Mary Herbert:
It’s in the room with you, whether you notice it, whether you know what to call it. It’s there, but it’s not always discussed.

Giselle Flores Martin:
We’re really good at hiding it. We are really, really good at hiding it, because there’s that feeling of, wow, they’re gonna find out that I don’t know what I’m doing — when you really do.

Pete Wright:
In 1978, two psychologists in Atlanta, Pauline Clance and Suzanne Imes, published a paper about something they kept hearing in their therapy sessions. Their clients were accomplished women with degrees and promotions and awards, and they were each convinced to some degree that those accomplishments and accolades were all luck, and that sooner or later someone would notice they didn’t belong. Clance and Imes called it the impostor phenomenon, and Clance recognized it because she lived it. She was the youngest of six kids from coal country in Appalachian Virginia, and she carried that same doubt through every academic success she earned.

So the idea was born as a women’s story, told by a woman who felt it. In the decades since, researchers have found it just about everywhere — in men, in executives, in people who would never use the word. That leaves a trickier question. If nearly everyone feels it, why do some of us get handed so much more of it to carry?

This spring, today’s guests stood in front of a packed room at WACUBO and took that question on. Today, we pick up where the applause left off. Mary Herbert is Principal Leadership Consultant and Coach with Teibel Education, and Dr. Giselle Flores Martin is Director of Finance and Operations at Stanford, and her doctoral research is on women in senior leadership. I’m Pete Wright, and this is Navigating Change.

Mary, Giselle, welcome. Thank you so much for your time. Let’s pick up on that note, after the applause, if we consider this a continuation of that initial conversation. I’m curious about the aftermath of your presentation. What did you find people were most interested in talking with you about in the hallway, maybe, that you didn’t expect? Mary, do you want to kick us off?

Mary Herbert:
Absolutely. Well, it’s interesting that you say the hallway, because we didn’t even make it out to the hallway before folks started to approach us. And one of the big things that we heard was just the fact that we were given a platform by which to openly talk about this. So many of the participants in the session were happy to be in a place where they could actually speak about it, when normally it’s something that is there but is not frequently spoken of. So we went over quite a bit that it’s in the room with you, whether you notice it, whether you know what to call it. It’s there, but it’s not always discussed.

Pete Wright:
Yeah.

Mary Herbert:
So that’s one of the key things that was discussed when people approached me. What about you, Giselle? Because I know you had several folks that were around you as well.

Giselle Flores Martin:
Oh yes, yes. The folks that approached me — there were many women, and there were also some men that approached me, and they were so appreciative of the facts that were provided. The facts of the research that suggests that women are indeed transformational leaders, and have the skills to be so. It was almost like having it right in front of your face was this aha moment. Oh wow, yes, I do have those skill sets. I am transformational. I am a great leader. Or if it wasn’t an aha moment, it was absolutely a reminder to the women and men that were there.

I specifically remember this young man. Do you remember him, Mary? He was probably no older than 25, the CEO of his own company, and he really appreciated the message that Mary and I were giving on the imposter syndrome and how to navigate it. And then, of course, the skill set that women have that makes them transformational leaders. He encouraged us to continue speaking about this, and he further said that this was a topic that the younger generation can benefit from.

Pete Wright:
I think this is the catch-22 of any conversation about imposter syndrome. I talk to both of you and I see you both as super accomplished, well-read, deeply insightful on this topic. And yet one of the things you tease in the conversation at WACUBO is your own experience living with this yourselves. I think it would be a disservice to the conversation without talking a little bit about your experience learning about imposter phenomenon as it relates to your own work and your own accomplishments, which are aplenty.

Giselle Flores Martin:
I have to go back to my early, early years, as a young girl born and raised in the projects of LA.

Fast forward to 2022. I was getting hooded, had completed my doctoral degree, and my sister Perla had just passed the California bar exam within that same week. And my youngest sister, Melina, she looked at me and she shared, we weren’t supposed to make it. Like, we weren’t supposed to make it. How could kids born and raised in the projects of LA make it? But through our parents we learned the importance of perseverance and a strong work ethic, and I would say that we did make it. But it was not easy, Pete. Until this date, however, while some might view us as accomplished — it was one degree after the other, after the other — there’s still that imposter syndrome in us.

Before the recording, I graciously asked you to address me as Dr. Giselle Flores Martin. Not so that I could be recognized as that by others, but so that I could recognize it myself. Because I still feel like an imposter. Really, Dr. Giselle Flores Martin? It’s still in my head.

