Mandy Fabian
And in five, four, let’s take it live, folks. Hi everybody! Hello and welcome to Craft and Chaos. This is our little show about climbing Mount Creativity. Sherpaless! That’s right, we are sans Sherpa here and living to tell the buzzy, gory, and sometimes quite heroic tales. I am Mandy Fabian. Filmmaker and nut job. And I am joined by the freakishly productive creative writer and podcaster Pete Wright, novelist most likely to be mistaken for a race car driver, Ryan Dalton. And legendary playwright Kyle Olson, who was recently hired by ChatGPT because they were running out of new ideas. Thank you everybody for coming on board our little hike today, and go team go.
Ryan Dalton
I’m broadcasting from the race car today, so yeah.
Mandy Fabian
Hi everybody!
Pete Wright
Go, team, go.
Kyle Olson
That’s right.
Pete Wright
Oh, that’s so good.
Kyle Olson
Happy to be at the base of the mountain with you all.
Mandy Fabian
Super fast. Oh God, I really thought we were like midway.
Kyle Olson
Oh, are we?
Pete Wright
Oh, then we’re in trouble.
Kyle Olson
Oh, okay.
Pete Wright
No, nothing screams success at this point.
Mandy Fabian
Oh Jesus, I gotta check my notes. Oh my God. This week I’m bringing lots of fun. It’s fun for me, but I don’t think it’s fun for everyone. But the general concept of truth. I don’t know about you guys, but in my family I’m a truth teller and they hate me for it. And I’m really curious about how we use it in our work and to ourselves. And I’m wondering just first off, like, how are you? Is there anything that has struck you in the face? Have there been any big revelations creatively this week for any of you? I could go first.
Kyle Olson
Yeah, if you got something in the chamber, fire away.
Mandy Fabian
Do you want me to go first? See what I mean? Honesty. It’s not easy for everybody, especially in the business of show.
Kyle Olson
Yeah.
Mandy Fabian
We don’t like to reveal our little underbellies. Is that what they’re called? Underbellies? Anyway, I have been doing something that was very scary. This week I went, well, this wasn’t scary. I went on a writer’s retreat in Portugal. And it was actually really nice. But I know, luxury problems.
Pete Wright
Oh, I’m so sorry. Your hardship is overwhelming.
Kyle Olson
I’m so sorry.
Mandy Fabian
Yeah. No, I mean it was scary because they didn’t have gluten-free granola. And I was like, did I have a granola?
Kyle Olson
Oh yeah, what a nightmare.
Mandy Fabian
Oh my god. Is this gonna be like yin yoga? Because I really prefer an Ashtanga. No, no, I was working on a book. This is my first time writing a book.
Kyle Olson
Oh, yeah.
Mandy Fabian
That I started before my kids were born, and it is about — I’m writing a book to my teenage girls, and I am freaking loving it, but it is so much work. And way more work than I thought. I was like, I’m gonna go for a week and just like get it done because I’m pretty much almost there. I have so many ideas. Yeah, Ryan’s laughing.
Ryan Dalton
Pause for five minutes of a laugh break. Four fifty-eight.
Mandy Fabian
I really thought I was so much further and then every bit that I was like, oh right, that bit. Oh my god, it’s taking me four hours and I’m still not — so anyway.
Ryan Dalton
I have to create all the words, not just some of them.
Mandy Fabian
Yeah. And then I have to edit them because they’re not perfect when they just come out of my body the first time. So newfound deep respect for you, Ryan.
Ryan Dalton
Well, thanks. Well, for one thing, congrats on diving in and being willing to do it and put in the work. That’s super cool. Is it fiction or non-fiction?
Mandy Fabian
Thank you. It is nonfiction. It is called You’re Okay, Go Play. And it is basically a handbook for life that I wish that my mother had given me. Everything from how to deal with the big topics. I mean, seriously — death, sex, religion, God, friendship, romance, dating, all of it. But then I’m also doing these little things of like, what do you do when you get a parking ticket? How do you — why should you floss your teeth with that disgusting mouth hole you have? You know, stuff like that.
Pete Wright
Does every chapter open with, “here’s another thing that bitch my mother never told me”?
Mandy Fabian
Yeah. Wow, was I unprepared?
Ryan Dalton
Catharsis, volume one.
Pete Wright
It’s Memoir and Vindication by Mandy Fabian.
Mandy Fabian
It’s so true. It’s so true.
Kyle Olson
Well, I say you’ve already got the elevator pitch down, so kudos on that. I’ve finished projects and not been able to do that. But there’s also — I mean, you’ve already got your bullet points ready, so you have a map of where you’re going.
Mandy Fabian
Thank you. It’s a miracle because I can also not do that for any of the scripts I’ve ever written. I’m always like, do you have five minutes? I could tell you. And then in act two — so yeah, I get it. Has anybody else had a fun surprise this week?
Ryan Dalton
I’m doing something interesting. I’m writing right now. I’m mid-first draft on this novel that I’m working on. And it was an idea — I sort of alluded to it, I think, last time we talked. I said I had an old idea that I just kind of randomly heard the right song and ended up coming with the right solution. And I thought, okay, while this is hot, I’m going to try to just blaze through this first draft. So I’m about twelve thousand words in at the moment. Still very much in the beginning stages, but it’s cracking along. However —
Pete Wright
However.
Ryan Dalton
This is a thriller, which I’ve never really written a full-on thriller before. I’ve done mysteries, I’ve done other things, but it’s a thriller mystery. And one thing I’m discovering about myself is that in the non-serious, non-thriller scenes, I can’t not write quirky characters being weird and funny. So I go into a scene expecting it to be sort of tense and ominous — and just because, you know, these are kind of seed scenes right now that are setting things up — but I can’t make the supporting characters be tense and ominous. They are silly billies, and they continue to be silly and to make little remarks and have little quirks. And I was telling some of my family this yesterday. I was like, maybe I just have to accept that I’ll never write anything wholly serious. It’ll have to be like thriller comedies where you’ve got the funny, silly, and then things get real. But yeah, that’s just been an interesting revelation to me that whatever gear I’m in writing-wise, a little bit of comedy is apparently permanently stuck in there no matter what else I’m writing.
Pete Wright
That probably means you’re gonna one day have to come up with another pseudonym. Maybe have you considered J.K. Rowling? I think that’s probably available. And write something completely straight because nobody will believe that it’s even possible for you. That’ll be a fun little bit of mad science.
Ryan Dalton
Yeah. And I don’t think there’s any greater value to wholly serious stuff. So it’s not like I feel like, oh, I want to be taken seriously as a writer, because I don’t feel that way at all. It was just trying for a different tone because it’s a different type of book. But some of the old me is inevitably going to creep in, I guess.
Pete Wright
For sure.
Kyle Olson
Well, we would hope so. I mean, because we have everyone else.
Ryan Dalton
Yeah, right.
