Megan Hunter
Welcome to It’s All Your Fault on True Story FM The one and only podcast dedicated to helping you with the most challenging human interactions, those involving high-conflict people. I’m Megan Hunter and I’m here with my co-host, Bill Eddy.
Bill Eddy
Hi, everybody.
Megan Hunter
We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute and ConflictInfluencer. com, where we focus on training, consulting, coaching, and educational programs and methods all to do with high conflict. So welcome back, listeners. Thank you for listening while you’re running on the treadmill today, which is something I should be doing. Today, we’re talking about something that’s incredibly common and deeply misunderstood. What happens when you’re dealing with a truly high conflict person, but no one else sees it? Or they underestimate it, even if they see it as a little bit high conflict. This happens in the legal world, at work, in couples counseling, adult protective services, in groups, just really anywhere. You may be the client who walks into a lawyer’s office or an employee who walks into the HR office already overwhelmed trying to explain a pattern of behavior that really doesn’t fit neatly into a box. Or a case or situation that should have been wrapped up months or years ago. And it’s still churning because limits aren’t being set by those who can set them. Or maybe there’s blind spots or even some conflict avoidance Or maybe you’re the professional sensing that something is off in the case dynamics, but struggling to articulate it in a way that courts or whatever landscape you’re in will recognize or respond to it. High conflict personalities don’t present as difficult in obvious ways, most generally In fact, they can appear calm, persuasive, even credible, while the other person or party, often after months or years of escalation, starts to look emotional, reactive, or even unreasonable. It can be quite frustrating. And that is the trap, right? Because without a framework for understanding high conflict behavior a system can unintentionally reward the very behaviors that are driving the conflict and penalize the person who is trying to respond to it. And we hear cases over and over in situations where a high conflict legal case ends up ruining someone financially And they can’t get anyone to understand it or listen. And the system seems designed to work against them. So today we’re going to explore why that happens. how it shows up in real life and what both clients and any professionals can do differently to recognize high conflict dynamics and address your approach before things spiral out of control. further out of control. So Bill, um I know that uh this is something that you’ve experienced quite a lot, uh probably in your consultation work and um because I do I know I hear it a lot that just so much frustration over not getting people to understand what’s going on. So why do high conflict people often come across as more credible than the person reacting react reacting to them? It’s not all the time, but sometimes it it happens.
Bill Eddy
Well, high conflict people generally have a lifetime of dealing with the effects of their personality. and they often don’t really understand themselves and they don’t reflect on themselves. They’re very used to seeing everybody else being at fault and themselves not not responsible for things. And so they’re experienced at blaming other people. I think of them as persuasive blamers, that they’re really good at persuading other people that it’s all your fault. Even if it’s, you know, you may have a tiny part in the situation, but it’s not all your fault. And so you’re dealing with in a sense a professional high conflict person. This doesn’t start as adults. This gets started in childhood And may or may not include a personality disorder. And personality people with personality disorders are considered to be about 10% of adults. maybe even around the world, especially in um more urbanized, modernized countries. So on the one hand, high conflict people are good at this and good at looking good for a while. They can hold it together for a while. But then the other thing is that most high conflict behavior goes on in private. So bullying, domestic violence, alienating children, uh spreading rumors about things people don’t know well what’s true or what’s not. I can’t see what’s happening inside that house. So it goes on in private. So people don’t realize how much high conflict behavior there is, because in public people make themselves look good. So you have a public persona and a private personality And that’s where, like, you know, you find out your neighbor was a serial killer, but they were so nice when they greeted you in the morning.
Megan Hunter
They didn’t show up with an axe, I like to say.
Bill Eddy
That’s right. So, you know, there’s there’s these two sides. High conflict people very much have a public persona that they craft. and try to make look good because they’ve experienced people turning against them because of their bad behavior generally in private. And so they’re skilled at that. So that’s the one. They’re skilled at that. But the other is society isn’t really prepared because so much of this goes on in private. And so people have the belief that they understand how people work. And I thought that too until I really learned about high conflict people. There’s this whole different, you know, 10 10 to 15, 20 percent of people that operate differently. And as you say, Megan, and I like this term, is they have a different operating system. And it’s like like an alcoholic deals with alcohol differently from someone that occasionally drinks too much It’s a pattern of behavior. Well, high conflict people deal with conflict in a way that’s different than most people. And you have to learn how to manage that. So society doesn’t recognize it and hyconflic people are skilled at covering it up. So I think that’s why people don’t see it.