Mary Herbert:
What’s fascinating for me is I grew up and I’d never heard of anything around imposter syndrome. It was something that I learned about actually just in the last three years, in the work that we do at Teibel Education with different levels of leadership. What was fascinating for me is I was raised in a family where I was always told that you can accomplish whatever it is that you set out to do. There’s always a way to do it. And I was raised in an environment where I had many opportunities to do that as well. So I was going along accomplishing things, and part of accomplishing things for me was ensuring that I was doing things to the best of my ability, to a level of perfection. To accomplish things, you also have to work hard at this. So that means putting in extra time and effort — no problem.

These are values that I embraced. Hard work. Good quality. Perfectionism was fine, until I entered into a highly technical field when I was very young. So in my early 20s, I became a technical instructor, and it was amongst a group of typically much older, male-dominated types. I also tended to look very young. And I tell you the story because this is when it started to shift. So I had to make sure that I looked the part. I would always ensure that I was in a very nice suit, minimal jewelry, anything that wasn’t going to draw attention away from the knowledge that I did have. So I would prove that I really belonged in front of them, conveying this information. I didn’t feel like an imposter, I just felt that I was showing up the best way I could.

Where imposter syndrome came in — and I did some work on this, because I started reading about it, I was introduced to imposter syndrome by some work by Dr. Lisa Orbé-Austin — was when I entered into consulting, and this was almost 16 years ago. In consulting, now I was not only the expert, I was then supposed to guide you with my expertise. I would say this is really when imposter syndrome actually showed up. I remember going into my first consulting engagement. I worked for a small consulting company, part of a startup out of the San Francisco Bay Area, and I was to be the resident expert and guide this big transformational change management program.

And I was like, what am I doing here? They’re gonna find out that I really do not know what I’m doing. It didn’t matter that I had, up to that point, 10 years of experience leading technology, developing technical programs, assessing people’s needs. I just felt at that moment that they were going to find out that I was an imposter. So what did I do? I doubled down on those values that I always carried with me. And that’s where that shift to imposter syndrome came. It came from less of “this is a value” and more of “this is armor, this is protection.”

So I’ve got to work these extra hours. I’ve got to perform perfectly. That way they won’t find out that I actually don’t belong here. And it was from that point on that I always had this way of working that — this is a whole other conversation — eventually led to burnout for me, that I had to actually step away from this work, take a year off, and return to it in a different capacity.

Pete Wright:
I think it’s fascinating what happens when we apply the language to define a thing that has gone heretofore undescribed. I want to talk a little bit about the words, imposter syndrome. Why do you find the label itself is helpful? Because I think we can go two ways about it. For many people, just knowing that it’s a thing makes you feel what? Less alone. It makes you feel like others might have empathy for what you’re going through, that you can talk about it openly and vulnerably. But also, swinging the other way, does it become, or risk becoming, a part of your permanent identity? I’m curious how you approach the idea of having a label and what it does for you.

Mary Herbert:
It really goes back to this definition, and you mentioned it earlier. It was titled originally as a phenomenon, not a syndrome. So when you hear the word syndrome, you actually think that, oh, is this some type of illness?

Pete Wright:
Yeah, it’s definitely contagious, right?

Mary Herbert:
Is this something that — exactly. And we could talk about that as well. Don’t propagate this. But it really is not an illness, it’s a feeling. And I think it’s important to be able to put, quote unquote, a label on it, because it gives you something that shows you that it really isn’t part of an identity. This is more of — and we do a lot of this in our work with Teibel Education — we look at our way of being. How are we showing up? And this is just another way of being that you can actually choose to shift. Now, it may not be easy.

Imposter syndrome is something that I always say can be in the room with you, but it’s more recognizing it and then determining how you want to respond to that, versus a natural reaction. I will give you another story. We had someone in our leadership program, and we talk about imposter syndrome as part of that program. This individual said, thank you so much for letting me know that these ways in which I’ve been showing up — not putting my hand up and sharing my idea, for example, for fear that someone will think that I don’t know what I’m talking about, only to hear someone else say it and get accolades for it. Or, again, doing that overworking to prove my worth. She said, because that’s letting me know that this is actually not just me, I’m not the only one experiencing it, but also that it’s something that I can choose to work through. It’s changeable.

Pete Wright:
Giselle, I’d love for you to weigh in on that point, specifically this idea that having the label makes it a thing you can target.

