Ryan Dalton:
I’d like to open this, Pete, if you could, with some easy listening lounge jazz music.
Pete Wright:
Oh, I got you.
Ryan Dalton:
Something that sounds a little period.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Ryan Dalton:
Okay.
Pete Wright:
You got it.
Kyle Olson:
Ooh, nice, smooth.
Ryan Dalton:
British accent incoming.
Pete Wright:
This one is a little bit of a—
Ryan Dalton:
Are you embarrassed easily? I am. But it’s nothing to worry about. It’s all part of growing up and being British. This course is designed to eliminate embarrassment, to talk freely about rude objects, and to look at awkward and embarrassing things. The method is the result of six years’ work here at the Institute, in which subjects were exposed to simulated embarrassment over a prolonged period of time.
Sorry. Intro music.
Welcome, fellow chaoticians, to Craft and Chaos. I am Ryan Dalton, here with Pete Wright and Kyle Olson. I will say Mandy is not here. She is currently running guns for the Yakuza. So we will see her next time.
Kyle Olson:
Oh, again?
Ryan Dalton:
Again. She can’t quit them.
Kyle Olson:
Man, I thought she was out, but I guess they pulled her back in. So tell the good people where that bit at the start came from, Ryan Dalton.
Ryan Dalton:
Yes, as you may have guessed from my British counterpart’s intro this week, we are talking about humor. Where does it come from? How do we create it? Does the humor we like to consume differ from the humor that we end up creating? And we’re going to shout out some of our favorite humor bits along the way just to illustrate the point.
First though, our opening segment has been hijacked by Kyle Olson, for which I will seek revenge at a time and place which he least suspects. However, until then, Kyle, what have you got for us?
Kyle Olson:
Well, it’s at the top of the show. It used to be that we would sort of be catching up and talking about things that were going on. We’ve had so much interesting stuff that we want to talk about that has sort of drifted into our first part here, and we’ve ended up having double or multiple main topics. So I’m going to bring it back old school and tell about an actual thing that happened. I think it will be interesting because the two of you know the beginnings of the story, but you don’t know the end of it, and our audience doesn’t know anything about this.
I wish it was — you know, David Sedaris where at the end there was a beautiful thing that brought it all together and we all just went, yeah, okay. But it won’t. The story will just end. It’s why it’s here at the top and not somewhere later on.
Pete Wright:
Nice setup, Kyle.
Ryan Dalton:
Maybe we could end it with the Seinfeld music, just like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
Kyle Olson:
Yeah. Exactly.
Ryan Dalton:
You don’t expect catharsis at the end of a Seinfeld episode.
Kyle Olson:
Yeah, exactly. Right. So it’s about the fact that you never really know what impact your work is going to have or where it will end up. So I got an email out of the blue from a retirement community in Pennsylvania that said, we found a bag with a laptop, some music, and a script in it. Do you know whose it is? The only information we can find in there is your name is on the script.
And of course, because I’m a professional, I actually put my email address on the front page of the script.
Pete Wright:
Which you rarely do.
Kyle Olson:
I rarely do.
Pete Wright:
I just want to make sure everybody knows. You’re really an antagonist to your own name.
Kyle Olson:
I have learned. And so that’s how I knew also that it was probably more recent.
Ryan Dalton:
You’ve been an enigma, but against your will, really.
Kyle Olson:
Yeah, exactly. I’m my own worst enemy.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Kyle Olson:
The odd part about it is I have no connection to these people. As I looked up to make sure this was legit — like if this is a phishing scam, it’s a really weird one. So I did my due diligence to make sure this is an actual place, a real person who worked there. And it was. So I went back and I said, yeah, I’d love to help you, except that I don’t know anyone there. I haven’t been to Pennsylvania in twelve or fifteen years, somewhere in there. I don’t have any contacts out there. I really have no idea how my thing got there. But I said I’m happy to help; I just don’t know how.
She came back and said, oh, that’d be great, we just wanted to get the person their stuff back. It was not mine. There’s no twist coming where there’s another me out there. One of me is more than enough.
Pete Wright:
That you left your briefcase in a retirement community fifteen years ago in Pennsylvania, that would be funny.
Kyle Olson:
Yeah, exactly. I feel like there’s a Stephen King novel with this, but this was not that.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Kyle Olson:
So she got back, and I said, just out of curiosity’s sake, what script was it? And she said, oh, it was — and then said the name of one of the ones that we had talked about here on the show, one of the ones that I did for the Phoenix Theater 24 Hour Play Festival earlier this year in January. So I was like, oh, weird, because that has such a small reach. I have stuff that’s out there that’s coming, but that one was made in 24 hours for those people and has never been seen again.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Kyle Olson:
That seriously narrows it down. And I was like, oh, it’s too bad you don’t know the name of the person. And she’s like, oh, we know the name of the person. I was like, what? She’s like, yeah, the computer—
Pete Wright:
Then why are they calling you?
Kyle Olson:
Right. The computer opened up. But the problem is it’s a super common name. And that’s all they had. So then she came back and said, oh, it’s John Smith — I don’t want to reveal the person because I don’t know what the circumstances of leaving their stuff behind was. But I was like, well, that severely narrows it down.
So then I went back to the Phoenix Theater 24-hour thing and found the master list that emailed all of the participants and found the guy. And connected him back to her, and his laptop and stuff has been returned. He has been reunited with his stuff.
Pete Wright:
That has to be enormously satisfying for this person.
Kyle Olson:
Yeah, exactly. For him, for her, and for me. I was just like, oh God, I really want this story to have an ending. I don’t want this thing to be out there of just—
Pete Wright:
Wow.
Kyle Olson:
We’ll never know. It’s why I have not contacted him to find out. I kind of want to do that just as the coda of, like, so what happened?
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Kyle Olson:
But I also am worried it’s going to be something not nice. So maybe better just let that rest.
Pete Wright:
Oh. I was going down the road of, like, there’s a Pennsylvania retirement community meet cute in your future. This is fodder for your next play.
Kyle Olson:
Could be.
