Mandy Kaplan
Hello everybody and welcome to Make Me a Nerd with Mandy Kaplan. I’m Mandy Kaplan. Here’s the deal. I’m a mainstream mom who loves Taylor Swift and football, and I have been avoiding nerd culture my whole life. Perhaps I’ve even been a little afraid of it. If you’re new here, this is how this works. I ask the noob questions, and my guest brings their passion and expert energy, and we try to figure out what it is I have been missing out on. It’s a little different today because the thing I’ve been missing out on is one of the most popular mainstream worldwide phenomena in the world. So I’ve invited one of the most popular mainstream worldwide phenomenon guests to nerd-ify me about The Traitors. He is the editor in chief of Entertainment Weekly. He is a performer in Miscast: Right Singer Wrong Song. Next show starring him coming up May seventeenth here in Los Angeles. And he’s one of my dear friends — I couldn’t love him more. Friend of the podcast, Patrick Gomez.
Patrick Gomez
You’re the best hype woman in the world, Mandy.
Mandy Kaplan
Oh — shoot, can we start over? I forgot to say supermodel.
Patrick Gomez
Of course, anytime. Let’s add more, let’s add more.
Mandy Kaplan
Right? So I had all these grand plans. I was like, I’m gonna wear my hood up and reveal myself to you and you’re gonna scream and we’re gonna be the Traitors. I was gonna have your name on a board that I flipped over and explained, but it’s a podcast. Nobody’s gonna see any of that.
Patrick Gomez
Well, I would have appreciated it, but your pink sweater is a good substitute.
Mandy Kaplan
I hope so. I’m trying to bring the sunshine on a cold day in Los Angeles. What the hell is The Traitors? Why does everybody love this show? Why do you love this show?
Patrick Gomez
The short answer is I don’t know. It is a show that should not work, at least in my opinion. It is basically watching people play Werewolf or Mafia — if you’re familiar with that game — where you are in a room with a bunch of people and some of them have been designated the werewolf or the mafia members and they’re killing people in the room in secret and you’ve got to try and figure out who they are. That should not work as a TV show, but I think it comes down to the casting and the sincerity with which they commit to the bit. They are really looking for these killers — or in this case, traitors. It just works because people start to get paranoid, and in that paranoia comes fantastic television.
Mandy Kaplan
Well, I can’t believe how seriously these people take it. And in America, the American version is all reality TV stars.
Patrick Gomez
Correct. It didn’t start that way. The first season was half reality stars and half newcomers to TV.
Mandy Kaplan
Regular people.
Patrick Gomez
Correct. And they do have a version for the US coming that is only regular people. That one will air on NBC versus the celebrity edition, which will continue to air on Peacock.
Mandy Kaplan
On the Peacock.
Patrick Gomez
On the Peacock.
Mandy Kaplan
So one of my essential problems with this bizarre cast of characters they have on season four — that’s the one we’re breaking down for you — spoilers will be abundant. So if you’re behind, you can pause this podcast. You can go back and listen to Patrick’s other episodes about Charmed and Survivor on Make Me a Nerd — wonderful episodes — and then come back and join us when you’re caught up on The Traitors. But this bizarre lineup of characters includes Lisa Rinna, Michael Rapaport, Johnny Weir and Tara Lipinski — you know, Olympic gold medalists — and some people I’ve never heard of that have, you know, on the chyrons it says “from Survivor,” “from Temptation Island” or something like that. I don’t know these people, but I know they’re all on TV and I know they all seemingly have money, and they are playing for money on this show, not for charity. Is that correct? What say you, Patrick Gomez?
Patrick Gomez
That is correct. It is one of the interesting things, because most celebrity editions of shows have them playing for charity. Here they are playing for themselves. And I know that in some cases they obviously get appearance fees. I know that’s the case with this show as well. So they’re making a good amount of money just walking onto set on day one. But yes, this is not for charity. They are there for themselves. And honestly, I think that probably makes them play harder than they would otherwise. But it is very funny — and I’m sure we’ll get into it — that some of them walk in and have no idea what’s going on, and then others walk in and they are super fans of the show and are running circles around those who are like, “Who’s Alan Cumming and what are we doing here?”
Mandy Kaplan
Well, since you brought up Alan Cumming, let’s go for it. Don’t hate me, because I love Alan Cumming as an actor, as a musical theater performer, as a human being. I’ve seen him in interviews — he’s wonderful. But this character of himself that he’s playing, this caricature, with the exaggerated accent and the exaggerated drama — it wears thin fast for me.
