yeah, yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
Is it gonna be a war? You think you’re watching one thing. You don’t know you’re watching essentially a movie about one woman’s grief. I know that’s not the whole thing, but—

Justin Jaeger:
No, but it is. I mean, and now, because you were so emotionally moved in that section, do you remember how it resolved? Because she says, go ask your father. She starts walking up the stairs, and then Ian, Jeremy Renner, tells Louise in the past, but she experiences it at the same time.

Mandy Kaplan:
In present day. Or back to our present day.

Justin Jaeger:
So she gets to tell Hannah in that moment—

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.

Justin Jaeger:
—from the dad, because time doesn’t exist. Like, oh, it’s so good.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah, I don’t know.

Justin Jaeger:
And it’s emotional, like it’s pitch-perfect emotionally. It’s beautiful. And there’s almost no music. Like that’s the thing too. In all these other movies we’re talking about, there’s all this music and this stuff to take away. There are subtle ambient, like background things, but you are experiencing this movie as if you are present in it. And gosh, I like it so much.

Mandy Kaplan:
But when there is music, it’s flawless.

Justin Jaeger:
Oh, flawless.

Mandy Kaplan:
Beautiful score.

Justin Jaeger:
I agree.

Mandy Kaplan:
Beautiful.

Justin Jaeger:
Yes.

Mandy Kaplan:
I can see myself taking a bath and listening to this score, which is something I like to do with movie scores.

Justin Jaeger:
Yes, exactly. Nice.

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay. Oh my gosh. JJ, tell us one more time about Jayge’s Pages. Where can everybody find it?

Justin Jaeger:
Jayge’s Pages is on YouTube, and I put stuff on TikTok now too. But the thing that it is is just all of the books that I’ve read over the past years that started in 2008. I am up to 2024 now. I’ve got the chronological reviews that I wrote out on Goodreads, and I’m talking about them on YouTube. So if you look up Jayge’s Pages by Justin Jaeger on YouTube, you will find me there, and a whole bunch of books, all different genres. Lots of fun conversations. And I’m doing it because I like conversations just like this. This is why this exists for me. This is what I want to do with my time and my life. So thank you for having me here. And anyone who wants to talk movies and books, I’m into it.

Mandy Kaplan:
Thank you, thank you, thank you. You people can also catch you on The Film Board.

Justin Jaeger:
Oh yes.

Mandy Kaplan:
And, you know, conversations like this, I love them too. And if you tried it at a dinner party, people might roll their eyes halfway through, right? We get it, you love this movie, move on. And this allows us to really explore and really get down and nerdy.

Justin Jaeger:
Yes, I’ve had that experience with people at parties all the time.

Mandy Kaplan:
Thank you.

Justin Jaeger:
And I want these conversations instead.

Mandy Kaplan:
Perfect timing. They sensed. All right. Thank you, JJ. Thank you, everybody, for listening. Until next time.

Justin Jaeger:
Thank you.