Kyle Olson
So I will say, I had — this is gonna come up — this is, I guess, a humble brag then being humbled, because I’m gonna do a flex. But don’t worry, I’m gonna screw it up by the end. So I had someone reach out to me to want to do one of my plays. They reached out and said — it’s an older thing, it’s probably like ten years old, I hadn’t even looked at it — and they said they found it, they liked it, they wanted to do it.
Kyle Olson
And I vetted them because my first thought was, well, this is clearly a bot that someone has sicced on me to try and get — like, oh yeah, all you need to do is send us information on your PayPal and then we’ll get the deal. But they’re a real human being who wanted to really do it. And the weird thing is they had contacted me on Instagram, which already seemed a little suspect. And then I realized why — because I went back to my page on New Play Exchange and realized I had never posted my contact information on that page. For years, I’ve been posting my scripts as like, hey, if you want to do my scripts, here they are available. Zero contact information.
Pete Wright
The Phantom Playwright strikes again.
Kyle Olson
Yeah, it’s like the exact opposite. It’s just like, here they all are and you’ll never find me.
Mandy Fabian
Oh god.
Pete Wright
I did not see that twist coming, Kyle. That’s the best.
Kyle Olson
I know. I was like, I am so bad at this.
Mandy Fabian
Well, don’t you write under the name Diablo Cody? Isn’t that why?
Kyle Olson
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mandy Fabian
Yeah.
Kyle Olson
Well, I dance under the name Diablo Cody, so I can see why that can be a little confusing.
Mandy Fabian
Oh yeah, that’s right. That’s right. I’m sorry I missed your show, by the way.
Kyle Olson
Yeah, well, you know, I mean, there’s only ten seats. They fill up fast.
Kyle Olson
So it’s moving forward. The contracts are being done and all that kind of stuff too. And it’s great because it’s a play I had sort of written and tossed to the wind — it’s never had a table reading, it’s never had anything. I was like, okay, well clearly no one likes this, and so off to the dustbin it went. And then suddenly this person — and kudos to her, because not only did she find it, read it, and liked it, she then had to do detective work to track me down to find me to get this thing.
Mandy Fabian
Whoa, oh my gosh. That’s great, but are they gonna do it? Is it on? Fantastic!
Kyle Olson
They’re gonna do it. Yeah. So I’ve already been paid twice this year to write, which is a brand new record for me.
Mandy Fabian
Congratulations!
Ryan Dalton
Nice.
Kyle Olson
So it’s kind of amazing, but I am my own worst enemy.
Pete Wright
I have said time and time again, it is stupid that your stuff isn’t produced more. And now I realize that it’s on you.
Kyle Olson
Now why? ‘Cause no one can find me.
Mandy Fabian
It really was stupid. We just didn’t know who was stupid.
Pete Wright
We just didn’t know who was responsible for the stupid.
Kyle Olson
That’s right.
Ryan Dalton
Just tell people you’ve been playing the long game, building up a lot of anticipation.
Kyle Olson
That’s right. My arch nemesis has been walking by me in the mirror every day.
Pete Wright
But there’s only one set of footsteps in the sand. What could be going wrong?
Mandy Fabian
Did you make your wife look you up after your first date? Is this a trend for you?
Ryan Dalton
I’ll see you again if you can find me.
Pete Wright
I find that way too funny, only because it is exactly the kind of thing I feel like I would do. And so it’s ridiculous, and I really appreciate you actually coming to the panel with that story because I needed it this week.
Kyle Olson
Just to be like, hey, if people out there, if you want people to build your stuff, be findable.
Pete Wright
Yeah, that’s really good.
Mandy Fabian
Very brave.
Ryan Dalton
See, these are the kind of pro-level tips that people come here for.
Mandy Fabian
That’s right. This kind of leads into what I wanted to talk about, like brutal honesty. When you’re noodling in your work — my question really is, because I use the truth in a lot of my stuff, right? I am inspired by true events. Very typically, even the more outrageous a scenario is, to be honest, it’s usually a scenario that has actually happened. That way in the room, when they go, “I’m sorry, that’s just not believable,” I can be like, call this person because it really happened. I can actually say, I know it’s not believable, but it’s real. And I’m just wondering, for you guys, how much of that inspires you or infiltrates your work at all? Because I’ve often wondered, am I just not creative, or am I just inspired by honest things? Sometimes it’s a theme, but I’m just curious if you guys use that or if you like the things that are inspired by true events.
Pete Wright
This is actually a very timely question for me. Over on the NextReel podcast we’re doing a series on movies that are true stories of people stuck in their own fraud. We’re calling the series True Lies, and we’ve done Can You Ever Forgive Me, about Lee Israel, the author who started fabricating letters by Noel Coward and such. Fantastic. We did The Hoax — Richard Gere writes an autobiography of Howard Hughes that he thought he could get away with, not telling Howard Hughes he was doing it, because he thought the guy wouldn’t come out of hiding. Shattered Glass, the story of Stephen Glass at the New Republic, just making stuff up from whole cloth and printing it as real. Quiz Show — Ralph Fiennes plays Charlie Van Doren, the brilliant academic who gets wrapped up in his own ego and starts lying on quiz shows in the fifties. And the last one we’re going to do is Big Eyes, which is the only one I’ve never seen of the series, where Amy Adams has her lame husband, Christoph Waltz, take credit for her paintings.
Pete Wright
And all of these stories I find fascinating because of what they’re wrestling with. They either come out of some form of desperation — economic, psychological, relational, ego-driven — and the act of fraud helps answer some question for them. And these movies really celebrate the undercurrent of whatever is going on with them. So I am deeply inspired by stories inspired by true events, especially when they’re about people lying. For some reason — I think there’s a little bit of sociopathy baked in there — but these are a great exploration of what it is that drives people to do the things they do.
Pete Wright
And I think putting a label on whatever it is I’m working on that says this is a thing that’s going to be truth helps me not wrestle with the wrong thing. When I was writing the ADHD book, all the stories in there are from my life. And that means I don’t have to worry about the creativity of inventing anything from cloth. I get to just find a way to make my life serve as a warning for others. I think that is helpful. And I kind of live more in that space, probably, than the complete fabulist.
Mandy Fabian
Do you tend towards documentaries and stuff more than fictional things?
Pete Wright
Not at all.
Mandy Fabian
Oh, interesting.
Pete Wright
I do love a good documentary, but I’ll take fiction almost every time.
Mandy Fabian
Interesting.
Ryan Dalton
If you’re looking for a couple more, and I haven’t seen these — they’re on my list — but there’s that one movie that was all about the whole Theranos scam.
Pete Wright
Yes, that’s a newer one. I haven’t seen that yet.
Ryan Dalton
That looks interesting. And there’s another one that it’s not quite in line, but I feel like you could maybe in spirit be able to use it. I think it’s called The Luckiest Man on Earth.
Kyle Olson
Yes, yeah.
Ryan Dalton
It’s about the guy everyone was sure was committing fraud, but he was not. It’s about the guy who figured out how Press Your Luck worked.
Kyle Olson
Press Your Luck, yeah.
Ryan Dalton
He was able to figure out how it worked, and there was no fraud. He kind of watched the show and examined it enough to be able to break it. And he was accused of fraud a lot as he was winning.