Ryan Dalton:
Mm.
Kyle Olson:
Yeah. The other weirder part of it is I don’t know who this guy is, and he was not in my show. So for whatever reason, how do you have the script?
Pete Wright:
So why does he have your script?
Kyle Olson:
Why did he have the script? Why did he have it printed out?
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Kyle Olson:
And why did he bring it with him? So there are some lingering mysteries. But all in all, a happy ending to an odd situation. And this is the importance of putting your name on your stuff and a way to contact you online.
Pete Wright:
That is awesome. A lesson you can’t stop learning.
Kyle Olson:
That’s right.
Pete Wright:
That’s outstanding. Way to go.
Ryan Dalton:
Cool story.
Pete Wright:
Way to go, universe.
Kyle Olson:
Yeah, exactly.
Ryan Dalton:
Cool story, bro. No, that was fun.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, cool story, bro.
Ryan Dalton:
Thanks for sharing that. And keep us up to date if you get more information at some point.
Kyle Olson:
Yeah, right.
Ryan Dalton:
That’d be fun to find out.
Kyle Olson:
Exactly.
Ryan Dalton:
Well, while we’re on the subject of just current events, before we dive into our next segments — Pete, is there anything that you would like to share?
Pete Wright:
I — okay. No, I guess maybe, sure.
Ryan Dalton:
I put you on the spot, I know.
Kyle Olson:
Wow.
Pete Wright:
There were some headlights.
Kyle Olson:
Just teed you right up.
Ryan Dalton:
Would you like to edit out a pause so you can gather your thoughts?
Pete Wright:
I was a deer. No, this all stays in.
Kyle Olson:
Long pause and then no.
Pete Wright:
This is the chaos part.
Ryan Dalton:
This is the chaos, yeah.
Pete Wright:
I think about you every day, Ryan, because I’m really trying to become a stable, routinized writer. I’m writing every day. I’m really struggling right now with balancing multiple projects because I’ve built out this calendar that requires me to be working on two things for a release schedule. One is short, one is long. They’re both coming along, but they’re taking up a lot of rent in my brain, and figuring out how to find a filter so I don’t burn it out.
Kyle Olson:
Mm-hmm.
Pete Wright:
I worry that I’m burning maybe too brightly, and I don’t want to lose the spark altogether by trying to do too much. But I’m still very enthusiastic about it. I’m in this development edit process on the big one. And that is really satisfying because it’s nice to be reminded daily what works, what doesn’t, how pieces are coming together. I’m making a mess of things because I’m editing things that have real continuity implications that I know is going to make it harder for me over the next month. But I’m still very, very happy with it, and I’m on track for sort of July, August releases.
So far, that’s what I’m working on. It’s the follow-up to the book that just released, Lattice. I’ve got — I’m writing a caper. I’m very excited. This is just an experimental theater of Pete, seeing if I can write a satisfying caper.
Ryan Dalton:
Nice.
Pete Wright:
And the other one, the bigger piece, is my first YA adventure. That is coming along. I have twenty-six chapters for the finished story, and I’m through about chapter eighteen on the development edit. So far the people I have read it to and have been reading it are still asking for more. I cannot ask for more myself. So that’s where I am.
Ryan Dalton:
Awesome. Well, when you’re ready for beta readers for the whole thing, feel free to reach out if you would like.
Pete Wright:
Thank you.
Kyle Olson:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
And when you feel like telling me—
Kyle Olson:
Ryan would be happy to find some beta readers for you.
Pete Wright:
When you want to tell me how you juggle successfully doing the things that I’m struggling to do, I’m all ears.
Ryan Dalton:
Well, it’s always a rebalancing act. One of the ways I manage it is by working on things that are all at very different stages. That’s what helps me.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Ryan Dalton:
For instance, I just finished — I had mentioned before — first draft of my mystery thriller. I’m letting that—
Pete Wright:
That was the one where you killed a lot of people.
Ryan Dalton:
Yes. It’s funny you say that because my parents are usually my alpha reader.
Pete Wright:
Yep.
Ryan Dalton:
They usually read the first draft because they’re a good mix of — they’re pretty well read, and they’re a good mix of supportive but very honest. My mom is my mom, but she sometimes thinks because it’s me writing, it’ll hit her differently. And literally yesterday we were talking about that book because she had just finished it the day before. She said, I could tell you’ve grown over the years as a writer. Most of the time I forgot it was you who had written it.
Kyle Olson:
Oh.
Ryan Dalton:
But did you have to kill so many people? I was like, well, it is a murder mystery.
Kyle Olson:
They all deserve to die.
Pete Wright:
Somebody’s got to go.
Ryan Dalton:
So someone’s going to have to die at some point. So because that’s at the point that it’s at, I’m just letting it sit for a little bit. I already have notes on what I’m going to do for draft three because I already did sort of a cleanup draft two.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Ryan Dalton:
I already know basically what draft three is going to look like. After draft three, that’s when I’ll send it out to betas and stuff. But while that’s sitting, I’m doing two things.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Ryan Dalton:
I am almost done outlining book three of the Black Cape Saga. So it’s been exciting to go back to that.
Pete Wright:
Oh, good.
Ryan Dalton:
I’m very near to where I will sit and write that, and I’ll end up drafting that fairly quickly, actually. I also had a conversation recently with my agent where we talked about next projects and next steps. So she knows she’s going to get this thriller, which we’ll figure out what to do with. But then we wanted to pick the next thing. And so we picked the next thing. It was a three-sentence idea that I had, that I just liked the idea of, but honestly never thought she would go for it. So I didn’t spend any time really developing it beyond just one sentence of the concept and another to give the mood.
When I described it a little bit to her, she said, man, if you can deliver on that thing that you just described, I think we could do something with it. So I am now diving into that and doing — it’s a genre I haven’t — I have dabbled in before, but never done fully. I’m starting concept work and world building and all that stuff for that, literally building that universe up from scratch, which is fun to be back in builder mode in a brand new story.