Giselle Flores Martin:
Well, so a couple of things. We’re really good at hiding it. We are really, really good at hiding it, because there is — or there has been — that feeling of, wow, they’re gonna find out that I don’t know what I’m doing. When you really do. You really do know what you’re doing.

I don’t think that individuals should be labeled with it, but recognizing that it’s something that exists. And as hard as we work on it, it is something that tends to creep back in. So there’s this young lady that I’ve been mentoring, I think for about a year now. I noticed that in a meeting she was not leaning into the table. She was invited as a guest. She didn’t join the table at all. She sat down in a corner. I pulled her aside and I shared with her the importance of joining the table. And I noticed that she was suffering from imposter syndrome. So I worked with her throughout a whole year. This young lady ended up applying for school.

We recognized that perhaps pursuing a college degree would help her. She completed a bachelor’s degree. She’s on her way to completing a master’s degree. She’ll be completing it, I think, in May. And to this day there are still times when that imposter syndrome pops back up. There’s a job that I encouraged her to apply for, but she’s like, well, maybe I don’t have the skills. And it’s like, no, we need to get away from that imposter syndrome. Not necessarily labeling yourself as having imposter syndrome, but recognizing this is something that exists, that’s not necessarily going to go away, that we could work on. But it’s constant work.

Mary Herbert:
There are ways that imposter syndrome was showing up that I would never have even labeled as that. Avoiding new opportunities is one of them. So you have that person who really is ripe and ready for promotion, or to try something new, but they’re avoiding it, or they turn it down if it’s presented to them. Second-guessing a decision, even though they’ve made equivalent decisions in the past successfully — they’re second-guessing the decisions that they’re making. Not delegating, because if I delegate, someone may think that I’m delegating because I don’t know how to do this. So it’s really there, it’s showing up. And sometimes, Pete, going back to it, it’s good to name it, that there are these behaviors going on that they don’t necessarily know are tied to a particular phenomenon that they can actually work through.

Pete Wright:
It is such an interesting thing. I love that you bring up not delegating. The corollary to that is not delegating because, dear God, somebody might find out how I’ve been doing it, and it’s wrong. I wonder how many listening might look at their own behavior and not recognize that there is a fundamental breakdown in trust in the world around you. This seems like an issue of trust — that I don’t trust it when my peers or my managers actually tell me that I am competent, that I have demonstrated competence. I don’t trust them. That’s imposter syndrome.

It may be that I am feeling like I am not able to do a thing because I’m fundamentally underqualified. That’s the other side. You may actually not know what you’re doing. But if you have these signals from the world around you that you are doing the right thing, and you are mentoring, as Giselle said, you’re mentoring people and describing to them when they are successful — teaching someone to rebuild the muscle that is their trust muscle seems to be a fundamental strategy to help move to the other side of this. I’d love to talk more about the mentorship experience, Giselle, because I’d like to hear how you are able to coach someone through a conversation about trusting themselves and trusting the signals around them that are coming in describing their competence.

Giselle Flores Martin:
One of the things that I like to share with anyone that I’ve mentored is we are going to have so many individuals in our life tell us no. We’re not good enough. We don’t have the skill set. You’re underqualified. Sometimes you’re overqualified. However, I believe it’s important that we don’t do that to ourselves. And that’s the very, very, very first thing that I tell folks. You should not be the one closing the door on yourself. There’s already going to be quite a bit of people doing that for you. It shouldn’t be you.

But when it comes to women and the imposter syndrome, as we’re learning how to recognize it, it doesn’t only affect women that are just starting out, in junior roles. It also affects women in senior leadership roles, and how they interact with others. So one of the leaders that I interviewed — I asked her about her experiences, and who was her mentor, and did she benefit from other women mentoring her? And for her it was quite the opposite. She shared a story of a specific supervisor that, instead of elevating her, brought her down. In other words, she said, she kind of tried to keep me in my place.

And Mary, that’s when I started to research the imposter syndrome. What I learned in this specific situation is that individuals that work really hard to get to where they’re at — there’s the feeling of, there’s not enough to go around. So I need to ensure that I retain this for myself. What is the name for the thought that there’s a shortage of, you know —

Pete Wright:
Scarcity versus abundance.

Giselle Flores Martin:
Scarcity. The scarcity mindset, yes. The thought that there’s no more to go around. And that is also a result of the imposter syndrome. As a result, there are times where we’re not elevating others. Instead, we tend to keep them in a place where we feel comfortable.