Pete Wright
Wow. Okay. Yeah, I haven’t seen any of those. Awesome.
Kyle Olson
And so I’ll take the little bit of the fabulist then, because I say, lie to me. When I watch any of those things, I don’t want historical accuracy. If I want that, there are history books. And there’s also history. When they’re making a movie of a thing — like at its dramatic core — I don’t care about historical accuracy at all. I want you to tell me the story the way you want to tell it to me. I would prefer Rocketman or Bohemian Rhapsody, which have huge amounts of lies, as opposed to the other ones who strictly stick to the facts, because fantasy to me is more interesting than reality. We have a lot of reality, but I’d rather have more fantasy.
Kyle Olson
So I try, in my own stuff, to have as much human things in them. I mean, the play that’s published is based on true events, pretty loosely though — not enough that someone would sue. It really happened, and then it’s sort of like one sentence and then everything else goes off from there. So there is a little bit of catching on to real life and putting real things in. But in my stuff, I’m not interested in doing any type of historical thing to tell the story of X, Y, or Z. I like when someone does it well, but I’m not interested in trying to make sure that the facts are right. The facts are right because I say they’re right and not because of reality.
Pete Wright
There’s a really interesting point in there, Kyle, because I will say, I’m not always looking for the literal factual truth. And all of these movies have been a real sort of litmus test for me because normally when it says “based on a true story,” I’m suspect, because of honestly the Steve Jobs movie. That is an area that I know a lot about, and that movie got so much wrong, and I was mad.
Kyle Olson
Yeah. We talked about that, and also like Saturday Night for me too.
Pete Wright
Yes.
Kyle Olson
I would watch that like, ooh, no, no, no, no, no.
Pete Wright
Right. But then you look at movies like — I mean, God, you mentioned Rocketman. And the other one you just mentioned, Bohemian Rhapsody. It makes me think of Better Man. Right? Better Man tells the story of Robbie Williams. Robbie Williams replaces himself with a monkey in that movie. And by doing that, he tells the emotional truth of all of these elements without needing to burden the film with so much historical accuracy, and you still feel like you were told the truth. It’s just kind of a truth with quotes around it. And I walk out of that movie and I’m still okay. And that movie was transcendent.
Kyle Olson
Yes. One of the most amazing depictions of anxiety ever.
Pete Wright
So good.
Kyle Olson
You understand an anxiety attack in a whole different way once you see that. It was incredible. And once again, it’s a guy who’s CG’d into a chimp.
Pete Wright
Yep.
Kyle Olson
And yet somehow it’s true.
Pete Wright
Yep. All to answer the question of, how do you see yourself, Robbie Williams? I see myself like a performing monkey dragged on stage for others’ entertainment. That’s the core truth of the movie, and that comes across in spades.
Mandy Fabian
That’s brilliant. I feel like I’ve been seeing so many things that I find myself then googling it, going, like, how much of this is true? And was that really? And did they? Baby Reindeer was one that everybody was watching, and it was like, you know, I mean, obviously he expanded on the truth, but most of the story was true and it’s just the most outrageous thing.
Mandy Fabian
And I think sometimes for me, it grounds it in a way. I get adrenaline in my body, excited adrenaline, when someone is gonna tell me a story that really happened, in a safe way. Do you know what I mean? If it was on the news, I’d be like, oh God, oh no, that’s terrible, the world is unsafe. But because they did it in this form, it’s this peeping Tom thing — or peeping Tina, I guess, in my case. I just get so excited by it. It really ramps it up for me. I get doubly invested.
Pete Wright
Just a point of clarification. Baby Driver was an original Edgar Wright. Are you thinking of a different movie? Because now I want to know what movie that was.
Mandy Fabian
Oh my god, wait, no. Baby Reindeer.
Kyle Olson
Oh, Baby Reindeer.
Pete Wright
Oh, Baby Reindeer, a hundred percent.
Mandy Fabian
Baby Reindeer, not Baby Driver. Oh my god, I’m so sorry.
Ryan Dalton
That’s a little different.
Mandy Fabian
But he drove during Baby Reindeer, so that’s what must have — there are cars in the movie.
Pete Wright
Yes.
Mandy Fabian
There are cars in the movie. So I’m not wrong. I’m not wrong.
Kyle Olson
No, no, Baby Reindeer.
Mandy Fabian
There were babies and there were drivers.
Pete Wright
Yeah, no. The emotional truth was present.
Mandy Fabian
Yeah. The truth is I’m not wrong.
Kyle Olson
Yes. There are drivers in Baby Reindeer, but there are no reindeer in Baby Driver.
Pete Wright
Yeah.
Mandy Fabian
Yes, that’s right.
Kyle Olson
So all right, we’ve got that squared away.
Pete Wright
We’re covered.
Mandy Fabian
Jesus, oh my god, that must have been confusing for a second.
Kyle Olson
Yeah, why — I think both Pete and I were searching through a mental Rolodex.
Mandy Fabian
What is she talking about?
Kyle Olson
I’m like, I’m pretty sure —
Ryan Dalton
I was just thinking, when he drifted around that corner, there was some real emotional truth to that moment.
Pete Wright
Oh my God, it really pulled me one way and then the other.
Kyle Olson
Where do you land on this, Dalton?
Ryan Dalton
I’m not inclined — I mean, I’m fine with “based on a true story” stories if they’re compelling. It doesn’t — typically, and I’m sure there’s exceptions, like if I had some titles in front of me — I wouldn’t typically say it enhances my enjoyment of it. Just because I love fiction so much.
Mandy Fabian
I’m dying to make so many jokes right now, but I won’t. About enhancing your enjoyment. But I’m not gonna do that.
Ryan Dalton
Oh man. Yeah, and you could tell I’m on allergy medicine because I did not even realize what I said. But with this last adventure, there were scenes that were definitely taken from life. They weren’t exactly as they happened, but I was glad that my family was okay with me borrowing some family stories to adapt. So in that kind of book, I feel like it really helped, just because among the bits of fantasy sequences, there was supposed to be a lot of things that were going to feel true — true enough to resonate with people. And so being able to use actual real stuff as the basis for that, I do think was very helpful, because I had a lot of people who came to me saying how much they identified with it and how real it felt and how much it — some of the things mirrored things that they had experienced, even if they were going through things with family that didn’t have Alzheimer’s like the character, but they had other things. There was still a kernel of truth in there for them as well. So I do think it definitely enhanced that book. Now my other books are sci-fi mostly, so — yeah, all true.
Pete Wright
All true.
Ryan Dalton
Yeah, can’t really talk about it beyond that, but —
Mandy Fabian
I have a follow-up question, specifically for you, Ryan. One, do you clear things with your family before you’re going to use elements of things that have actually happened, if it’s a family thing? And two, are there, even though you’re writing sci-fi, themes that are true for you? Like, do you work with ideas?
Ryan Dalton
Yeah, good questions.
Kyle Olson
As your counsel, I advise you not to answer the first question and just move on to the second question.