So all three of those things are completely different stages, which is how I can keep them in their own boxes. And because I’m not committed to a specific date to any of them yet — there are no due dates yet, it’s just me working on them — as the inspiration and energy for one rises and the others falls, I can give the attention to what needs attention on a particular day or particular moment. Now that will get more stringent as I get towards release dates and deadlines and things. But for now, I’m just kind of in that out-to-sea period where I’m just working on everything.
Pete Wright:
Mira—
Ryan Dalton:
It’s a lot of energy to direct and manage, and a lot of times and schedules, but I’m enjoying all three of them. So it’s just a good time.
Pete Wright:
One of the things I find I am struggling with, and I’m calling myself out on, is I’ll spend some time writing new material in one piece, and I’ll go back and forget that I’ve fallen in love with a turn of phrase, and I’ll end up using it in the other piece. And I find that voices start infecting one another, even though they’re very different projects. I’m having to give notes to my family as they’re reading it, saying, call me out when things feel artificially familiar, because I’m infecting myself with my own love of certain tropes of language.
I — that’s obviously not a “help me fix that” kind of an observation. It’s more of, I am a little bit self-aware when I come off the rails.
Ryan Dalton:
Yeah, it’s good to be self-aware.
Pete Wright:
That’s just the thing I’m noticing right now. This character would not say that. He’s only saying that because she said it over here, and you were really proud of yourself in that other book.
Ryan Dalton:
Right. I have had — and I’m sure we’ve all got little crutch words and other things, things we phrase that we like. We may not even realize it. I remember I had one word that my mom — at one book, not this one, but a little ways back — she’s like, you must like that word. You used it in two or three books.
Pete Wright:
Oh man, this weighs so heavy on me.
Ryan Dalton:
I can’t use that anymore.
Kyle Olson:
Uh-huh.
Pete Wright:
Oh my God.
Kyle Olson:
It’s that How I Met Your Mother glass-shattering thing.
Ryan Dalton:
And she was right.
Pete Wright:
Yep.
Ryan Dalton:
The glass shattered.
Kyle Olson:
I just found one of mine too.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Kyle Olson:
I went back to earlier stuff and did a search and I was like, oh no.
Ryan Dalton:
Well, I’ll tell you a horrifying experience that I do with all the books, but it hurts in the moment. Take the finished manuscript or a draft of it and upload it to essentially find your most used words, and find that your favorite word—
Kyle Olson:
A word cloud it. Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Oh my God, you do that?
Kyle Olson:
Oh yeah.
Ryan Dalton:
Yeah, I do. Because literally there have been times where, oh, you used that word 98 times in this book. And I was like, oh, that can’t happen. So I’d go back and look at every time.
Pete Wright:
Oh god. Wait, I need a practical tutorial right now. How do you do that? What do you use?
Ryan Dalton:
There’s literally a text editor I upload it to, and I just say, hey, for, you know, show me most commonly used words and how many times I used them.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Ryan Dalton:
It will give me a list of, like, top 50 words, and it’ll rank them from most used to least used on that list.
Pete Wright:
And you just do a find and replace and start editing.
Ryan Dalton:
Well, I look through every single one of them and I ask myself, do I really need that word there, or can I use something else?
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Ryan Dalton:
I usually end up getting rid of about half of them. Insane things are different.
Kyle Olson:
You can also do a word cloud, where you upload it the same kind of thing. It puts out all the words, and then by size in the cloud will be how many times it has been used.
Pete Wright:
Man. Yeah.
Kyle Olson:
You actually can literally see, like, the biggest word is — oh, maybe that’s — but if they’re all sort of an equal thing, like, okay, that’s a nice balance.
Ryan Dalton:
Mm-hmm.
Pete Wright:
Okay. New thing Pete learned today. Word cloud his work. I can already tell you the biggest. I’m going to go ahead and out myself: specific.
Kyle Olson:
Oh.
Pete Wright:
I’m already noticing in chapter eighteen that I am calling it out as I’m reading it. I’m like, oh. I’ve used that word a lot.
Kyle Olson:
The word “specific”? Okay.
Pete Wright:
“Specific” is giant. The word “specific,” Kyle. The specific word “specific.”
Kyle Olson:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
The specific word “specifically specific.”
Kyle Olson:
For me, it’s “just.”
Pete Wright:
It’s the worst.
Kyle Olson:
I use the word “just.” I mean — can we just — how about “what you just” — and I looked it up, and that’s what I found. There’s other writers who go on there. They were like—
Ryan Dalton:
Yeah, that’s an easy one.
Pete Wright:
Yep.
Kyle Olson:
“I can’t stop using the word ‘just.'” I’m like, oh, it’s not just me. But now I’m super aware of it every time I do it.
Ryan Dalton:
No, that’s a very common one.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, it’s just you.
Kyle Olson:
And I was like, oh.
Ryan Dalton:
I don’t want to say what mine are because there may be readers that listen to this, and I don’t want it to jump out every time they read that word and they’re like, you shouldn’t use that.
Pete Wright:
Wow.
Kyle Olson:
Uh-huh.
Pete Wright:
I didn’t realize how liberating it is not to have readers listening to me out myself yet. That’s awesome. That’s really perfect.
Ryan Dalton:
But I’ll spoil your future, Pete — if you keep doing this, you will also start noticing that with other people in the way they speak as well.
Kyle Olson:
Mm-hmm.
Ryan Dalton:
The veil will part and you’ll see the code behind how they say things and why and all that.
Pete Wright:
Oh my god. I feel like you guys are cursing me today. This is a hex.
Kyle Olson:
Honestly, there is a part of being a writer that is that.
Pete Wright:
That’s what we’re doing.
Ryan Dalton:
It’s like any filmmaker — I’ve heard them say it’s hard for them to watch movies because they see the Matrix code behind everything. They see a really cool shot and can’t help thinking, oh, I bet they used this to do that.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Kyle Olson:
Yes.
Ryan Dalton:
I have told people, the thing about knowing the craft is that, yeah, it does make it so there are probably fewer things you can enjoy.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Ryan Dalton:
However, the things that you enjoy, you can enjoy more. So there’s a cost, but there’s also a really cool upside.