Patrick Gomez
It’s interesting because I do think that he has been a part of the draw for people in the sense that they just think he’s so ridiculous and over the top. The way he says “murder” and all these things have become part of how people discuss the show. Everyone uses the words that he accentuates. And the wardrobe has become its own talking point — not just for him, but from what I understand they don’t have stylists that work with them from the show. They are all given a prompt — all the contestants are given a prompt of like, “We’re going for this sort of vibe in the castle.” So if you notice, they all are kind of really dressed to the nines.
Mandy Kaplan
Yes!
Patrick Gomez
They must have their glam squads with them.
Mandy Kaplan
Oh, I’m sure they have their individual ones. Like, individually they are coming prepared, but the show doesn’t work with them — or at least not with most of them. I’m sure maybe some of the ones that don’t have stylists are asking for help. But they do — at least according to interviews and sources — do all their own hair and makeup while they’re there, which for some of them I’m sure is—
Mandy Kaplan
No, no, no. I don’t believe this. They look so glamorized.
Patrick Gomez
But if you also notice, some of the housewives especially are wearing sunglasses a lot, and I think that might have to do with it. Not only are they doing their own hair and makeup, but the structure of the show is: they all arrive for breakfast, then they go do a challenge, then they go into the round table. And they’re wearing these very glamorous outfits for breakfast and the round table, and then they’re in workout gear for the challenges. They do film all of that in a day. They get up, get ready for breakfast, get into glam and makeup, then get into their workout clothes, then get back into those same glam clothes.
Mandy Kaplan
Really?
Patrick Gomez
On social media, a lot of people have been like, “I don’t understand how this show is filmed, because there’s no way they do this.” And the cast members have said, “No, it’s exactly what we do. We get ready twice.” Which is crazy. But Alan sets the tone for all of that. And I think the over-the-topness, while not for you, does help the show make sense, because the show is ridiculous. They are playing a children’s game in a castle.
Mandy Kaplan
It’s in a castle in Scotland, right?
Patrick Gomez
Correct. And it’s actually very close to where Alan lives, which is very convenient for him. But I think that helps the show initially find itself, because it is over the top. And these people are accusing each other based on no actual facts that they are traitors.
Mandy Kaplan
Right. Which is how this game works. I used to play Murder with Mandy Fabian, and I get that when you’re at a party with your friends, one of you is like, “I’ll be the detective and I’ll put on a voice. Which one of you was in the dining room?” But even at a party, after ten minutes, you’re like, “Drop the voice and just get to the good parts.” And he never drops the voice.
Patrick Gomez
No, he certainly does not. He commits to the bit, and it’s not for everyone. But I do think that it helps the cast go for it too — like, okay, I’m committing to this as well. And the whole show is ridiculous, so he’s just like, “I’m gonna be ridiculous too.”
Mandy Kaplan
It’s not unlike roleplay or Dungeons and Dragons in that respect, right? It’s these made-up circumstances.
Patrick Gomez
That is correct.
Mandy Kaplan
You are improvising, you are embracing your new reality at every step. If you are told, “Tonight there’ll be a cocktail party and one of you will be murdered,” you’re just like, “Now that’s my new reality. I gotta roll with that.” Roleplay, LARPing — I’m on a rabbit hole here.
Patrick Gomez
Look at you.
Mandy Kaplan
Yeah. But I get the nerd appeal for the show. I get why this has seemingly appealed to just a wide swath of people. Obviously reality junkies like you love it, like me, but I could also see real nerds getting into it.
Patrick Gomez
Totally, because you get into the strategy, you get into the gameplay. And I think that’s one of the genius things about the casting of this American version — I don’t watch the Real Housewives, but now I am a fan of and know a bunch of housewives because they’ve been on this show. Same with Love Island, same with some of the other shows, all in the NBCU universe. So it’s also great cross-promotion. There’s a woman who was on season two and three—
Mandy Kaplan
Wait — Survivor. They have Survivor people.
Patrick Gomez
Correct. It’s not all NBCU, but a lot of them are.
Mandy Kaplan
Okay, makes sense.
Patrick Gomez
And I think it’s really smart because I also never watched Below Deck, and to be honest it hasn’t gotten me to the point that I’m actually going to watch the show — or at least not yet. But there’s a woman on season two and three, Kate, from Below Deck. And I was like, “Well, now I want to see everything this woman has ever done.” So I think it does a good job of that.
Mandy Kaplan
And it appeals to the nerd approach, which is like deep diving and offshooting and really going down these rabbit holes. That’s how nerds approach things, the things they love. It’s obsessive and it’s all encompassing. And I will say, I somehow managed to compare The Hunger Games to Below Deck last week. I swear hand to God it made sense when I did it.