Mary Herbert:
Pete, I want to go back to what you said, because Giselle, those are great points. Where you said not trusting yourself — because really, with imposter syndrome, we’re not talking about the old fake it till you make it. It’s like, oh, I’m gonna show up and act like I know these things and I’m putting on this mask until people believe me.

Pete Wright:
Right, right. It’s very different.

Mary Herbert:
You look at this definition that I pulled from the work with Dr. Lisa Orbé-Austin and Dr. Richard Orbé-Austin. I just want to read this definition that they give, because it’s so important. It’s the experience of constantly feeling like a fraud, downplaying one’s accomplishments, and always being concerned about being exposed as incompetent or incapable, despite evidence of success or accomplishments.

And that’s the big piece here that people will sometimes have this aha moment about. It’s despite evidence. And so one of the things, even to help folks move through imposter syndrome, is to build your evidence bank, so that when you are feeling that doubt, you can go back and look at these things that you’ve accomplished to once again say, you know what, yes, I can step into something that may feel slightly different. But I belong there. And if I need my own proof, I can go visit my rich bank of things that I have done. So that is one thing that you can do.

Another thing you can actually do as well, and Giselle and I do this with each other, is talk to someone who knows you and your accomplishments, and have that honest discussion with them. I’m feeling right now, Giselle, walking into this, that I’m feeling a little like an imposter, that I don’t really belong, I shouldn’t be there. And to have that conversation with a trusted person — so this is where trust comes in again — they can actually help you work through that and say, well, wait a minute, let’s really look at some of these things that you have done.

Giselle Flores Martin:
And not everybody recognizes it. Mary, there are many a time when folks don’t recognize that they’re suffering from the imposter syndrome. So gently sharing with individuals, hey, I think you might be going through this right now. Let’s talk about that. Why are you feeling uncomfortable when I compliment you? Why are you feeling uncomfortable when I just gave you praise, when I listed for you all of the accomplishments that I see?

Pete Wright:
I think that is such a central gem of an idea that, to my mind, unlocks so many of the complicated layers of imposter syndrome, of imposter phenomena. And it does open the door to a question that I would love you to reflect on, the both of you. This conversation was about women and imposter syndrome. The entire conceit of imposter phenomenon was based on the women’s experience. And as much as I don’t care to make this a gendered conversation as much as I can — because why would we want to take the idea from something that absolutely affects women in senior leadership, in new careers — this doesn’t just happen to women. I’m curious about your thoughts on how it shows up across the gender spectrum, and what other issues are at play, to expand the way we think about where imposter syndrome shows up and how we can help those who work for us and with us assess it.

Mary Herbert:
Yeah, Pete, it’s great that you brought this up. I love that you gave us the origin, that it was showing up based on the work that was done by Dr. Pauline Clance and Dr. Suzanne Imes, because they were observing it in women. But research after that has shown that it’s not necessarily more predominant in women or men. Men experience imposter syndrome as well, but they may experience it, or it may show up, in a different way, or how they respond to it may be different.

So one example is a man that may be experiencing imposter syndrome. There has been some research where they may not step into an opportunity that they’re not comfortable with, where a woman may step into that opportunity and then continue to work and accomplish and try to be successful. Now, what’s the difference with that? As a result, for the man, they may then miss those opportunities to be able to grow, because they’re stepping into opportunities that they more or less know that they can succeed in. Where the women may then step into these and maybe be showing these other signs of additional overwork, perfectionism, all of these other things as well. But it’s showing up. They both have imposter syndrome. They’re just responding to it in a different way.

Giselle Flores Martin:
My research was focused primarily on women. And while I do know that imposter syndrome does show up in men — and a lot of the times it could be from our upbringings. Back in our generation, when we were growing up, the boys were the doctors and the girls were the nurses, and you get my point. A lot of pressure on the men, or on the boys. I have to be that doctor. And then for the young girls, well, then I’m gonna be the nurse, and that’s all we can do.

But from my study, since I did just focus on women, one of the things that I found is that we certainly do have double standards as it pertains to women. In my research I wanted to understand the many barriers that women face as they’re trying to navigate their career. And a big one, 61%, was a woman’s lack of confidence as the barrier to their career progression. That was followed by 54%, gender stereotypes, not building your leadership voice, and then family responsibilities. But I argue that all of these barriers were connected to the gender stereotypes that did not allow women to elevate their voice.