Megan Hunter
Yeah, and I I’ve seen some cases where there’s just kind of an Osh, good old boy or good ol good old gal, you know, when uh presenting to the public, but in private, just as high conflict as can be. Or presenting on Facebook or other social media as this just amazing human being and caring and concerned. But when it comes to relationships when it you know, real relationships and real conflict and decision making d decision making and problem solving, it’s is an entirely different pattern, as you say, Bill. So what are the biggest mistakes that people make when trying to prove someone is high conflict, whether it’s in court or the HR office? I I I have stepped on a couple of landmines on this one myself when I’ve tried to explain that, you know, look, there’s this pattern of high conflict behavior, even saying pattern and doing it w in what I thought was the right way just made me look a little crazy, I think, and trying to explain to a professional that the people you’re going to be interviewing have this this pattern of high conflict behavior and you really need to look for this and this and this. So I’m probably um being a little too bossy, which of course we all know is in my nature, but trying to get someone to s to to see the light, remove the blind spot, so and and prove their high conflict. So where where are these big mistakes?
Bill Eddy
This this is what I’ve really focused on a lot the last few years is the mistakes are making it too complicated. And you have to communicate in simple terms because that’s what high conflict people do. What’s interesting is they use simple terms, they use emotional terms, and they repeat them a lot. And and they’re like bombard people with it. It’s like, oh my goodness, this other person is, you know, the most evil person in the world because you know, the person in front of me saying this over and over again. So what I find is you need to keep it simple and I think to keep it simple, think of like three biggest concerns. Here’s my three biggest concerns. and have a short phrase for each one that includes some emotion to it. So like in divorce cases, I’ll say undermining father’s parenting. And that’s a very common theme. And undermining’s not good. I mean, you know, that has a sound to it. You keep saying, here’s another example of undermining father’s parenting.
Megan Hunter
As opposed to dad’s a bad dad.
Bill Eddy
Right, right. And and that’s what you’re countering.
Megan Hunter
Or he has a personality disorder, or he’s a high conflict person, or right?
Bill Eddy
Yeah, so that’s what you’re hearing is a label for a person, and it may be for you. I’ve been labeled bad things. But by saying undermining and saying behaviors, so you could say my concern is is she’s undermining father’s parenting, and here’s three examples. You give your three worst examples so you get an idea of how bad this is. Or physical abuse of mother. uh physical abuse of mother. On this day he did this, on this day he did that, on this day he did that. So that you’re hearing specific behaviors and and you can picture them from what’s being said. But here’s another example of abusing mother or whatever term. But three or four words can can stick. And I love it when I’m in court and and the judge starts saying my three or four word concern. Well, it just seems to me like this is a c This is an example of misleading professionals. Ma’am, you’ve been misleading professionals. And I’m I’m like, yes, they they get it now. This is the pattern of behavior. Now, if I say pattern of behavior, some people push back. And I think you were suggesting that. So just saying Here’s the behavior. Here’s examples of my concern. It’s my biggest concern. And it often has to do with with misrepresenting or lying, with undermining other people. And this could be in the workplace too. Is, you know, things are disappearing from my desk. so-and-so said, don’t be surprised if some of your things disappear because of how you’ve treated me. And you realize, uh-oh, they’re telling me where they’re headed. So wherever it is, keep it simple, like no more than like three key messages and examples, the worst examples under each of those. Don’t worry about saying things in chronological order. That’s a mistake a lot of lawyers make, I think. They’ll tell you the whole story, but the key point comes on page seven in the middle, and that was right around when the reader, like the judge. Started thinking about lunch and and missed it.
Megan Hunter
Or an app.
Bill Eddy
So you need to get it out there right away. My biggest concerns are this, and here’s three of the biggest examples
Megan Hunter
I tend to think in terms of of you know, chronological order. So um I I think it is a trap that a lot of people do fall into. I I really do like the uh describing the behaviors instead of saying pattern of behavior or which you and I know it is a pattern of behavior, but it’s it’s not gonna come off well. I think of, you know, what are those commonalities that we see in high conflict situations? And it’s Often there’s abuse happening in the background. Maybe it’s child abuse or neglect. Maybe it’s elder abuse. Very, very common, right?
Bill Eddy
More of that now. Yep.
Megan Hunter
Oh, so much more of it. And f financial abuse, uh, medical abuse, there’s so many, many, many things that that appear in these cases. And it can be difficult to get people to listen and understand. So if you can can point out the behaviors and or how about connecting Let’s say potentially abusive situations to the standards or the state laws Is let’s say an adult protective services worker going to be offended if you say, well, here’s the law and here’s where it’s not being met in this situation? Um, how would you put would you s use that bill? And if so, how would you say it in a less maybe um uh a more nice way?