Patrick Gomez
Sure, sure, sure.
Mandy Kaplan
So if you don’t believe me, everyone, go have a listen to the Hunger Games episodes — the book, not the movie — because I did two episodes with Mona Chatterjee about The Hunger Games. Yeah, I want to talk about this cast. This seems to be a combination of trash and then really classy people that I look up to, like Kristen Kish, because I’m a big Top Chef fan.
Patrick Gomez
Love Kristen.
Mandy Kaplan
Have you met her?
Patrick Gomez
Yes, and she’s just as lovely in person. She has a viral moment this season where she used this massive bread-cutting knife to put butter on her toast, and it went viral because everyone was like, “Why are you using that?” And she had this fantastic defense of why she was using this knife. I love her so much.
Mandy Kaplan
Well, first of all, sidebar — Patrick Gomez has appeared on Top Chef.
Patrick Gomez
I have been fortunate enough to get to go to Restaurant Wars, an opening season street fair, and Restaurant Wars a second time. It is a fantastic experience. I can’t wait for the new season coming up in March, I think.
Mandy Kaplan
Oh, I think it’s April, but whenever it is, we play Top Chef Fantasy, so I’m very excited. But these people on The Traitors take it so extremely seriously. And it makes me question its veracity when they’re sobbing and getting into fights and screaming at each other. But then I realize it’s a TV show. Honestly, Tara Lipinski is just too kind and sweet and calm for this world. Mark — what’s his last name? The dancer?
Patrick Gomez
Dallas.
Mandy Kaplan
He doesn’t belong on a reality show. So normal, so logical — it doesn’t make for great television. What makes for great television, unfortunately, is Michael Rapaport, who made me want to barf and punch my TV all the time. But that’s what you get with reality TV. They cast this random mix of people.
Patrick Gomez
And you need the mix.
Mandy Kaplan
And here’s one thing I want to ask you, expert. Do their reps call NBC and say, “You can have Lisa Rinna — sure, she’ll do it — but she has to be a traitor”?
Patrick Gomez
Oh, I guarantee you — I mean, no one would ever come out and say it — but I guarantee you yes, that definitely happens.
Mandy Kaplan
You just made me so happy.
Patrick Gomez
And I think a lot of it is the casting and the producers saying, “Let’s try and get this many housewives and this many gamers.” What’s interesting is — I’ve been on here talking about Survivor, which is about to enter season fifty, or at the time people are listening to this, we will be in season fifty. I’ve watched since season one, and you forget how the verbiage and the lore of the show is established because it’s now so many years in and it just is what it is. You forget that at one time Jeff Probst said things for the first time. And because we’re only in season four of The Traitors, it’s been so interesting to see what verbiage the casts latch on to. So we now have “the housewives.” There’s always enough housewives that they’re their own little cluster. And then we have what they’ve called “the gamers” — all the ones from the competitive reality shows. Survivor, Big Brother — the strategic ones, the people that come in and have played a game where there is strategy and physical competitions and all that sort of stuff. And then you have increasingly the non-gamers — Ron Funches and, as you just mentioned, Michael Rapaport — people who are just actors that aren’t from the reality world. And I agree with you that Mark has been kind of a non-entity on most of the season. But what’s interesting is — at least in terms of how much they’ve talked about it — he is the biggest super fan of the show.
Mandy Kaplan
So maybe he’s intentionally flying under the radar so he doesn’t get voted off?
Patrick Gomez
I think there’s part of that, and I also think just to your point, naturally he’s kind of not a big dramatic person. So I think it’s partially his personality, but partially strategy. He came in with like a full notebook of exactly how he was gonna play it. And — spoiler alert again, as you mentioned — he makes it very far.
Mandy Kaplan
Yes. The last episode we got — have you seen it all the way through? Did you get advanced copies? Because you’re very fancy.
Patrick Gomez
No, so I’ve seen everything but the finale at this point.
Mandy Kaplan
Is that what I’ve seen? Last night they showed it on Peacock and it said “Welcome to the Semifinals” or something, and I was like, “What?”
Patrick Gomez
Correct. So next week is the finale.
Mandy Kaplan
Oh wow. That feels fast. I feel like they could milk it for more.
Patrick Gomez
The endgame is very fast, because it ultimately gets a little repetitive when there’s that few people. Survivor’s the same way. You go from like six people to one in one episode, and it’ll be the same here.