Mandy Fabian
Well no, I’m dying to know that.
Ryan Dalton
Okay, yeah. I will exert my fifth amendment rights on advice of counsel, and we’ll see you later. So I did sort of in general make sure before — because I knew I was going to have to do that — I made sure beforehand that family was okay with me taking some stuff that had really happened and sort of generalizing it a little bit. Fortunately, I didn’t have any pushback at all. They were all totally cool with it.
Ryan Dalton
As far as the other books, yeah, I mean I always — something that I will say when I teach classes is that you can make a story that’s as fantastical as you absolutely want to, and the readers will go along with you as long as your characters think, act, and feel like actual people. And so there has to be truth in the sense that they feel like real people that are going through real things, having real person reactions and doing the things a real person would. And that has to be there in order for the reader to engage with everything else.
Ryan Dalton
So I guess on a general level, I do have to make sure that the people feel real. Sometimes I do take mannerisms from people I know or have met. Sometimes they will say something that I will latch onto — I will pull out my phone immediately and say, “that’s going in a book,” and I’ll write it down. And typically they don’t object.
Pete Wright
And they all think you’re joking for about two years.
Kyle Olson
To be a writer is to be a magpie.
Ryan Dalton
Yeah, at least in the moment they’re usually flattered, like, “oh well, sure, yeah, put it in the book.” But yeah, I think on certain levels there has to be truth in every book in that way, even if your events are completely out of the realm of truth.
Pete Wright
So a clarification question on that answer. When you are writing in truth, especially with your last adventure where you’re taking things from the family, did you find you asked permission before you wrote, or asked forgiveness after you wrote it?
Ryan Dalton
About specific scenes, I never asked. I only asked in general — are you cool with me using some stuff that I know happened? And then, you know, if there had been a particular scene or a line that somebody was genuinely upset by, I would probably have revisited it in some way. But I didn’t get any pushback like that. So it wasn’t a concern. It was more of an in-general thing where I was just like, hey, you’re cool with me doing that? And then I just assumed that I had permission and moved on.
Pete Wright
Yeah, so that thing with the granddad and the pony and the jello — that was all just covered under the blanket.
Ryan Dalton
I mean, I did change the names, but yeah.
Kyle Olson
That’s what’s fun about the end, is that I have killed many bosses over the course of my writing career, but they would never know.
Mandy Fabian
Oh, interesting. So you channel actual rage.
Kyle Olson
Yes. Oh, yes. I have a lot of catharsis. There’s a lot of blood in between the lines on my pages. Not for me.
Pete Wright
Mandy, what about you? When I watch your stuff, I always assume it’s like all you.
Mandy Fabian
Yeah, I’ve written like three movies about mothers leaving their children. So that’s — that’s not true, but I would say — not yet, knock wood.
Kyle Olson
Something to look forward to.
Mandy Fabian
But I think it’s probably, you know — that’s like my worst kind of fear, right? Or that’s the darkest part of — I can understand, even though I didn’t have postpartum or anything serious like that, I really did enjoy being a mom, but I could understand that that would be the worst and hardest decision that a woman could make and maybe would have to make for whatever reason. So I actually have written like three different things or made films about mothers not getting to be with their children, in that way. And I’ve written a lot of movies about friends fighting.
Mandy Fabian
And Somebody’s Mother is a short film that I did that’s absolutely autobiographical. I mean, it is about a woman who has young kids and her mom starts dating and brings home her new boyfriend for the Christmas holidays. And that actually happened. My mom, when my dad died, after a respectful period of grief, she was dating like crazy. And I kind of just dreamed of this movie that was not me. The characters, all the names were changed, but it was definitely events in my life that I was sorting out — like, who is the mom here? Because she’s the one running off like a giddy teenage girl and not showing up for Christmas Eve and springing a new guest on me at the last minute. And so I was kind of working that out.
Mandy Fabian
What I didn’t know was how I was going to feel after I had shot the film, edited the film, completed the film, and then showed my mom. And as I turned it on for her, I think I literally said, “If you don’t like it, I don’t have to show it to anybody.” Which was a lie. I was like, what am I gonna say if she says don’t show it to anybody? What am I gonna do? Thank God she was weeping and saw it as a love letter to her, because it wasn’t mean spirited. It was just, you know. But yeah.
Ryan Dalton
I could really see a scene of her like, “okay, don’t show it,” and then later, “oh no, Mom, someone stole my film and put it in all these festivals. I have nothing to do with it, I’m so sorry.”
Kyle Olson
I’ve tried to track her down.
Mandy Fabian
I got hacked. By a film producer, believe it or — yeah.
Pete Wright
Did you hear about the Sony hack? I mean, I wasn’t a part of it, but it’s like that.
Kyle Olson
They’re going across the country with this thing. I mean, we’re trying to stop ’em.
Mandy Fabian
Yeah.
Kyle Olson
Now they’ve gone to Europe? It’s crazy.
Ryan Dalton
I’ll also say, it is funny how — but the things people will read or — I’m wondering actually if it’s the same for film — if they know you’ve made it. Sometimes I’ll have someone, like a friend or family, talk about something that a character said in a book as if they believe that I must believe that, or that must be me. Or they think every character is you. And if a character says something or believes something, it must be you saying it. And I’ve had to educate some people who are like — who don’t normally talk with authors — that no, those are just — think of those as other people. I don’t have to share beliefs with them. So just yeah, that’s not all me saying this.
Mandy Fabian
Yeah. I do that with actors, for God’s sake. If you listen to them on a podcast or you watch their show religiously, and then if you ever get the chance to see them or see that they’re gonna be in town doing a show or whatever, all of a sudden I’m like, oh, it’s my best friend, I have to be there. It’s crazy how it feels so real.
Mandy Fabian
And I do think that’s what good writing is, though. It’s not me in all of my characters, because I’m just not that interesting. It’s more that what I think is interesting about people. So in that way it’s filtered through my point of view. I’ve taken what I think is the most interesting and maybe a little bit dangerous and weird and funny thing about characters that’s real to me, and then I put that in.
Kyle Olson
So for all those out there — you’re getting in an intense situation and someone says something and you say something incredibly stupid, and then the next day you’re in the shower and you think of, “that’s what I should have said.” Congratulations, you’re a writer. Now you can make that scene into something and you can be like, oh, what a savage takedown, and then get that loop out of your head.
Mandy Fabian
I really like that take on it. I really like the idea that you get to live your best life by writing things that are cooler and sexier and smarter and maybe even more vengeful and violent than you are. That’s really fun. But an honest instinct anyway.
Mandy Fabian
Should we — do we have any — are we ad supported this week?
Kyle Olson
Yes, I believe we do have a sponsor.
Mandy Fabian
Yes?
Pete Wright
We do. No, because we separate editorial from ad sales, so we don’t know.
Kyle Olson
Yeah, we don’t know.
Pete Wright
Any of this is completely new to us, but I believe — yeah, let’s throw to a sponsor.
Mandy Fabian
Oh my gosh. Well then, let the games begin.