Bill Eddy
I’ve I’ve done that as a lawyer. I’ve pointed out the law to other lawyers and you’ve gotta be careful you don’t offend them. And so I’ll say, I’m sure you know this, but I just thought I’d print it out. You have to you have to sugarcoat things with with professionals and friends who think they know everything because it’s like you you may need their help And yet there’s something they don’t know, but they don’t know they don’t know it. And that’s the problem. And so what what I’ll say is either you probably know this, but I thought I’d just quote it Or you may not be aware of such and such, and then I’ll say the information that I have. But I have to be real careful that I’m not challenging them, especially if I want their help in solving a case. Let’s say it’s the opposing lawyer And I really think we gotta keep this case out of court. It’s not gonna be good for either one of our clients. And and we’re probably gonna look bad as lawyers if we’re in court on this this particular case And so I think we should both try to accomplish such and such. And here’s a piece of information you may not be aware of, blah di blah di blah. So I think that I remember telling a opposing lawyer in a case, I said, I think within the next couple weeks your client’s probably going to fire you. And so I just want to give you the heads up. Well, that’s crazy, Bill. We got along fine. Two weeks later the client fires us. How did you know? Well, there’s just I get some things were said that I heard that person said to you that are warning signs to me of the end of a relationship. So I I don’t know. It’s tricky, but you’ve you’ve got to try to help work with them. You can’t lecture people that you want to get help from. That’s one thing I’ve learned.
Megan Hunter
Yeah, and and I guess disavow yourself from the the notion that you’re going to absolutely get your point across. Because The high conflict personality isn’t a known thing to m to a lot of people. Even if they’ve experienced it before, they don’t understand it and they don’t
Bill Eddy
They don’t have words
Megan Hunter
They don’t have words, or they don’t even think there’s some who don’t think it’s possible that people really do behave in this way. Oh, that that’s not happening. That he would never do that. She would never do that. I don’t believe it. And then they go And I’m I’m thinking of a particular case, and I keep going back to adult protective services with this, where, you know, there was such a clear case of abuse in so many ways. But the manipulation of the adult protective service worker prevailed, even though this is someone who’s trained in in abuse They’re still manipulated and probably were given a big question mark over their their head their own head, thinking, you know, that this isn’t possible. This isn’t reality. People don’t really behave this badly Unless it’s some major, major case you read about in the news. But the reality is this happens a lot all the time and it isn’t always ending up in the news. These are everyday situations. So you’re the person who’s trying to relay information to a professional who has some power, some decision making um authority in some way, whether it’s at work, at home, in school, or any s any situation. So in order to make yourself not appear crazy and blaming yourself, is that’s often what happens. It gets completely turned around. And we should add law enforcement in there too Right. You’re upset.
Bill Eddy
Sometimes, yeah.
Megan Hunter
You’re sometimes right. You’re upset. You’re telling this big long story and it’s like ah that didn’t really happen or you s you sound a little little hysterical. You need to pipe down or you need to call this person or that person So it can be really extraordinarily frustrating when you know what’s really happened and what’s going on. You can’t communicate that. You can’t get someone to understand. Then you finally blow your lid. You finally get so frustrated, and then you kind of vent. And this is very common in in high conflict. So You know, look, it’s going to happen. Hopefully, you know, if you’re if you listeners have done this before, you know exactly uh what it feels like to go is to have the regret after you’ve vented. You know, w we try not to to do that. You know, find a more appropriate place. Don’t send that email till the next day, you know, you can have some way you can biff it. or talk to someone, get their their feedback because they’re going to not have the same emotion that you do and they’re gonna say, oh, you might want to slow your roll on this deal. Right. And and you okay, that’s that’s good advice. Now, if you have done the venting, can it be repaired, Bill?
Bill Eddy
We’re not recommending that as a strategy.
Megan Hunter
No, no.
Bill Eddy
So you’re saying if accidentally you’ve done the venting, go ahead
Megan Hunter
Accidentally. Right. Accidentally. And you know, it is a reality because high conflict is the most frustrating. Thing that I think people deal with in life. So many people do finally, yeah. I guess the common responses will be overreacting, underreacting. uh just completely avoiding there’s lots of ways to handle it, but I I think many people do eventually overreact. So can it be repaired if you do overreact? Let’s let’s say you’ve you know, vented to your attorney or to the HR department and now you know you look a little cray cray. Can you go back and say, look, I was looking a little cracky? Or is there something, some other way that can be handled?