Mandy Kaplan
That was not a complaint, but something I pointed out. I had Jair on and we did The Great Pottery Throwdown. It starts with twelve potters or something, and it gets down to three potters and the episodes are still over an hour. How is that possible? They just stretch and milk it, and he schooled me — like, “Well, that’s television and as an editor, that’s what we gotta do.” And I get it, totally. But I prefer fast-paced. This show is quite fast-paced and multifaceted. But one facet that’s missing is that they don’t show or talk about the food they’re eating. That’s how I know it’s not an Andy Cohen production, because he insists that the housewives order on camera and show their food on camera so we always know what they’re eating.
Patrick Gomez
Although — this season there has been a lot of chatter, because in the first few episodes they are very eager to eat the salmon available — the lox — at the beginning of breakfast. And if you’re one of the later people to come into the breakfast room, usually it’s gone. And people have been upset that there’s no salmon for them. But you’re right, they don’t spend a lot of time on the food — except sometimes it actually comes into play. In season three, there’s always at least one challenge where a group of contestants are left at the site of the challenge while everyone else goes back to the castle. And there was a huge fight because everyone that went back to the castle first ate all the food. So by the time everyone else got back — wet and cold and hungry — there wasn’t enough food left, and they were so mad that no one had waited. So sometimes the food comes into play.
Mandy Kaplan
Right, but Kristen’s a chef.
Patrick Gomez
She said the food was awful. On her social media she’s talked about the fact that she was constantly craving cooking. She was like, “The food was so bad, that’s why I’m constantly making toast or trying to figure out how to make things.” They have a little candy snack bar in the kitchen, and she was like, “I was trying to figure out how to melt candy onto other things.” She just needed to cook, and she was so sick of the food they were serving, because again, they’re in the middle of nowhere in a castle in Scotland. Everything they’re eating is basically catering, which in the middle of nowhere is not going to be super fresh.
Mandy Kaplan
How long are they there?
Patrick Gomez
I believe roughly an episode is a day, so they’re really only there about two and a half to three weeks at most. They do this as quickly as possible.
Mandy Kaplan
I would imagine they have companies they’re running and businesses to get back to. And Donna Kelsey has a wedding to plan. Did I get her name right?
Patrick Gomez
Oh, Mama Kelsey.
Mandy Kaplan
Yeah.
Patrick Gomez
Mama Kelsey. She was an interesting choice.
Mandy Kaplan
She was adorable.
Patrick Gomez
There are also rumors that she did not participate in the challenges.
Mandy Kaplan
Well, she wasn’t on long enough.
Patrick Gomez
But there were challenges every episode, and there are people that have gone back and watched, and they’re like, “If you watch, she’s conveniently never in the footage of actually participating in the challenges.”
Mandy Kaplan
Mm-hmm.
Patrick Gomez
Which I find fascinating, if true.
Mandy Kaplan
Well, she shouldn’t have to. During one heavy challenge, there were some people just sitting out and I wrote, “I would jump off the thing and help my team push.” Why wouldn’t that be allowed? It just seems obnoxious to sit there.
Patrick Gomez
Yeah. Though you’ve also got to imagine that most of these people are not used to this sort of physical activity and are probably used to being pampered and taking advantage of the moment. But especially early on, there is value in being good at the challenges because there’s a term they use: “I don’t care if you’re a traitor — you’re a bad faithful, and therefore I don’t care if you’re here or not.” There’s a moment with Michael Rapaport where they’re just like, “I don’t care if you’re a traitor or not. You are just distracting and you’re a bad faithful, so you gotta go no matter what.” And being bad at challenges is part of that. If you’re slacking, then you gotta go, because I want the prize pot to be huge.
Mandy Kaplan
Right. I’d rather have somebody young and virile. Now you threw out the word “faithful,” and that is the term on the show. And I would like to say — the most faithful producer, Pete Wright, makes Make Me a Nerd for TruStory FM. And if you enjoyed my theme song, I want to talk about the music on The Traitors a little bit, but my theme song is “Wonderstruck” by Jane and the Boy. And if I were in a castle, I would want Pete Wright on my side. He is just the best. The word “faithful” is always so funny — they’re like, “I’m a faithful, I’m a faithful.” I got used to it, but it’s definitely not grammatically correct. It’s one of those things you were saying about Jeff Probst, you know.
Patrick Gomez
Yep, it is a terminology and you just kind of learn the language of the show. And like I said, that’s been a really cool thing. Most of the shows I’m a fan of in the competitive reality space have been around long enough that you forget they had to have origins. It’s been really fun to watch this show figure itself out. Because it took them a few seasons to even make the challenges worth watching in the sense that they used to just be there to increase the money in the prize pot, but there was no real game reason for them to exist outside of that.