Pete Wright:
Mm-hmm. That’s awesome.
Ryan Dalton:
Yeah. Okay, well, good catch-up. Would we like to do our first ad before we dive into the next segment?
[Ad break]
Hey humans, it’s me, a bear. We’re getting to the season where your kind are going to go tromping around in the woods. Eventually, you’ll meet up with our kind. I wanted to remind you of the rules. If it’s brown, lay down. If it’s black, fight back. If it’s white, say good night. Got it? Good. Stay safer. Stay home.
Kyle Olson:
Okay.
Ryan Dalton:
I have a fourth one that I always use.
Pete Wright:
I legit did not know those things.
Kyle Olson:
You did not know those rules.
Pete Wright:
No.
Kyle Olson:
Okay.
Ryan Dalton:
“If it’s bear, use a bazooka.” No, the message is really clear.
Kyle Olson:
The rhyme doesn’t quite work, but I like the sentiment.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, I do too.
Ryan Dalton:
Okay, well, now we’re going to go to our main event. So I spoke before on a recent podcast about how I realized something about myself: that no matter what I’m writing, whether it’s time travel sci-fi or murder mystery, I can’t not write humor and quirky characters in between the serious stuff. It just springs out of me. And while it’s happening, I’m having so much fun with it. I typically don’t want to steer away from it unless the scene specifically requires no humor to work.
I’ve also, as the more I’ve done this, come to realize that the humor that I create tends to be a much different flavor than the humor that I enjoy consuming. I’m sure that all feeds into the machine that ends up spitting out my humor, because everyone’s got unwitting influences. But it just feels, at least to me, looking at my own stuff versus what I like — it feels different.
For instance, from the opener, you may have guessed that I am a Monty Python fan. I have been ever since I was a weird little kid. I mean, like eight and ten and preteen years, to where even the rest of my family was like, what are you watching? But then as the years go by, I only appreciate it more. But it’s also a very different brand of humor than what comes out of me.
So I do — and I’ll save it for the end of this segment — have a snippet that I was hoping we could do a little live read of, of a piece from one of my Black Cape books, just to show a little bit of my weird, silly humor. But before I jump into that, I was wanting to just hear from you guys: what tends to attract you as far as humor you consume? Do you feel like it’s different than any humor that you might write, or is it the same? What’s your experience with it?
Pete Wright:
I feel like I need to go back to the formative years, like when you talk about your love of Monty Python. That was me with The Young Ones when I discovered The Young Ones.
Kyle Olson:
Sí.
Pete Wright:
It was absurd. I could still quote massive sections of it. I am sent into convulsive spasms of joy when I watch The Young Ones to this day. It is my first exposure to the kind of comedy that I think I’m sort of terrified of trying to duplicate, because it is so absurd and funny — the stuff they do with the Grim Reaper and giant sandwiches falling on them. God, when he comes back and he sees — he says, “yeah, you know” — that kind of humor.
I will never be able to create that, because my brain just doesn’t work that way on its own. I want to very badly, but I’ve never been able to.
I think, you know, you look at the guys like The Lonely Island, or — they are able to see around particular corners of humor that I just get to enjoy. I’ve never understood how The Hangover — it affects me so, the movie. I loved that movie irrationally. It just tickled me to no end.
Those are the kinds of things I find I am most moved to comedy by — comedy when it is in that very, very broad — and I don’t create it. The second I sit down at a keyboard to write something, that is not where my instinct goes. Maybe I’m intimidated by it. I don’t know why that is.
I think some of the stuff that I write can be funny. I have witty turns of phrase. I can generate some wit in my characters. I have been known from time to time to imbue them with a joke or two. But I don’t think I’m really great at writing — at creating broad — which is the stuff I love the most.
Kyle Olson:
I don’t think so.
Ryan Dalton:
There we go.
Kyle Olson:
Continuing on the influence of British comedy: I plus-one both of those. I will also add to that Mr. Bean, because one of the things that I really enjoy is physical comedy. I like when people can, without a word, do that. Of course, Mr. Bean — well established. We don’t need to spend any time on that. He’s doing fine. His stuff is perennial.
But going back to Buster Keaton, his premise is the audience loves a slow learner. So I love the idea of him going and doing the same thing over and over again, and we’re already ahead of it, but they don’t get it. That stuff is fantastic.
There’s also — I don’t think there’s much of it online or anything, because it just happened that I knew people. There was a guy named — let’s see — Ithamar Enriquez, and he has a one-man show called Ithamar Has Nothing to Say. He came to Phoenix because he knows some of the people in the improv community. It’s 45 minutes. It’s him on stage alone. He never says a word. It’s one of the funniest things I’ve ever seen in my life.
It’s just several different comedic situations that he puts himself in. Literally just him and a coat rack and a chair and a table and that’s it. I was the loudest person in that room. I dropped my daughter — and she’s like, so you really like that, huh? I’m like, you don’t understand, this is exactly — like he might have made this just for me.
It’s a show he does around. I hope at some point it gets put on some sort of media. If you look him up, he’s done a bunch of stuff. He’s been in the Marvel and Sonic universe. He’s done a bunch of television. But it’s a very rare thing that someone can actually do that. A Harold Lloyd thing — that physical thing. John Ritter used to be able to do this kind of stuff. Just them alone on stage, trying to accomplish something. Jim Carrey has this. Just that thing where they could walk into a room funny.
My God, how do you write that?
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Kyle Olson:
How do you set up those situations where people can do it? But man, that stuff always just blows me away — that somehow they have the presence, they have the understanding. Dick Van Dyke. These names keep popping up, but people who can do this — there’s the number of them is so small.
I don’t know how to write that. So as a pivot to what I get: I find that when I try to do that stuff, I can’t always get the actors to do what it is that I’m portraying. A lot of times my stuff is very wordy because I like wordplay, I like conversation, I like bouncing back and forth. I’m trying to put more stuff in there as — and hopefully my talent for writing situations or descriptions, like we talked about with Jen Silverman, is to put more of the intent of “here’s what you’re trying to do as you’re carrying this tray across the stage” as opposed to “you carry the tray across, it falls.”