One of the senior leaders that I interviewed was huge on making sure that women elevate their voice. But then, going back to the double standard, she shared the importance of elevating your voice, but that when you have a voice, then in some instances you’re not respected for that voice. And you’re called — fill in the gap — or names that begin with the letter B. So as a society, we do need to work on the structural norms that are embedded in many organizations. But as individuals, to beat the imposter syndrome and to break through the many barriers, we need to elevate our voice regardless of the double standards that are there and that might not affect men the same way as they affect women.

Pete Wright:
It is a funny catch-22. One of the ways to assert yourself through imposter syndrome is to raise your voice and exert agency and authority and competence. And to do that, you have to get over your imposter syndrome. It is a cycle. I want to talk about some more of that sort of expansionist kind of guidance to help shake people free of that. But before I do, I think there is another — not gender gap, but a generational gap — that I would love you two to address. Giselle, you already mentioned in your mentorship, mentoring someone younger than you. How do you find this is showing up in the younger generations that are coming into the workforce?

Giselle Flores Martin:
Oh wow. I think that the younger generations are definitely a different crowd. There are different work ethics, there are different aspirations. And sometimes it’s not just the younger generation, but it also has to do with culture norms, and where they’re coming from. I think that just having a young voice might be challenging, to insert your voice in a more senior crowd. And to the younger generations, I would say, still insert your voice into the older generations, if that’s what we want to call it. I would say we need to allow a space for that to happen.

Mary Herbert:
Well, I’m really thinking about another way in which imposter syndrome can show up despite generations, and that is comparing to others. I think about the younger generation right now, with a lot of what’s out there with the technology and the likes and all of that. There is this constant comparing. And so this is something that’s fueling a particular way in which imposter syndrome shows up. With this constant comparison, how that will then lead over into their confidence level for when they start to enter anything new. I think that’s what we’re seeing, that in some places it’s proving to be even more detrimental than some of what we experienced.

I also think, historically, some of the things that we’ve gone through, there’s been a level of resilience that we were able to build up before we either recognized imposter syndrome or it started to appear, like for me. And I don’t know, at such a young age where this comparison has begun with the younger generation, if they’re able to build some of that resilience to help them through it. So this is all the more reason it’s very important for us to recognize it and to start to help or mentor, like what Giselle is doing, what we’re doing with our new and emerging leaders in our leadership program, to help them through this.

Giselle Flores Martin:
With the women that I interviewed for my study, I wanted to understand their upbringing, and if that contributed to the senior leaders that they are today. And a lot of what Mary said was what these senior leaders repeated. They had the support from their family. They had the support from their community. They had others elevate them, and that contributed, in their words, to the senior leaders that they are today. So to the young girls, or to the young boys — invest. Investing in our children is absolutely important.

Pete Wright:
I like the way you frame that, because it reminds me that rebuilding the self-trust instinct is building — you could call it a callus, you could call it a muscle, you could call it a habit. It is a habit to believe in yourself. You have to do it enough to be able to do it enough. I think that’s a really important observation.

We’ve already shared a few guidelines for helping to shake yourself into a space where you are more welcome to break free of imposter syndrome. I’m curious what you found in your research, Giselle, particularly the things that surprised you, continuing this discussion of your interviews with the senior women for your research. Things that surprised you about how they are able to move through imposter syndrome, that might be useful for others.

Giselle Flores Martin:
Senior Leader Four was raised on a family farm, by a single mother. I believe she shared she had seven siblings. And she worked her way up to become founder, president, and CEO of a company that was generating over $22 million a year — a company that she founded. And she did not view herself as successful. She didn’t. And it wasn’t until she had that aha moment — oh my God, I have accomplished something, I’ve done really, really well — that she viewed herself as successful.

She was suffering from the imposter syndrome. I mean, this was someone that has been in Forbes magazine, Oprah magazine. She’s won several awards, and still she didn’t view herself as successful. How she worked through it, it was just the aha moment that she had. I don’t think she had anybody — nobody named it. It was just herself recognizing it. I think, however, we are now in a position where we recognize that, and we could recognize it for others.