[AD BREAK: THE OTHER ORANGE]
Hello fellow humans. One thing that we all both love and totally understand is gambling. Placing money on the outcome of random events. What a thrill. Automobile racing, sports ball, chinchilla fights. Who knows who will prevail? But here is a fact that’s fun. Did you know that 99% of people who gamble lose their money? It’s true. It causes undue strain on relationships and employment. We here at The Other Orange have a new idea. If you’re going to throw your money away, why not throw it at us? Take half of what you were going to be losing on your bets and give it to us. What will we do with the money? That’s the fun part — you don’t know. Will we train owls to steal backwards ball caps? Or paint a building to look like a nearby smaller building? Or give it to our new friend Randy, who says he has an investment opportunity that can’t lose? Who knows? Definitely not you, though. The Other Orange. Goods, services, and now a secret third thing. Give us your money and no one gets hurt.
[END AD BREAK]
Pete Wright
Oh God.
Kyle Olson
It makes a lot of sense.
Ryan Dalton
You had me at chinchilla fights.
Pete Wright
Yes, chinchilla fights and backward baseball cap owls.
Mandy Fabian
Did you say sports ball?
Kyle Olson
Sportsball, yeah.
Pete Wright
Oh God, the moment that music started, my first thought and only thought was — thank God The Other Orange is back.
Mandy Fabian
Oh yeah.
Pete Wright
I was worried that they might not have the budget this season, but thank God they’re back.
Kyle Olson
I’d say I think we’re still the only podcast they sponsor, so yeah.
Mandy Fabian
Well, they really like cutting-edge content.
Ryan Dalton
I think they’re doubling down actually.
Pete Wright
It’s amazing. They sure do.
Mandy Fabian
You know what I mean? The fact that we’re just not afraid to say it like it is.
Kyle Olson
I mean, there was a post that came up on Tumblr that said — like, every ad and it’s like a mildly attractive person says, “hey, times are hard right now. Have you thought about gambling?” And I was like, oh wow.
Pete Wright
That’s where we are then, huh?
Kyle Olson
That’s where we are.
Pete Wright
As a people.
Kyle Olson
That’s where we are.
Mandy Fabian
Oh God. Yeah, it’s so fun at first, isn’t it? Such a good time. I used to just go up to blackjack tables and throw them a hundred dollar bill and be like, all right, and that’s pretty much how it’s gonna go, right? See ya. We’ll just leave this here. That was back in the day.
Pete Wright
Just all in and walk away.
Mandy Fabian
And then I quickly ran back and got my hundo. I’m not a high roller or anything.
Mandy Fabian
All right, well, I have another question to ask you guys. This may make you uncomfortable. This is something that I’ve had to encounter, but I’m genuinely curious about the idea — especially as an artist, especially as you’re beginning in doing this kind of thing. And I imagine we might have a few people listening who are beginning, maybe. It’s the idea of fake it till you make it. And what’s honest?
Mandy Fabian
Like, when I started to do comedy, I hadn’t really — I auditioned for this thing. I hadn’t ever done improv. And I just kind of figured out that I’m gonna put myself in the place that I want to be. So I got into the B company of this comedy thing, and then I went to all of the A company rehearsals and just sat there for months. And then I would go to every show, even though I was not invited. I wasn’t disinvited, but I just kept showing up and kept showing up and kept showing up. And in a way, it was kind of fake it till you make it.
Mandy Fabian
And certainly in business meetings sometimes — I just wonder if there’s ever been a moment or something where you realized, oh, I have to be bigger than I feel right now, or I have to pretend to know more because I know I’m gonna be able to figure it out. Like when you started writing, was there something that you had to be like, I’m just gonna act like a world-class playwright, novelist, writer, or podcaster? Was there ever a fake it till you make it moment for you where you had to be it before you were it?
Pete Wright
Oh no, yeah. I know Kyle has one, but don’t worry, he won’t attach his name or contact information to it.
Kyle Olson
That’s right, you’ll never know.
Ryan Dalton
I can kick this off. I called myself a writer since I was a kid. I always saw myself and referred to myself that way, even through a lot of years when I did it just a little bit, as a hobby. I hadn’t yet decided to pursue it as a profession. It just felt right to call myself that. And it just became more true over time as I actually started doing it. Once I started getting paid to do it, I started calling myself an author. That’s just how I referred to myself. I never questioned it.
Ryan Dalton
So yeah, I guess in a sense, I always saw one of those like visualizations of myself as something that I was not yet becoming for years. And I do think it helped along the way when I finally did it.
Mandy Fabian
Did you know it was gonna be books? Did you see yourself — like, were you in Maui looking out at the ocean? Was there something that was your big vision of, this is what I’m going towards? Or was it just fire?
Ryan Dalton
Well, it was always books. It was always books more than anything. And I like writing lots of different things. I actually, even though I’ve never done it professionally, enjoy writing in screenplay style because it goes towards my strengths of what I’m good at writing anyway. But I knew that professionally I wanted to do novels, because those are the things that as a kid onward I fell in love with. And that’s what I wanted to be able to create.
Ryan Dalton
And then I was ten years old and had a friend publish a book at that point. And that was the first actual real life person I knew that had something that was on shelves. And so that was another step along the way of, oh yeah, a normal person can do this. And I never really knew that anybody else noticed that I did that, but some of my family pointed out at one point after I’d gotten my first book contract — they were like, well, you always called yourself a writer, so you just kind of made it come true. And at that point I realized, oh yeah, I did always call myself a writer, even when I wasn’t doing it.
Ryan Dalton
So maybe it was fake it till you make it to me, not really to anyone else. But I do think it contributed.
Mandy Fabian
Well, the fact that you said it out loud to other people — I mean, if they heard you say it, you were faking it till you made it, you know. But you were just confident that that’s what you were, which is very cool.
Ryan Dalton
Yeah, I just never questioned it. I felt like that was part of the whole core of me, even when I wasn’t doing it as a pro yet. So yeah, I guess I did do it outwardly some more than I realized.
Pete Wright
A bit of a hallmark for me is knowing that there is truth when I walk into a room where I’m objectively underqualified — that the answer in my head is, “I don’t know how to do what I’m being asked to do, but I’m sure I’ll be able to know by tomorrow” is the same as saying out loud, “yes.” And that’s okay, right? It’s okay to have that kind of confidence when that’s the field that I’m in.
Pete Wright
And it certainly was the case when I started podcasting twenty years ago. Nobody even knew what to do with it. So luckily, nobody I was in a room with had the answers either. So I could say yes and figure it out on the way, because nobody else knew what the answers were that they were asking for. So it was the perfect kind of test. I wish more tests were like that.
Mandy Fabian
That’s interesting. So there wasn’t a lot of it going on, so you didn’t feel as much pressure to hit some bar or something. But really, the first time you ever put together a podcast, you didn’t have imposter syndrome or poser feelings?