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Kyle Olson:
Like, everything rides on this moment and you’re going to blow it. Those kinds of things. It’s so rare to find somebody who can do it.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Kyle Olson:
It’s tough, but those are the things that I always go back to because they live forever. You can watch any of these things and it’s not dated by time. I’m starting to show some comedies this summer to some of our college interns or student workers, and I’m looking back at stuff and going, well, those haven’t aged well. I don’t want to have a 15-minute preface before I sit down and show a comedy to them during our idle times.
So to go back to some of these things that are just funny situations without having to know the cultural context or to apologize for a different time — that stuff.
Ryan Dalton:
That makes me think of Conan O’Brien, who very specifically and purposefully often doesn’t talk about anything about current events, because he wants the comedy to feel timeless.
Kyle Olson:
Yeah.
Ryan Dalton:
And to be not so firmly rooted in one moment that it can’t age well.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Ryan Dalton:
I’m a huge fan of his, too, and I always respect that approach. He just wants pure comedy. He has no desire to comment on current events.
Pete Wright:
There is a certain amount of — I think you bring up Conan O’Brien. I’ve always been a fan of Conan O’Brien. And I think he has achieved a new height with Conan O’Brien Needs a Friend.
Ryan Dalton:
Mm-hmm.
Pete Wright:
It’s almost his natural habitat, because of the nature of — I think both allowing us to see a side of him that’s funny, human, and vulnerable, and also how he uses humor to diffuse, defend, deflect, in a way that he makes it look like one of the most natural things that one could do. He makes just being a funny human being look super easy.
Ryan Dalton:
Oh man, yeah. Every other celebrity that has interacted with him — they’re like, with a lot of comedians, that’s a stage persona. With Conan, that’s him. That is literally who he is.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, it’s all you get.
Ryan Dalton:
What you’re seeing there is Conan.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Ryan Dalton:
I admire him a lot. I do think that he thrives — I think he enjoys it when he doesn’t know what’s going to happen next. The most fun I ever saw him have on one of his shows, it was when he was doing the second show, the TBS show.
Pete Wright:
Yes.
Kyle Olson:
Mm-hmm.
Ryan Dalton:
At the last minute, like minutes before they had to record—
Kyle Olson:
Technically that’d be his third show, but yeah, go on.
Ryan Dalton:
Oh, right, yeah. Revoke my comedy nerd credentials.
Kyle Olson:
I mean, you know, just the Tonight Show, but that’s fine.
Pete Wright:
For sure, yeah.
Ryan Dalton:
Probation.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Ryan Dalton:
So minutes before they were supposed to record, it was Kumail Nanjiani who was supposed to be on there, but he was filming Silicon Valley at the time. The schedule changed and he very suddenly couldn’t be there. They had no planned guest, so Conan brought out Sona, his assistant, and they just—
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Ryan Dalton:
—did whatever for half of the show that Kumail was supposed to have been there. You could see in Conan, he was so excited and just having the best time.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Ryan Dalton:
Because it was completely off the cuff. I think he was really in his element there.
Kyle Olson:
I’m suppressing my urge to talk about the late night thing, because this is a passion thing of mine, but — the episodes of Late Night with Conan O’Brien during the strike, where they weren’t allowed to write anything, were some of the best episodes he ever did. Because he literally had an hour to fill and no celebrities with which to chat.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Kyle Olson:
And they couldn’t write anything. Legally, he could not put anything down. So he had to come up with bits like spinning his ring or playing with the audience or all these things. And this is network — like, elders, it’s millions of dollars, and we’re watching him spin his wedding ring on his desk.
I was like, this is so audacious and brilliant and the stupidest idea ever. But my God, I still remember that after all these years. Creativity right on display of: you’ve got to perform, so perform.
Pete Wright:
There is a special talent to crowd work — to being able, like you said, to perform improvisationally, that is really special for some of these folks. My YouTube algorithm is really loving crowd work comics right now. So you see people who are able to engage that part, that spark of — the thing that allows them to work collaboratively with people who are not there to work collaboratively with you.
Kyle Olson:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
That is a delightful, delightful gift.
Kyle Olson:
Sarah Millican’s latest special has a whole section where she’s just talking to the crowd, and she’s so fast. I can’t wrap my head around it.
Ryan Dalton:
She’s amazing at crowd work.
Kyle Olson:
Someone will say something and she immediately has a funny line to follow it up. It’s just wild.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Ryan Dalton:
She’s incredibly skilled.
Kyle Olson:
And then it goes right back into her material.
Ryan Dalton:
The best thing about her, really, is that she has such a sweet voice.
Kyle Olson:
Uh-huh.
Ryan Dalton:
And the things she says are so sharp and witty and brilliantly funny. She’s awesome.
Kyle Olson:
Before we move too far away from Conan — there was a bit that I saw somebody had put together a compilation of their favorite moments. There was a bit they were doing — Matt Gourley, who’s also one of my comedy heroes. He’s fantastic at all the Star Wars live reads.
Ryan Dalton:
Mm-hmm. Amazing improv.
Kyle Olson:
What a great partner. The two of them together.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Kyle Olson:
There was a bit where Matt just kept going on this ridiculous, horrible tangent, and so Conan pulls out his phone and pretends he’s reading a review of the episode they’re recording. Gourley continued on this bit even though no one had — he just kept and kept, and Conan was scrolling, scrolling, and someone was laughing because he’s pretending to scroll. We know you’re not reading this. He’s like, hold on. He’s like, wait, there’s an ad. All right. And then he continues on.
Pete Wright:
It goes on.
Kyle Olson:
He just continues on with the review of the episode that they’re currently in. At the end of it, the reviewer had killed himself. So then he does the notice of having realized that he could never experience joy again after having to review this episode. It’s just — and he just committed to the bit so hard, and they were just laughing and laughing and laughing. It’s meta on top of meta on top of meta.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Kyle Olson:
Brilliant.