Mary Herbert:
Giselle, you mentioned something earlier where you said it can also be our histories, or what I see as the stories that we tell ourselves. And this is another way in which to move forward, where we reframe or retell a different story. A lot of this is fed to us, and that could be based on family, could be based on culture, systems. But it’s to rewrite that story that you tell yourself. If I’m telling myself that I have to work hard and I have to put in these extra hours in order to do an excellent job, instead rewrite that and say that I know that I just need to put in enough hours and provide enough time, and also open myself up to feedback from others early, in order to produce something. So learning to know what your original narrative was, and then to be able to rewrite that narrative, is one way also to help tell that story.

So I always like to think of your senior leader in her aha moment as almost like opening up that magazine and realizing, okay, she’s reading now a different story, her new story — which was really her story all along.

Pete Wright:
I love that there exists a universe where we can just be struck by lightning and all of a sudden understand something about ourselves that we never did. I think that is such an important thing to be open to as a human being. At some point, readiness for change is unpredictable and mercurial as a partner, and we just have to ride that particular wave.

As we talk about navigating our experience with imposter syndrome, though, I want to talk about a couple of specific concepts to get you to reflect on. And the first is specificity of praise. When you’re talking to leaders now, leaders working with other team members, sometimes younger, sometimes across genders, what is the importance of specificity of praise? You talk a little bit about vague praise and sharp scrutiny.

Mary Herbert:
We again have found there are findings out there — and again, the talk that we did at the conference was around women — but sometimes what happens is you give very general praise around something that happened well. Oh, you did a really good job on that presentation. Oh, there was great energy you brought to the room. But when there’s something that doesn’t go as well, it can be then very specific. So, that financial model that you created for us had three outdated pieces of data in there, and as a result it put us at risk for really being able to present this to the board properly. So there’s this discrepancy. When I’m doing something well, it’s, oh, great job, continue on your day. When I do something that didn’t hit the mark, it tends to be very critical.

And so what can happen, even with that person with imposter syndrome, is now they’re really looking at, see, once again, this proves that maybe I shouldn’t actually be in this position, because I can’t do anything well. Versus — and again we talk about this in our leadership program, this is a way in which we provide assessments and give feedback — you want to provide grounding and evidence, whether it’s something positive or whether it’s something that can be worked on. Because that way, if it’s something positive, I can do more of it. And I have grounding. I can put that in my evidence bank.

Pete Wright:
Right, right.

Mary Herbert:
And if it’s something that isn’t going as well, I recognize that I can now reframe what I might have said was a failure, reframe that as something that’s a learning opportunity, put that in for the next time, and then maybe that’s something also that can move into the evidence bank. So this is something that everyone can do. Don’t be vague when it comes to something good and then very specific when it’s something that you want them to work on.

Giselle Flores Martin:
And I think, as the individual that’s receiving the feedback — I like how you have your evidence bank, and I like to call it marketing yourself. That’s another way of elevating your voice. Navigating imposter syndrome, it’s really important to market yourself. Everything that you’re putting in your evidence bank, ensure that you share it with others. Supervisor, I just completed this project and it was absolutely amazing. I think that it is important to be an advocate for yourself. Toot your own horn. Market yourself. Share with others what you accomplished.

Pete Wright:
One of the things that I think stands in the way of so many people lifting their hand into the air saying, yes, I know this, I can do this, is the exact opposite, which is the fear of not knowing an answer. I’d love your insights, Giselle, on how you can go about normalizing not having the answer without looking unprepared, and still feeling okay about it.

Giselle Flores Martin:
Yeah, raising your hand is not always about having the answer. Raising your hand can also be about asking the question, but it’s still a way of elevating your voice. Ask what you don’t know. Get a response to that. And that’s additional knowledge that you are attaining. So one thing that we need to be super careful about is, elevating your voice and raising your hand is not always about providing that feedback or sharing the knowledge, it’s also to attain it. But it accomplishes one thing. It gets you noticed.

Pete Wright:
Which is the fear, too, right? What if I’m noticed and I look like a big dummy?

Giselle Flores Martin:
Pete, I’m feeling the imposter syndrome right now, right here. We’re having this conversation and here I am, Dr. Giselle Flores Martin, and still thinking, oh my God, am I rambling on? Did I not have enough information? We’re always gonna have that feeling. All of us. Who knows, maybe you all are having the same feeling that I’m having right now. And just knowing that not everybody in the room has the answer, that not everybody in the room feels confident. As a matter of fact, folks might have a lack of confidence.