Pete Wright
I came out of broadcast. I came out of television. And so the act of being on a podcast or hosting a podcast was not a thing I ever had any real trouble with because I was trained to be on camera or on mic. So that was easy. The harder part was figuring out how to sell it and figure out what I was selling, because there were a lot of podcasts at the time, but they were all like nerdcasts and nobody knew how to make money from them. They were all just fun.
Pete Wright
And I was going out there to businesses saying, “I will podcast you,” and it will be good for a brand. And I don’t know what it is — it’s the underpants gnome syndrome, right? Steal underpants, question mark, profit. I was living in the question mark. But you figure it out. You figure it out because I was confident in all of the surrounding skills. The hole in the middle I felt like would come into focus once we started doing it. I just had to work with enough people that felt comfortable in that uncertainty that we all just kind of learned together.
Mandy Fabian
Yeah, that makes sense. And then as it gets bigger — did you ever — was there something like when you were writing your book? Was that a thing? Was that your first book?
Pete Wright
There was a lot of uncertainty for that because we were approached by the publisher. The publisher had been listening to the podcast and said, “Hey, you podcast. You think book, maybe?” And we said, okay.
Mandy Fabian
I like that everyone in your world talks like cavemen.
Pete Wright
Yeah, I’ve decided that’s my thing today. It really exemplifies uncertainty. That’s what’s going on in my head. “You think baby book?” That’s what I felt like. It’s amazing.
Pete Wright
So there was an enormous amount of imposter syndrome there, because I had written a number of books that had never seen light beyond my desk drawer. And this was one that they wanted and we’d have to give to them and they would do things with it. And we didn’t know what those things were. It was just, figure it out. So yeah, there was a lot of imposter syndrome there.
Pete Wright
I remember the first time — we have a friend in town who does talent salons. They invite friends over to perform talent in their living room. And it’s really quite a lovely thing. And usually I’ll sing or play the piano or something like that. But for the first time, the year we’d written the book — it had not been sent to the publisher yet — and I said, I’m gonna do a reading. And I read a chapter on failure that I had written. And the ten people in the room applauded. And I was like, oh. Oh crap, okay. I get it now. Like all at once. I’d spent hours and hours at the Barnes and Noble coffee shop in our neighborhood writing this stupid book, and now I understand why. And that was the moment the imposter syndrome just kind of unlocked.
Mandy Fabian
That’s great. I love it.
Pete Wright
I don’t know, did I answer your question? I may have gotten off track with the cave talk.
Mandy Fabian
No. No. You keep calling poser syndrome “imposter syndrome,” but we can cut that out.
Pete Wright
Okay, I’ll talk to the editor.
Kyle Olson
Pete makes words good.
Mandy Fabian
Indeed.
Kyle Olson
So, it might — I’ll set the writing stuff aside because that has its own ups and downs. But the other thing that we’re doing is happening right now, which is podcasting. So I had never — I mean, it didn’t exist, and then I started listening with Adam Curry on my iPod when it first started, and I was like, this is really cool. I wonder if this is gonna go anywhere. And now, flash forward twenty years later.
Kyle Olson
But I never had envisioned being a host or a personality or whatever. And it was just this gradual process of, well, I could probably do something like this. And then all these things kept coming along to say, well, I could do that, well, I could also do this. And then I made my own stupid little Marvel show that nobody would listen to, and then suddenly Andy and Pete, who are podcast people making money off podcasts, went, “you should come on and do stuff with us.” And it was just — I kept saying yes, but the whole time going, I’m not really good at this. I’m enthusiastic about the things I like, but I’m pretty much bad at all the rest of it.
Kyle Olson
But it just kept coming along. And so then when I finally got a chance to do my own show, then I got a chance to interview somebody who was accomplished and knew all these things. And I was like, oh, this has to be a thing where I have to know what I’m talking about because I don’t know how to interview. I’ve never taken any journalism classes. I don’t know anything about this, but I have to do my homework and show up. And in the process of doing that, they said, “wow, you know what? You’re really good at this.” And that was you, Mandy Fabian.
Ryan Dalton
Hey, this is based on a true story.
Kyle Olson
This is a true story and you were there. This was from when we did Curiosity Codex together. I was the whole time going, I am so out of my depth. I don’t know what I’m doing. And you said, “you know, you’re really good at this. You asked really good questions.” And you even said at one point, you would do really well in Hollywood because you are really good at asking people questions about themselves, and that’s what people in Hollywood like to answer.
Mandy Fabian
Yeah. And weren’t all of my episodes like three hours long? Because you said, “what are you up to?”
Pete Wright
And there were three hundred of them. And I listened to every one of them and they were all great. And that’s exactly it — that’s the unlock, the imposter syndrome issue. Because you could hear you, Kyle, get better with every one of those 300 episodes.
Mandy Fabian
Yeah, you’re so good.
Kyle Olson
Yeah, so you made me a better podcaster, Mandy.
Mandy Fabian
And you know, talk about fake it till you make it too, because during that process I remember being like, oh my god, why would anybody care about what I’ve been doing? I had to sort of pretend — in the beginning, honestly, I had to pretend like something that I had been through would be interesting to anyone, or that I was even qualified to talk about it. That was a real thing.
Kyle Olson
And we thought we were gonna cover the whole thing in three hour-long episodes. And it ended up being like forty, I think.
Mandy Fabian
I don’t think it was forty.
Kyle Olson
I think it was around thirty.
Mandy Fabian
Thirty-eight.
Kyle Olson
Yeah.
Pete Wright
Thirty-eight.
Mandy Fabian
No, it was really fun.
Kyle Olson
Thirty-eight. All right, thirty-eight.
Mandy Fabian
Yeah, that was also — so we had a double fake it till you make it, because I was also — and honestly, when you were talking about connecting with fans, I was listening to the episode from the last time that we all were together. And it was so interesting because I was like, wow, I got so thrown by the idea of fandom, because I instantly got that “I don’t have any fans, I don’t know about fans” feeling. It brought up such a fake it till you make it kind of thing. Because you haven’t unpacked it.
Mandy Fabian
I have just one last question, and then we can go to our sponsor. Or do we need — should we just go to our sponsor now and then go to one last question?
Pete Wright
Sure. Whatever you think. You’re the boss here.
Kyle Olson
Yeah, you’re running the show.
Mandy Fabian
I don’t remember how long these go.
Pete Wright
You’re the captain now.
Mandy Fabian
I know. The thing is I black out usually for about half of these. I can’t remember how long they’re supposed to be or what —
Pete Wright
Let’s just say we’re entering — we’re on approach.
Mandy Fabian
Okay, we’re on approach. Great. Well then I think we should go ahead and listen to the people who make this show possible, the ones signing our paychecks this week. And this is our summer home money sponsor, right?
Pete Wright
Right, Portugal money.
Kyle Olson
Portugal money.
Mandy Fabian
Good. Okay. Here we go.