Mandy Kaplan
Oh, so did they add shields and such?
Patrick Gomez
They added shields. They added that the traitors have to do X, Y, and Z during this. I think they were wary of just becoming The Mole, which is this other reality show that originally aired on ABC and then, after a long hiatus, had a new version on Netflix for a couple seasons. Similar concept — except there was one person who was there to sabotage the missions and got money for every mission they sabotaged. And I think The Traitors was trying hard not to be that. They’ve now found a way to add drama and stakes to the challenge beyond just earning money — the shields that can protect people. So then it’s like, “Oh, I took a shield instead of money — that’s selfish.” Or are you taking it because you’re a faithful and need the protection? Are you taking it because you’re a traitor and you want to make sure nobody else has the shield?
Mandy Kaplan
Well, what would you do? Because there was one challenge where they said if no one takes it then you all survive, but if somebody takes it then there’s a murder. What would you do?
Patrick Gomez
That’s where the gamers — I believe it was Natalie, who is a Survivor winner and two-time Survivor player, first time she played she won — that’s where the gamers I think really shine. Because the housewives are just like, “Well, I don’t know, I guess I won’t take a shield.” And then some of the other people were like, “I have to have one.” And I thought it was really great that Natalie chimed in and said, “No one take it. If you do, then you’re the next one out.” In that case, you have to go with that plan, because if you betray everyone, you’ll be the next one out. So in that situation, I would have had to go along with the plan. There is a UK version — which is not the celebrity version, it’s regular people — and they had a similar situation and it plays out extremely differently. What’s fun is that they film it in the same castle and reuse the challenges. So if you’re watching both, it’s so fascinating to see how a challenge played out so differently with another cast. It’s like a bizarre parallel world. The host there, Claudia, oh my god — she’s great too. She’s a really famous UK TV host and she’s very different from Alan, but equally fabulous.
Mandy Kaplan
Gotcha. The challenges are my least favorite part. You know, watching people run around and get muddy and find things in the ground —
Patrick Gomez
You’re not alone there.
Mandy Kaplan
I get it, and they go on quite long. I would rather watch all the arguing at the round table. But then again, that’s my taste. I like a reunion on a housewives show rather than when they’re on a vacation.
Patrick Gomez
They do reunions with these casts too, and Andy Cohen hosts them, which isn’t my favorite decision, but they are epic and people do not hold back.
Mandy Kaplan
Is that also on Peacock?
Patrick Gomez
Correct. Yep.
Mandy Kaplan
Oh, thank God. So there is an official podcast and they put an ad in the front of it. I want to know if you listen to the official podcast. And then I thought — if this is Patrick Gomez, do you host the official podcast?
Patrick Gomez
I would host it in a heartbeat.
Mandy Kaplan
Right?
Patrick Gomez
But no. They have two former contestants — a former Drag Race star and a former Survivor star who have been on seasons of The Traitors — they host it. And it’s really funny to hear their takes because they come from having actually played the game. It’s Bob the Drag Queen and Boston Rob, and they do not hold back.
Mandy Kaplan
I know Boston Rob because of you.
Patrick Gomez
There you go.
Mandy Kaplan
Yes.
Patrick Gomez
Survivor All-Star. He does not hold back and certainly Bob does not either. And it’s really interesting to hear their takes having gone through the experience themselves.
Mandy Kaplan
Yeah. I might check out the podcast. When I see that come up I’m like, “Well, maybe I don’t need to learn more” — but maybe I do.
Patrick Gomez
There’s also really fun content on The Traitors’ social media accounts where they show the murdered — or banished — contestants learning who the traitors are.
Mandy Kaplan
Oh!
Patrick Gomez
And that’s one element I wish they put on the show — even as the credits are playing or whatever. You’d love to see those reactions, but they do put them on social. They’re really fun to watch because sometimes they’re like, “I knew it,” and other times they’re just so shocked.
Mandy Kaplan
Oh, that’s cool. Well, speaking of podcasts — if you would like to support this one, I would be very grateful if you would leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts and write a review. You can write your questions, comments, thoughts. I will give you a shout out on the air. And you can get me on socials — on TikTok at Mandy Miscast and on Instagram at Mandy_Kaplan_Klavens, both with K’s. And there’s a membership if you go to makemeanerd.com/join — you can be one of my faithfuls, and that gets you your episodes ad-free and early. Thank you very much in advance. The music on the show is interesting. There’s this over-the-top score that is so dramatic. And then there’s this killer song they play at the round table — “His Body Lies” by Astræa. Do you know what I’m talking about?