Mary Herbert:
I love what you just did, because from what we talk about with our leaders, you have just normalized not having the answer. And that’s what we need leaders to do. We need you to model. People talk about being psychologically safe. You’ve just created an environment for us to say, you know what, it’s okay if I don’t have the answer. It’s okay if I’m feeling like this. So that’s very significant. Thank you for that.

When that uncertainty is visible at that level, then it does reduce that pressure. And this is from a recovering perfectionist, always working on it. It reduces the pressure for us to have to appear perfect.

Giselle Flores Martin:
Yeah. When I first started this job, one of the things that I liked to say was, well, I don’t have all the answers yet. Until I think one of my colleagues said, well, you’re gonna need to stop saying that pretty soon. But just recognizing that you don’t have all the answers, that you’re not always going to be correct, that we’re always evolving and learning, and the beauty of that. But it’s still important to raise your hand, elevate your voice.

Pete Wright:
I see so much of imposter syndrome as a recursive pattern, when we’re truly suffering from it. It is a recursive pattern that must at some point simply be interrupted. And I would love to have you think about this. Let’s let the week go by. Somebody listens to this on a warm Sunday afternoon, and they’re thinking about themselves in this conversation, and they think, what is the one thing I could maybe try tomorrow morning, Monday morning, 8 a.m., that might help break or interrupt the pattern of deflationary imposter phenomenon and allow me to see a little bit more clearly who I am in the world? What are your thoughts?

Giselle Flores Martin:
I’m gonna stick with elevating your voice and building your leadership voice, and how you want to be recognized for it. This is the most powerful tool that we have, even if you have fear. And elevating your voice does not necessarily mean being in a room full of senior leaders where you raise your hand. It might be just tapping your supervisor and sharing an idea, reaching out to someone and giving them a compliment. The whole thing is just elevating your voice, so you can start getting comfortable with it.

Pete Wright:
Mary, 8 a.m., day one.

Mary Herbert:
Just start with being aware. Bring your awareness. Let’s go into sleuth mode. And just start to be aware when you feel these imposter feelings pop up. And then, what might be triggering that? Don’t be aware to do anything about it right now. Just be aware to gather a little bit of data. Not only for yourself — also just be aware, is there anything that you might be doing as well that might be reinforcing imposter behaviors? Is there something that you might be doing that’s causing someone to potentially feel like they have to overwork? And once again, we work a lot with leaders, so I’m speaking to a lot of them.

But right now, don’t be aware to do anything. Just be aware to gather data. And, as we always say, to just be curious about it. And that’s your step one.

Pete Wright:
I love it. Off to a brand new week. This is a fantastic and important conversation, you two. Thank you very much for your time today. What’s next for you on your roadshow? Do we have another presentation in the offing to look forward to? Where can we send people?

Giselle Flores Martin:
Google me, Dr. Giselle Flores Martin. Follow me on LinkedIn if you want to get on a Zoom with me. I am open to chatting with everyone and anyone that wants to get a couple of my gems of wisdom. You shared earlier on — it’s still kind of brewing — there’s a book that will be coming, sometime January, I would say, maybe February. So be on the lookout for that. We will be talking more about the transformational leader.

Pete Wright:
Wonderful. Mary?

Mary Herbert:
Well, I don’t want to give up this partnership with Giselle. It’s been so fun to be able to connect with someone on this topic, and just topics for leaders as well. So we are looking at speaking at another conference next year, where we’re going to dive into even more ways — we’re looking at going to a women’s leadership forum, where we can look at ways in which women can help uplift others. And then just other opportunities for leaders in general, how they can show up in a different way based on imposter syndrome, working through that, or some of the other challenges that leaders have that are even outside of this. So look for more partnership between Giselle and I.

Pete Wright:
Wonderful, wonderful. Names to look out for at upcoming events, folks. Please, please do that. This is a wonderful conversation, and I look forward to continued participation in it. Thank you both so, so much. Mary Herbert and Dr. Giselle Flores Martin. So appreciate you.

On behalf of these two wonderful, wonderful people, we thank you all for downloading and listening to this episode of the show. Thank you for your time and your attention. Don’t forget, if something has struck you about this conversation, here’s a great way to help others: share it with someone that you appreciate in your life, in your career, at work. Someone you think might get something out of seeing some patterns and learning a little bit more about their own leadership style, or about the way they are managed. We would love to help others grow stronger together. On behalf of Dr. Giselle Flores Martin and Mary Herbert, I’m Pete Wright, and we’ll see you next time right here on Navigating Change.