Bill Eddy
Yeah, well, if you don’t think they’re a high conflict person, let’s say you you’ve yelled at your lawyer, say you’re sorry. There’s a place for apologies for I did something and I’m sorry I didn’t mean to, I got really upset But if you think they’re a high conflict person, we actually recommend against apologizing because then they turn that against you. What I find often in these situations with someone that’s just not getting it is to say, you know, I didn’t believe it at first. I was really shocked to realize that this was a totally false statement. At first I was really upset and thought this other person was acting badly. And then I realized, no, the person that’s saying that is a persuasive blamer. There’s someone really good at saying it’s other people’s fault when it’s really their fault. And I was shocked But let me tell you what the facts are that I learned that turned it around for me. And then say your examples like if, you know, she’s actively undermining his relationship with the child. Or another person’s actively abusing her. So I think it helps to kind of agree with them that this sounds strange. And I’ve been able to say sometimes I I really didn’t realize it at first either. So I share your skepticism. And here’s the facts, or here’s what I found out, or here’s what the law says. And I think of a a case of uh false allegations of child sexual abuse. And as a social worker, I’ve worked with a lot of true cases. And I’d say very rare that people end up being around or hearing about a case of child sexual abuse, except in the news. And it’s one of the worst things that could happen to anybody. Children are vulnerable. This is a terrible thing. But it happens a small percent. Um, it happens more than people think, but it’s still a small percent. And so when it’s been false I’ve had a real uphill sometimes with people. I have one client who medically treated their their child’s genitals because of some um bed bugs and such bites And and the other parents said that’s child sexual abuse. Well the code, the um criminal code defines sexual abuse very specifically and says and that it’s not child sexual abuse when applying uh medically prescripted treatments And it’s like, this needs to be read out loud because this person, my client, did not abuse the child. They didn’t get excited by it. Child didn’t get excited. They just took care of a problem. And so that was where it’s like, I know it’s hard to believe, but this turns out the evidence shows this is what’s happening, not what you jumped to the conclusion of.
Megan Hunter
Yeah, so it’s it’s it’s a matter of I guess the the key takeaways here would be really listen, be objective. Be a matter of fact, look for evidence, right, when someone’s bringing a claim of of some kind. Don’t be just dismissive or or think that this person is histrionic or high conflict just because they’re raising the issue. But do be objective. and listen and do your own due diligence. Um if something feels off, you’ll probably find it. And if you don’t, and there’s still kind of a question mark You know, talk to someone you trust and bounce it off of them. But so let’s say in um one last question here, Bill, in a legal case. How would an attorney adjust their strategy once they recognize high conflict dynamics in a case? And there are a lot of attorneys who have had some, you know, training around high conflict, but maybe not high conflict personalities and understand that core personality that is driving every emotion, every decision, every you know, just informing everything and causing the disruption. So now you kind of get it. How how can you adjust your strategy?
Bill Eddy
Well I would say present like presenting in court is saying You know, I understand in a high conflict case that the court has to consider at least three theories of the case. There’s allegations of bad behavior. One theory is it’s true, and you’ve got to consider that and look into that. Second theory is it’s not true at all, and the person making the allegations is acting badly. And the third theory is that both are acting badly fairly equally. In this case, Your Honor, it’s the first. Or it’s the second, and I will be able to explain in detail why that is, even though it may seem surprising. The facts really show us that the behavior here is really quite different from what was presented on the surface And here’s my three biggest concerns, and here’s examples of my three biggest concerns. And now I’ll go into my full case presentation. So I would get it up front that this is this is something that you’re gonna have to think harder about. This isn’t what it looks like on the surface. And one of the stories you’re gonna hear today is true. And one of them is completely false. And you’re gonna have to figure out which one. But I would like to suggest that it’s our story, because we really can back it up with facts Whereas the other side’s gonna back it up with a lot of emotion and bluster. And don’t be deceived by that. The facts tell us what’s really going on here. And let me begin.
Megan Hunter
Uh that’s that’s great. That’s great. Yeah. Well good. Okay, well I guess the bottom line you just have to to remind yourself if you’re involved in a situation like this to s to just stay reasonable and you have to Even when you feel really frustrated, take that frustration in a different direction and put it on pause, go to the gym or something before you write that nasty email or before you l lose your cool and and scream and yell at someone. So We wish all everyone the best in these situations. Thank you for listening today. You’ll find the links to all of our classes and training. And on the professional side, we do have several uh recorded trainings of you, Bill, speaking about handling high conflict cases, different personality types involved, and uh we have a a really great online training. It’s I think it’s only 30 minutes long about writing for court where you talk about how to put those themes up front and that. So we’ll put those links in the show note along with a lot of the books and and uh classes. If you’re looking for training or consultation about a high conflict situation for your organization, find us at highconflictinstitute. com. If you have a high conflict situation in your personal life, visit us at conflictinfluencer. com. Keep learning and practicing skills. Be kind to yourself and to others while we all try to keep the conflict small and find the missing piece. It’s All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM. Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins, and Ziv Moran. Find the show, show notes, and transcripts at truestory. fm or highconflictinstitute. com slash podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.