Patrick Gomez
Is it?
Mandy Kaplan
That amazing song. And then I read that in the UK version it’s “The Hanging Tree” from The Hunger Games.
Patrick Gomez
Yes. The music is so funny because some of it seems to fit perfectly. And then every so often my husband Matt — who you’ve had on the podcast talking about James Bond, not DeGroote —
Mandy Kaplan
James Bond, not DeGroote.
Patrick Gomez
We always laugh and say when it doesn’t fit. Like, “Whose daughter sang this song that works on the show?” Because sometimes it is just bonkers the music choices they have. But when it works, it works, and it just feeds into the whole Scottish castle murder mystery element. It’s hit or miss for sure with the music.
Mandy Kaplan
“His Body Lies” is almost like a dark Enya. It’s like creepy and—
Patrick Gomez
Oh my god, a hundred percent. That is the perfect way to describe it. Dark and dreamy.
Mandy Kaplan
And I’m so jealous you get to watch with Matt, because I watch alone. Jair said, “Should we watch The Traitors?” And I was like, “I don’t think you’ll like it.” He does not get into this kind of thing — it’s very over the top. It’s not really a strategy game, or I shouldn’t say “not really.” But a lot of it is about the looks, who’s forming an alliance with who. It’s very typical reality show stuff, I think.
Patrick Gomez
Though it’s always interesting — I think the show doesn’t lean into some of the strategy that’s happening because it breaks the conceit of the show. In the penultimate episode of the season, they started to talk about it a little bit, where those that are still around start to say, “Why am I still here? Am I friends with a traitor and they’ve been keeping me around because they know I’ll vote with them, which protects them?” And I think that there is a lot of stuff that either they’re not saying out loud, or they’re saying out loud but the show isn’t showing us, because it kind of breaks the premise. Sometimes you don’t actually want to get a traitor out. If you’re convinced someone is a traitor, you want to buddy up with them and say, “Let’s work together.” And then you cut them at the very end — “Sorry, I thought you were a traitor this whole time. Thanks for getting me here. Bye. I want the money.” Sandra, who’s won Survivor twice, was on it, and she figured that because there are so many housewives, at least one housewife has to be a traitor. And she was right. So she was like, “I’m gonna buddy up with the housewives because they stick together, and I know there’s a traitor in the mix and they’re gonna protect me.” And it worked. She lasted a really long time because they saw her as an ally. So there’s a lot of that — because the show wants you on camera saying “I want to get a traitor,” but half the time they don’t actually want to get a traitor. They just want to live to see the next day.
Mandy Kaplan
Well, also — and I don’t mean to be cynical and pull the curtain back — but there are appearance fees. The longer you stay on, the more hits you’re gonna get on your social media, the more brand opportunities you’re gonna get. If you’re one and done, no one remembers you were on The Traitors. So they want to stay on for myriad reasons.
Patrick Gomez
Yeah. Though I’m so glad, because in season three, Dorinda from the Housewives was the first one out, and I think they anticipated that she would be a big character. People love her. And then she was first out, so they had her come back for season four. And thankfully she lasted a lot longer.
Mandy Kaplan
If I say this to you, do you know what I mean? “Clip.” Do you know that’s her meme?
Patrick Gomez
Yes.
Mandy Kaplan
She is a giant personality, mostly because she was drinking a lot on the Housewives — very intoxicated all the time, I thought. But she is a huge personality. She was quite muted here.
Patrick Gomez
I think the housewives get there and there’s two things. One — we’re used to seeing that. I mean, Lisa Rinna said this — “I play a version of Lisa Rinna on The Housewives, and that’s not all I am.” And I think there’s a little bit of that where their guard is down. And I also think that for the most part, even if they’re super smart, they’re not super fans of the show, so they’re a little lost. They’re trying to figure it out and they’re like, “Oh, but you’re my friend.” And it’s like — yeah, but the name of the game is to lie to each other.
Mandy Kaplan
Right.
Patrick Gomez
So I think — like Sheree from Atlanta was on last season and she admitted, “I have no idea what’s going on.” They would show her being like, “So tonight we have to do what?” They had to repeatedly explain the rules to her. So I think there’s a little bit of deer-in-headlights going on with some of them. Because they’re just like, “Oh, appearance fees and a trip to Scotland to a castle — this will be great.” And then they show up and they’re like, “Oh wait — this is real? We’re actually doing this? It’s not all fake?”
Mandy Kaplan
So I have a question that I think — we can come at it from both a fan perspective or you might have insider knowledge. Are they allowed to be off camera together ever?