Ryan Dalton:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
I think Conan is one of those guys that I can see a path to how someone is able to build a set of skills that allows them to truck with Conan — like to become Matt or Sona, who are just naturally very funny people who have worked very hard as students of the comedic arts to be able to truck with Conan, who is preternaturally good at it.
Ryan Dalton:
Mm-hmm.
Pete Wright:
The other kind of comedian is someone who’s not a comedian at all, but who just exudes a certain realness to them, a certain humor that comes just from being able to say the quiet part out loud, for lack of a better trope — to speak truth to cultural power. And I’m talking, of course, about Harrison Ford.
I can’t count the number of supercuts on YouTube of Harrison Ford being Harrison Ford for like 15 straight minutes. But he is a guy who has captured — and I don’t think it’s craft or art on his part. I just think he is unafraid to say whatever it is. When you talk about Conan O’Brien, you have to watch the interactions of Harrison Ford on Conan’s show over the years, because those two together—
Kyle Olson:
Sí, sí.
Ryan Dalton:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
—are fireworks. It’s absolutely extraordinary. I don’t know if Harrison Ford knows he’s funny. I legitimately don’t know all the time if he knows he’s funny. But there are things that he gets away with that feel so audacious to me. That is a thing that makes me a little bit creatively jealous. I’m like, ugh. How did he get there with that retort, that observation? That is something I, as a creator, think about in terms of how to get better at what I do.
Kyle Olson:
Mm-hmm. Talking about Harrison Ford and his recent scene partner, Jason Segel — he was on an episode of Good One recently. It was really interesting to hear him talk about his career at a distance, in a way I had never really heard any sort of comedian talk about — like him knowing how he was perceived. Him saying that after he got his success on Freaks and Geeks and then moving over into Forgetting Sarah Marshall, he saw how people saw him and was able to write for it.
I had never really heard a comedian — not comedian comedian, but a comic performer — talking about, oh, I can get away with this because the audience will like me up until I say this thing, and then I can’t say that. He understood the persona of what people expect from a Jason Segel performance enough.
I was like, wow, I’m not that insightful about any part of my life.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Kyle Olson:
He was able to see the Jason Segel character as opposed to the actual performer inside, and what he could do on a stage in a movie, what he could get away with. I was like, wow.
Pete Wright:
That’s how Bruce Wayne thinks about Batman.
Kyle Olson:
Right.
Ryan Dalton:
Yeah.
Kyle Olson:
But now he and Harrison Ford together have that thing.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Ryan Dalton:
Jason Segel talked about — the breakup scene from Forgetting Sarah Marshall came from a real-life breakup that he had. It struck me when he told this story, because he talked about this breakup happening — he was naked or semi-naked at the time when the girl dumped him. He said right afterwards — I think this was a fairly long-term relationship — he was devastated. But even in that moment, he said, I have to sit down. I have to start writing this down because it’s going to be gold later on.
Pete Wright:
Oh wow.
Ryan Dalton:
It struck me because I was like, oh man, I did that. I’ve done — and not for comedic scenes, but I’ve done that at emotional points, saying I need to record this right now, how it is, so that I can put this in something. I was like, oh wow. Hey, he does a different thing than I do, but the process is similar.
Kyle Olson:
Mm-hmm.
Ryan Dalton:
It was cool.
Pete Wright:
The service of using humor to build that sort of humanity, I think, is another thing that builds the parasocial relationship between audience and humorist. I went to see Mae Martin a couple of weeks ago, who is extraordinary and a real naturalist when it comes to—
Kyle Olson:
Oh, nice.
Pete Wright:
—observational humor. The bits were funny. They also did an entire segment of just two-hander improv based on audience prompts, and then brought out a guitar and played a number of songs that were extraordinary. In the process of this show, one of their jokes actually was a story about how their fiancé broke up with them. I’m sitting there with my daughter, and we had not heard that news, and we were bereft for the next ten minutes, because we were like, how dare — how dare someone break up with Mae Martin?
Ryan Dalton:
Oh wow.
Pete Wright:
The nerve, the inhumanity that it takes to break up with Mae Martin.
Kyle Olson:
Yeah. I just watched the—
Pete Wright:
We were ready to go out and start soliciting people who would date Mae Martin.
Kyle Olson:
I just watched the Tig Notaro documentary, Tig — I think it’s just called Tig.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Kyle Olson:
Somehow I had missed it.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Kyle Olson:
When I bounce insomnia, I was up watching, and that same thing of, in the darkest of her times, someone breaks up with her. Her mother — she has, you know—
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Kyle Olson:
—had just gotten over C. diff, her mother had died, she’d gotten cancer. And they’re like, yeah, this is the time I’m going to break up. I’m like, what kind of — but that gets the art of the thing of, like, what kind of monster is that?
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Animal.
Kyle Olson:
But also then, what kind of monster would you be if you stayed?
Ryan Dalton:
That’s the thing, there’s no good time to break up with somebody.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Right.
Kyle Olson:
I’m like, ooh, right there, there’s drama.
Pete Wright:
No.
Kyle Olson:
Like there’s where the writing’s gold.
Pete Wright:
You look at what they’re able to do, to turn that into a kind of relational comedy that makes us buy in so much to the bit in the show, that makes it transformational.
Ryan Dalton:
Oh yeah.
Kyle Olson:
Mm-hmm, yeah.
Pete Wright:
I think that’s an extraordinary skill too.
Ryan Dalton:
Absolutely. Yeah. Cool. Nice deep dive, guys.
Kyle Olson:
Mm-hmm.
Ryan Dalton:
I wanted to do something at the end here just to illustrate what I was talking about at the start of, like, the humor we like and consume may be different than the humor that comes out of us. So just think about that little snippet I did from Monty Python at the start, and like, that tone, and how that is.
Kyle Olson:
Yeah.