[AD BREAK: THE LAST APPLE]
This episode is brought to you by The Last Apple. We’re different than other corporations you may have heard from on certain podcasts. Oh, it’s fun to hear about goods and services, but let’s be honest — you don’t really need more of those, do you? No. What you, the discerning and dutiful consumer, need is to be freed from the burden of ownership. That’s why we at The Last Apple buy everything and rent it back to you. Home goods, basic widgets, computing power, your favorite music, even other corporations and the goods and services they offer — we consume them all, and then return them to you at a reasonable, eternal monthly rate. Now, you may know of some resource or citrus-themed corporation we haven’t consumed on your behalf, and to that we say: give it time. They will be ours soon enough. And then, and only then, can they be yours as well. Yes, why weigh yourself down with the drudgery of ownership, with its endless upkeep and worries of loss — or worse, depreciation — when we can shoulder the burden for you? The Last Apple. Because someone has to own it all.
[END AD BREAK]
Pete Wright
I had no idea this episode was going to be brought to you by enshittification.
Kyle Olson
Wow. Shots fired. I think we’re at the ground zero between corporate warfare.
Ryan Dalton
I feel like The Other Orange has a nemesis out there.
Kyle Olson
Yeah.
Mandy Fabian
The Other Orange and The Last Apple. I guess I’m gonna have to do the Tired Banana for next time. I don’t even — that sounded dirtier than I meant it. That’s just how my brain works.
Mandy Fabian
Okay. That’s actually a good segue into my last question. There are different ideas in comedy about what kind of comedy you like. Like, “it’s funny because it’s true,” right? Or do you like observational stand-up comedy, or do you prefer the absurdness of Monty Python? Or how about a totally pointed satire? What rings your funny bones? Because I’m always wondering, what is funny? I know it has to be funny for you if you’re gonna make something funny, but where does truth in comedy play out? Is this a large question?
Pete Wright
I’ll go first. I generally think the raw nerve is tickled when it’s surprise plus recognition, right? Not just “I didn’t expect that,” but “I didn’t expect you to say or do the quiet part out loud.” That is generally funny to me — if it’s slightly wrong and also deeply accurate, whatever it is. Timing also critical. I think a mediocre joke with perfect timing beats a perfect joke with mediocre timing. So there’s the performative aspect of it.
Pete Wright
But I also think that I swing with the times. I want absurdism when the world feels too literal and hard. I want satire when someone powerful is getting away with nonsense. And I want character-driven heart when I need to remember that humans are complicated organisms instead of just annoying.
Pete Wright
And with that, I have to say, right now I am such a sucker for Shrinking. And I just watched the current episode last night as we record this. And my God, you guys, I was weeping with humor and joy and heart. It is just one of the best expressions of human sacredness and humility and humor that I know on television right now. It’s just fantastic. So that’s class A comedy for me right now.
Mandy Fabian
I love that. That’s great. I’ll go next. I’ll give you guys a little time to think. My girls and I stumbled upon — well, not stumbled upon — Will and Grace. I had never watched it. I think I was just busy and running around. And then by the time I was gonna get around to it, I think Grace was already married and I was like, that’s not fun. So I just never watched it.
Kyle Olson
There’s a theme developing.
Mandy Fabian
So I watched it with my girls just to be like, this is classic sitcom. Nobody writes a joke better than Max Mutchnick. And it’s actually a lot of insult humor, and there’s so many jokes you just could not get away with today. And I find myself being like, oh, but you can’t laugh at that — not now. I mean, you can in our living room, but you should never make that joke at school or whatever. But it’s just such goofy character-driven stuff that also has heart. And the timing, the rhythm, the preciseness of those jokes — they’re not all perfect, but I swear almost every episode you get one that you’re like, you just know that in the writer’s room they were like, “ah.” And usually I think those are the ones that really skewer character, nail something to the wall in terms of its truth, and then how they said it.
Kyle Olson
Yeah, and those kind of shows were great because you had developed the rhythm of it — that Grace would say something and the camera would just turn to Karen. And the audience is already laughing because it’s like, oh boy, here we go.
Pete Wright
Yeah.
Kyle Olson
There’s a laugh before it because, like, oh man, I don’t know what’s about to happen, but it’s gonna be good.
Pete Wright
Yeah, that’s one of the best parts — when timing is actually ahead of the joke. You trust the script, and you trust those people to deliver it right, so much that you’re willing to give of yourself to laugh before you even hear it. And I think Sean Hayes is one of the masters at that. And Megan Mullally is an absolute expert at that. And those two were truly the comic anchors on that show.
Mandy Fabian
Yeah. Their physical comedy too. So that has been totally tickling our funny bones these last couple weeks.
Ryan Dalton
Boy, yeah. I’ve been sitting here pondering because I just love comedy so much and so many different varieties. Sometimes it just depends on my mood. There’s some things I don’t respond to as much — the “I’m funny because I’m edgy” comedy does not do much for me. It has a real tryhard vibe to me that I don’t care for. And I feel like most of it’s fake.
Ryan Dalton
But aside from that, there’s a range of comedy that I love. I’m a huge old-school Monty Python fan. I like super dry British humor. In fact, I remember back in my old corporate days, I did not belong in that world at all. I was giving a PowerPoint presentation and I slipped in a couple of joke slides along the way. And they got — I mean, crickets is being generous on the response. And my boss afterwards, who was actually a cool guy, he said, “you know, your dry sense of humor doesn’t really land with everybody. Just so you know.” He wasn’t even downing on it. I think he was trying to make me feel better. And I was like, yeah, I was starting to see that.
Ryan Dalton
Then I was trying to think, okay, if I had to distill it down to what most consistently tickles me or makes me laugh — yeah, it’s really good rhythms in character-based dialogue, in interactions. And if it’s funny anyway, but it’s delivered — whether it’s on the page or on screen — with that rhythm that’s just so pleasing on an elemental level that you can’t even really describe, it’s just there. I love that.
Ryan Dalton
I have some little video clips bookmarked that I’ll go back to and watch. They’re ten, twenty seconds long. But the exchange is so perfect to me that I just love it. I’ll give you an obscure example. It was from the first episode of The Orville. So a guy is demonstrating to the captain and the first officer this beam — in reality, it’s a time acceleration beam. But to demonstrate, he puts a banana in the beam and turns it on, and in seconds the banana just rots and withers.
[CLIP: THE ORVILLE]
“So it’s an anti-banana ray.”
“It’s really interesting. We need no longer fear the banana.”
“Does it work on all fruit?”
“What about salads?”
“Do you understand what happened to this banana?”
“It’s rotten because a month has passed.”
“Since we got here?”
“Yeah, that’s what it feels like.”
[END CLIP]
Ryan Dalton
And it was just so snappy. The rhythm was just perfect. And I will sometimes go back to that and other little scenes like that, because not only is it funny, but it’s creatively pleasing and fulfilling to watch as well. So it’s probably what I respond to most consistently.
Kyle Olson
You saying that made me think of — I love the Zucker Brothers stuff. They would just have what would be a now a top-tier joke and they would just put it in the background. One of my favorite ones is they’re walking through a hospital and you hear the doctor standing over the patient. And these are not our main characters — the main characters are literally walking by this. And the doctor says —
[CLIP: THE NAKED GUN]
“Mrs. Nordberg, I think we can save your husband’s arm. Where would you like it sent?”