Patrick Gomez
I don’t know a hundred percent, but I would imagine no.
Mandy Kaplan
That makes sense, right? Almost like a jury being sequestered.
Patrick Gomez
Correct. And when they are off camera but together, usually the rules on these shows are you can’t speak. In fact, there was big drama ahead of Survivor season forty-nine — two people got cut from the cast like a day before they started filming because they were caught talking amongst themselves. And supposedly there were even more than two of them, but they only bring two alternates out, so they could only replace two of the four or five they caught. Theoretically it’s the same on The Traitors — they’re not allowed to talk unless they’re on camera.
Mandy Kaplan
I find that very interesting. Here’s my mainstream recommendation for you and anyone else — I listened to an audiobook called You Wanna Be on Top, a memoir of makeovers, manipulation, and not becoming America’s Next Top Model by Sara Hartshorne. I wanted to make sure to give her a shout out because she revealed that they didn’t let the models talk. They would put them in a holding room and they weren’t allowed to speak often. But that makes no sense, because there’s no strategy to America’s Next Top Model. On The Traitors, I completely get it. Johnny and Tara would have been like, “Do you swear to me you’re not a traitor? Great, me neither.” That makes total sense — if you happen to bump into each other in the hall, you are not to speak.
Patrick Gomez
Yeah. And I think even on something like America’s Next Top Model, two things. One — they want you to be stir crazy, because you’ll be more emotional. If you’re sitting there in your own thoughts, you’re going to be more in your head, and that’s going to make you more neurotic and therefore make more interesting television. And two — they don’t want anything to happen off camera that might play into something that’s on camera, because they’ve then missed it. Two people get into a fight off camera and that plays into the episode — they don’t want to have you just explain it. They want to be able to show it. Survivor does the same thing going to and from a challenge or tribal council. In early seasons they would just let them talk. And then they realized they were missing gameplay, because all these conversations were happening off camera where people were mad they didn’t vote the way they said they would. So quickly — I think by season one or two — they realized, “We need to make sure they don’t talk at all while in transit, because there’s stuff that’s gonna bleed into the game.”
Mandy Kaplan
Can we talk? We need to talk about Michael.
Patrick Gomez
Oh, do we have to?
Mandy Kaplan
Do you remember that movie We Need to Talk About Kevin?
Patrick Gomez
Yes.
Mandy Kaplan
Okay.
Patrick Gomez
Well, I’d rather watch that movie on repeat than have to watch him anymore.
Mandy Kaplan
He was so problematic on so many levels. I almost feel like they took just an angry, triggered psycho and plunked him in the game, and it didn’t make for good television. He was Michael Rapaport, by the way.
Patrick Gomez
And sometimes we love a villain. Sometimes we love to hate someone.
Mandy Kaplan
Yes.
Patrick Gomez
He just made it not fun. He took it too far in many, many ways. It was watching somebody that was just angry. I was glad to see he was self-aware enough to know that’s what he’s like and to know that he doesn’t have the self-control to stop himself, even though he knows it. But every week I was like, “Can he just go home?” Because, as they said at the round table week after week, he just sucked the air out of the room in a way that made me not want to watch. I will say I have friends that are super fans of the show and they actually liked and enjoyed how crazy he made things, but I did not.
Mandy Kaplan
They’re wrong, and I need you to tell them that. I’m trying to find the quote — did Michael just say, “If anyone can keep a secret, it’s Colton”?
Patrick Gomez
Yeah. And —
Mandy Kaplan
Right? Did that mean what I think it meant?
Patrick Gomez
So — for those of you unfamiliar, Colton Underwood was on The Bachelorette as a contestant and was then chosen to be the Bachelor for a season. After his time on The Bachelor, he came out as gay and now is happily married with a kid and doing well. But in the interim after the show, he did end up essentially stalking one of the women on the show. I think it was part of him going through the process of coming to peace with who he is, and that manifested in a very negative way toward one of the women.
Mandy Kaplan
When you came out, did you stalk someone?
Patrick Gomez
No.
Mandy Kaplan
Just out of curiosity.
Patrick Gomez
Not justifying it or saying that is a normal way to go through that process — just providing the timeline.
Mandy Kaplan
I’m just taking a poll.
Patrick Gomez
So Colton is now an out and proud, openly gay man, but lived with a secret for many, many years.
Mandy Kaplan
Uh-huh.
Patrick Gomez
And Michael said, “I think you’d be good at keeping a secret.” I can’t get into his heart or head to say he was a hundred percent referencing that, but having read his face once people started to accuse him of that, I do wonder if it was at the very least subconscious. Because he did seem to be like, “Wait, what are you even talking about? I can’t believe you just said that.” But regardless, it was awful. It was a horrible, horrible look.