Ryan Dalton:
Everyone knows how Monty Python comes across, which is what I like to consume. And like even the Conan O’Brien type, which I like equally as much. And then contrast that with this little scene snippet from one of my books.
If you guys check your email inboxes, there’s a little tiny script in there. So, Kyle, if you could be the action narrator.
Kyle Olson:
Absolutely.
Ryan Dalton:
Pete, if you could play Zoe. And I will play Jim. Scene setup: this is, you know, in a superhero book. There’s just been a big fight between the main character, Jim, and a hero named Geometron. Also, yeah, that in itself is a little silly.
Pete Wright:
That’s amazing, yeah.
Ryan Dalton:
You’re already learning the tone of these books. Also, Jim had grabbed onto this kind of death machine to disarm it, and it worked, but hurt a lot. This is the aftermath of fighting Geometron and disarming this death machine. So, you want to kick us off there, Kyle?
Kyle Olson:
Absolutely. Cue the Germanic music. Zoe stared down at Jim.
Pete Wright:
You literally hugged a death trap. Even for you, that was pretty dumb.
Kyle Olson:
Lying on his back, Jim blinked hard. His vision had gone all wonky, like he was seeing the world through a funhouse mirror.
Ryan Dalton:
Hey, how am I supposed to know something’s dangerous unless I hug it?
Kyle Olson:
He tapped his chin in thought.
Ryan Dalton:
Maybe that’s why I keep getting bitten by stray dogs and cats and hobos.
Kyle Olson:
Zoe tapped a button and her mask folded away. Her voice softened.
Pete Wright:
That was a brave thing you did. Some might even call it heroic.
Kyle Olson:
From his prone position, Jim reached out and poked her ankle.
Ryan Dalton:
You take that back. If I could move, those would be fighting words.
Pete Wright:
I’m more dangerous than I look.
Ryan Dalton:
Well, how would I know when we haven’t hugged?
Kyle Olson:
Shaking her head, Zoe helped him to his feet.
Pete Wright:
Maybe we’ll get to that later.
Ryan Dalton:
Is that flirting? I mean, be careful with me. I’ve been hurt before.
Kyle Olson:
Jim pointed at Geometron, who lay still.
Ryan Dalton:
Literally, by her, just now, and—
Kyle Olson:
And seen.
Pete Wright:
Geometron.
Ryan Dalton:
So clearly that is different than Monty Python and clearly it is different than Conan O’Brien. It’s just what churns out of the machine in my head, that likes what it likes, but also makes what it makes. So I just thought it’d be an interesting contrast.
Pete Wright:
Is that—
Ryan Dalton:
Okay, I think we’re ready for our next ad break.
[Ad break]
Hey, I’m back. There’s something I forgot. What I do in the woods is none of your business. If you need me, I’ll be in my den.
Kyle Olson:
All right.
Ryan Dalton:
Short and sweet.
Pete Wright:
That’s a safe reminder.
Kyle Olson:
Yeah, exactly.
Pete Wright:
That is a good one.
Kyle Olson:
Be aware of bear. Because they’re aware of you.
Ryan Dalton:
Well, in the spirit of this episode, I wanted to end on something fun. So guys, the time has arrived for Romance Novel or Death Metal Band, Part Two. As before, I will read each one of these in a smoky, sultry voice. And you will take turns guessing whether it’s the title of a romance novel or the name of a death metal band.
Pete Wright:
This is such a hard game. This is a ridiculously hard game.
Kyle Olson:
Pete will go first.
Pete Wright:
Oh god.
Ryan Dalton:
Nice. You’re up, Pete. Okay.
Pete Wright:
All right.
Ryan Dalton:
I would start you out with a banger. Unicorn Horn of Desire.
Kyle Olson:
Oh, I like the rhyme, the internal rhyme there. That’s really good.
Pete Wright:
I know, right? Unicorn Horn of Desire.
Kyle Olson:
Talk through your thoughts. What are these guys like?
Ryan Dalton:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Well, I—
Kyle Olson:
What are they like?
Pete Wright:
I think a death metal band — I don’t think a death metal band would land on anything with “unicorn.”
Ryan Dalton:
Imagine I’m not comprehending—
Pete Wright:
I just feel like the first word screams to me romance novel.
Ryan Dalton:
Is that your final answer?
Pete Wright:
That is my final answer.
Ryan Dalton:
You are correct. It is a romance novel.
Kyle Olson:
Wow.
Pete Wright:
There we go.
Ryan Dalton:
Pete, that may be your first point in this game. I don’t think you got any right the last time.
Pete Wright:
Oh no! Man, I didn’t know you were keeping score across sessions!
Kyle Olson:
You’re on the board.
Pete Wright:
Okay, I’m on the board.
Ryan Dalton:
All right, Kyle. Dark Tranquility.
Kyle Olson:
Dark Tranquility? Wow. I mean, it’s an easy layup for a romance novel. But I think what would the band be? Would they all be in gothic lace and stuff? I can’t see, like, guys wearing, like, Nirvana T-shirts and cutoff shorts rocking out. Yeah, I think I’m going to stick with my first thought, best thought. I’m going to say that is a romance novel.
Ryan Dalton:
It’s a death metal band.
Kyle Olson:
Is it really?
Pete Wright:
Oh wow.
Ryan Dalton:
Yep.
Kyle Olson:
Wow.
Ryan Dalton:
Okay, Pete. Fragments of Unbecoming.
Pete Wright:
Okay. I probably would have said it’s a romance novel until Dark Tranquility was a death metal band. I feel like my world is upside down. I think I’m going to say — say it again?
Ryan Dalton:
Fragments of Unbecoming. I have to read it that way.
Pete Wright:
Okay. I love how your announcer cannot break character, but only when reading the title.
Kyle Olson:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
That is a skill.
Kyle Olson:
Well, yeah. I guess in your head you have to go, like, on the main stage.
Pete Wright:
I kind of do. Fragments of Unbecoming.
Ryan Dalton:
Yeah.
Kyle Olson:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
I’m changing my mind. Romance novel. Romance novel, final answer.