“Oh, Frank, I’m so glad you came.”
“Well, it’s good to see you.”
[END CLIP]
Kyle Olson
And the characters just start the scene. They just threw it away. I love that kind of stuff.
Kyle Olson
I am a big fan of stand-up comedy. And I know that’s general — “hey, I like things that are funny” — but there’s a lot of different styles. The shows — and just like Ryan was talking about — I don’t really like the ones who are just like, “yeah, you’re gonna hate me, but I love it.” You sort of have the guys like Patton Oswalt or whatever, who are just great. They can stand up at a mic and just make you laugh for an hour, because they have all this stuff in their head and they can just do it. And I love that.
Kyle Olson
But the next generation of comedians that are coming up are now doing really interesting things with technology and PowerPoints and dancers — and Bo Burnham, I think, is sort of the first person who did this, and now everybody’s starting to do it. But I’ve seen all these incredibly creative things where these comedians are like, “you’re paying attention, you’re listening, because I’m gonna say something and in 45 minutes the punchline’s gonna hit.” And they know that people, if you’re in it, you’re gonna get it. If not, they don’t care.
Kyle Olson
And they also are the YouTube generation — they’re not living in this Jack Benny “I’m gonna do it once and then that’s it.” The idea is there’s rewatchability to it.
Kyle Olson
The one that made me think of this — when Pete was talking — was because when we were on our boys’ trip last year, I said, “have you seen Rose Matafeo’s Horndog?” And he’s like, “no, I have not.” I’m like, “well then that’s what we’re gonna do for the next hour.” And we sat down and watched it. And it’s one of the best stand-up comedy things. I cannot even begin to tell you how that special ends. It’s unbelievable. The journey she goes on and then how she does her coda at the end — it’s amazing.
Kyle Olson
But the clip I’m gonna send — and it’ll be in the show notes — is by a guy named Kurt Braunohler, who’s sort of of the Patton Oswalt generation. In his last comedy special, he has a thing where he talks about a woman in Georgia whose house had 120,000 bees living in it. She had to call people out to deal with that. And he takes this true story and expands it out, and it’s like five minutes of material and it’s poetry. The way he does it, he just escalates and escalates and escalates. And I’ve watched that clip I can’t tell you how many times, and the words he chooses, the timing of it — it’s absolutely like spoken word poetry, Shakespeare level. And the audience is just absolutely roaring by the end of it. And even out of context of everything else, it’s this beautiful piece that is just so completely absurd and has something to say and is funny. Yeah, that kind of stuff is what really gets me going. When someone can take a simple concept and blow it up to those ridiculous heights, I’m all about it.
Ryan Dalton
I have a couple of fairly recent ones to recommend to you then if you’re into that.
Kyle Olson
Oh yeah, please.
Ryan Dalton
So there’s Alex Edelman. He did a special, I think it was a couple of years ago by now. But it’s one of the best I’ve seen in the last few years. Just not only incredibly witty, but his storytelling is super razor sharp. And he does sort of a thing that I feel like Mike Birbiglia was one who — I think it was the Birbiglia style, because I’ve been a fan of his for a long time.
Kyle Olson
Yeah, storytellers.
Ryan Dalton
Yes. One story that he goes multiple levels deep on, and there’s branching other things, but he always comes back to the one story. And the core story that he builds and branches off of is how he, as a Jewish man, attends a white supremacist meeting in New York. And it’s brilliant.
Ryan Dalton
And then the one I saw just recently — for anyone who’s a Dropout subscriber —
Kyle Olson
Oh, is it Demi Adejuyigbe?
Ryan Dalton
Yeah. It’s Demi Adejuyigbe Is Going to Do One Backflip.
Kyle Olson
Yes.
Ryan Dalton
And he’s one of those — I love it when a comic can just kind of pull you into a world that’s a little bit surreal. And he does that. He’s super witty and has some real moments but also some very silly moments. And it’s just really well done comedy and very sharply done. And that’s one that I’ve watched more than once, actually.
Pete Wright
I gotta throw in, since we’re talking about shows that do this — two more things, and then I’ll shut up, I promise.
Pete Wright
One: John Mulaney did a like eight or twelve episode talk show. It was a live Netflix thing and it was weekly. And it was funny because it was chaos. But one of the things that he started to tease early on is that in the last episode he was going to fight two teenage boys. And in the finale — you guys — John Mulaney fought two teenage boys, and they did it. It was fantastic.
Pete Wright
They also did a call to action in one of the episodes to get every height represented. And so they had people show up, from like five feet to six nine or something, and they ordered them so that he could say, “we got every height represented in a perfect line.” That was their big stunt. And it was so funny.
Pete Wright
But the last one — this is like Schadenfreude and joy at the same time. Bob Reese is a parkour athlete and stunt man, and he was on Ninja Warrior. He’s a Ninja Warrior pro. And he does a whole series of shorts on YouTube that are all around “AI videos are getting too good,” right? Where he will do some incredible thing and then cut to the AI model doing the same thing, but very much not. And it just lampoons how bad these AI models are at getting real human movement right.
Pete Wright
And it is — I cry at these things. What they do — once you see what a human can do and then immediately slam into the AI version of Bob Reese, who looks photorealistically like Bob Reese, bouncing off of walls — and the arms, the entire torso pivots 180 degrees and just goes through walls and lands face first in a cake. Why is a cake there? I don’t know. But the AI just decided a cake was needed. It is glorious. So I’ll put the link to that in the show notes. You will die. It is the best.
Mandy Fabian
Oh, this makes me very happy that we are leaving people with a lot of really great comedy gems that they can go scout out. I’m gonna go check that out. Did you say Bob Reese or Bob Ross, the painter?
Pete Wright
It would be better if it was Bob Ross AI doing parkour across the public broadcasting networks.
Mandy Fabian
Or the AI painter that can only do smiley faces.
Pete Wright
He can only do parkour smiley faces.
Mandy Fabian
Well, thank you all for taking this journey with me this week. And thank you to everybody who joined us and is listening. We really appreciate you being here and your time and attention for jumping up that creativity mountain with us. I’m still on the mountain metaphor, you know.
Kyle Olson
Twindy up here.
Ryan Dalton
Callback.
Mandy Fabian
I feel like we’ve really hit the peak and now we’re pitching a tent.
Kyle Olson
It’s all downhill from here.
Mandy Fabian
Oh yeah, that’s better. I thought I was gonna say something clever, but it didn’t happen. So thank you for having us. And you can also come talk to us at — what’s — craftandchaos.fun.
Pete Wright
It is craftandchaos.fun.
Mandy Fabian
Yes. Follow us and rate us and review us and do all those fun things.
Ryan Dalton
Send in questions.
Mandy Fabian
And send in questions. We love answering questions as well. And we will be back in two weeks. Go make weird art, right, Kyle?
Kyle Olson
That’s right.
Pete Wright
She stole it. She stole it right out from under him.
Kyle Olson
She stole the line! It’s so good. I have a catchphrase!