Ryan Dalton:
Pete, it’s a death metal band.
Kyle Olson:
Yeah, I was going to say that sounded like that to me.
Pete Wright:
Oh my god!
Ryan Dalton:
All right, Kyle. P.S. I Loathe You.
Kyle Olson:
P.S. I Loathe You? Oh god, that’s so good. Oh man. I don’t think any death metal band would want to have, like, you know, Metallica — guh — P.S. I Love You. So I’m going to say romance novel.
Ryan Dalton:
It’s a romance novel.
Kyle Olson:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Oh, thank God.
Ryan Dalton:
Well done. Okay. Pete.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Ryan Dalton:
The Vampire’s Captive.
Kyle Olson:
Oh whoa, man, I could go either way.
Pete Wright:
Okay, all right.
Kyle Olson:
I guess the question is, Pete — are they a willing captive or an unwilling captive?
Pete Wright:
I mean, is this like an Anne Ricey kind of thing?
Kyle Olson:
Right.
Pete Wright:
But isn’t there a metal band surrounding Anne Rice’s material?
Kyle Olson:
Yeah, probably.
Pete Wright:
This is a snake eating its tail, is what this is.
Kyle Olson:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
All right, question. Is “Vampire’s” spelled with an I or a Y?
Kyle Olson:
Oh. There we go. Okay. Traditional.
Pete Wright:
Romance novel.
Ryan Dalton:
Final answer?
Pete Wright:
Final answer.
Ryan Dalton:
Correct, Pete.
Kyle Olson:
Oh, nice.
Ryan Dalton:
It is a romance novel.
Pete Wright:
Let me just tell you. That whole I/Y question, that was a ruse. That had nothing to do with any of my thinking.
Kyle Olson:
You’re just giving yourself time to think, is that what it is?
Pete Wright:
Could have gone either way.
Ryan Dalton:
Buy time.
Pete Wright:
I just needed a break to pull my actual hair out for just a minute and act in confidence.
Ryan Dalton:
Okay, Kyle.
Kyle Olson:
Okay, ready.
Ryan Dalton:
Howlers in Heat.
Kyle Olson:
Howlers in Heat.
Pete Wright:
If that’s not a death metal band, we’re in trouble.
Kyle Olson:
Yeah, I can think of what that book would be, but I don’t think that’s what it is. I think that is a death metal band.
Ryan Dalton:
It’s a romance novel.
Kyle Olson:
Whoa, really?
Pete Wright:
Oh my God.
Ryan Dalton:
Yeah.
Kyle Olson:
We’re going to do some branded Googling after this of, like, what is the log line of that book?
Pete Wright:
Oh my god. Right? I need to see covers and pictures of all the bands and book covers.
Kyle Olson:
Yeah, there you go.
Ryan Dalton:
Okay, Pete.
Kyle Olson:
Oh yeah, you can see it.
Ryan Dalton:
Okay. It’s your turn, right, Pete?
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Ryan Dalton:
Okay.
Pete Wright:
It is my turn.
Ryan Dalton:
Ablaze My Sorrow.
Pete Wright:
Is “Ablaze” one word or two words?
Ryan Dalton:
It is two words. Ablaze My Sorrow.
Kyle Olson:
Any punctuation in there?
Ryan Dalton:
Nope.
Kyle Olson:
Okay.
Pete Wright:
Is there a comma?
Kyle Olson:
Ablaze, comma.
Ryan Dalton:
You want to buy a vowel next?
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Is there a rogue apostrophe?
Kyle Olson:
Uh-huh.
Pete Wright:
Ablaze My Sorrow. Is there a dinosaur involved in the art at any place?
Kyle Olson:
I was thinking it sounded — “ablaze” made me think piratey.
Pete Wright:
I’m kidding. I don’t even need to know.
Kyle Olson:
I was thinking maybe, you know, you have your Fabio cover with—
Pete Wright:
Oh, Ablaze, Me Hardies, is the way it — Ablaze My Sorrow.
Kyle Olson:
Yeah. Ablaze My Sorrows.
Pete Wright:
Okay. So that makes me think that it’s a romance novel. Ablaze My Sorrow. It sounds like somebody writing something to sound like something that is a period romance.
Kyle Olson:
But you can also see, like, that scrawled on a piece of notebook paper above some lyrics of, like, “my love for you is like a truck.”
Pete Wright:
Uh-huh, there you go.
Kyle Olson:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Do you know what it could be? It could be decorative calligraphic font and a volcano erupting in the background.
Kyle Olson:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
And that could be their whole brand.
Kyle Olson:
I can walk you down both paths, Pete.
Pete Wright:
I really can. God. I’m going to go with a death metal band. I can see the logo.
Kyle Olson:
Yeah.
Ryan Dalton:
Pete, it’s a death metal band.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Kyle Olson:
Whoa.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Ryan Dalton:
I’m going to call it there because you are officially three to one, Pete.
Kyle Olson:
Uh-huh. Okay.
Pete Wright:
Wow, what a good day for Uncle Pete, huh?
Ryan Dalton:
Pete, you blazed into the lead for that.
Pete Wright:
Oh.
Kyle Olson:
You are blazed above it.
Ryan Dalton:
Yeah, so you ablaze.
Pete Wright:
That was outstanding. Do you have the logo of the band? I’m really curious about it.
Ryan Dalton:
No, I just have — I just wrote them down. I didn’t keep any of the art. I’m wishing that I had now because I think that’d be hilarious.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Ryan Dalton:
But—
Pete Wright:
That is hilarious.
Kyle Olson:
Yeah, we can link to the books to help some of our fellow struggling authors.
Pete Wright:
I—
Ryan Dalton:
Okay, well, we are at just about an hour here, so that’s it for this episode, and indeed this season of Craft and Chaos. But you will hear us again before too long. In the meantime, I leave you with a bit of wisdom from one of the best comedies ever written:
“There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
Clearly, it is the second part — the missing — which presents the difficulties.
That’s it for Craft and Chaos. See you next time.
Kyle Olson:
Go make weird art.