Mandy Kaplan
I wonder if this will affect Michael’s relationship with Bravo, because I know he does Watch What Happens Live all the time, and he’s like a straight dude who likes to talk about the housewives, right?
Patrick Gomez
I just don’t know. It’s similar to He Who Shall Not Be Named, in my opinion. I think it’s water off a duck’s back with him. That’s so much his personality that people are just like, “Of course he said that sort of thing.” But it certainly wasn’t fun to watch, and I’m glad that if that had to be the straw that broke the camel’s back to get him out of there, I’m glad it did. Because I just hated watching him on this show.
Mandy Kaplan
Here’s how smart I am. I thought, “Why isn’t Rob voting for Candace? Wouldn’t it make sense to vote off a traitor? Then you’re the only traitor and you have a better chance of winning.” And then he did it. Right as I was thinking it — he heard me.
Patrick Gomez
He heard you.
Mandy Kaplan
Yeah.
Patrick Gomez
He’s played a fantastic game. At times it’s made me not like him, but I respect him as a game player. I also question the show in some instances, because I think he’s more strategic than the show is showing us. His actions I think are the right ones to get him to the end. Again, we’re recording this right before the finale. But they’ve never fully let him explain, because I think they want his actions to seem like a surprise. So when he voted out Lisa, they literally had Candace ask him in the turret — which is where the traitors go to have their private conversations and decide who they’re going to murder.
Mandy Kaplan
In their Handmaid’s Tale cloaks.
Patrick Gomez
Yes. She asks him, he goes, “I guess I have some explaining to do,” and she says, “Yes.” And then they give him like a half sentence — “She just had to go.” When I’m like, no, there was a lot more thought there.
Mandy Kaplan
Yeah.
Patrick Gomez
And I don’t know if it’s because it peels the curtain back too much. I have to imagine — and they’ve never allowed him to say this — that he was thinking, “There’s no way I’m going to the end with two housewives, because they’re gonna just get rid of me so they split the money two ways instead of three.” I have to imagine that was in his head — “I want to get somebody in here that I can control versus being the odd man out in a group of three.” But they never let him fully explain that. And even when he turned on Candace.
Mandy Kaplan
I guess my prediction was about Lisa — the first time he voted for a housewife.
Patrick Gomez
He never fully explained.
Mandy Kaplan
Well, I still want to take credit for Rob’s moves somehow, retroactively.
Patrick Gomez
I just wish they were showing a little bit more, because I think he’s super smart and strategic, and I feel like they’ve been not showing us all of his thought process. I want a little bit more.
Mandy Kaplan
Yep. So I don’t want to get too deep because this is a fun, salacious, fluffy show. But friend of the show and past guest, Johnny Lee Jr., commented that he finds it problematic that they have essentially voted out all the people of color except for Eric.
Patrick Gomez
I find it very interesting, though, if you really look at who spearheaded most of those votes early on — it was Candace. And I can’t get in her heart and head, but I almost wonder if strategically she was thinking, “If I’m the last Black person left, they will be less likely to vote me out because they don’t want to look bad.” Because she spearheaded most of those either murders or banishments. She was the one going after Ron, Ron, Ron. She was the one who voted out the housewife who went first. And then I realized — she’s behind it. And I do wonder if that was part of her strategy.
Mandy Kaplan
Well, that could be.
Patrick Gomez
And I do wonder if Mark is convinced that it is Rob, but is waiting to take him out at the very, very end. Again, it’s interesting that we’re talking about this before the finale — we’ll have the answers soon. But at this point in the game it’s like, “How much are you voting because you actually think someone’s a traitor versus how much are you voting because you’re already thinking three steps ahead about how do I get to the end and then how do I manage this?” I can’t imagine the traitors don’t murder Johnny or Tara, because you’d want to go to the end with both of them — they’re never going to turn on each other.
Mandy Kaplan
And Johnny might still be wandering in the forest, unable to find anything. That was pretty funny. So — here’s the last point I want to make. I don’t know if it’s the last point, but I want to say — about the money. It’s all fun and games and you’re watching, and then a person named Tiffany — I can’t remember who Tiffany was. Do you want to help me?
Patrick Gomez
Tiffany is a Big Brother player. I love her so much. Tiffany Mitchell — she’s also been on The Challenge. She’s great. I love her.
Mandy Kaplan
Okay, but she said, “I genuinely need this money. I’m taking care of my son,” and I think she said something about sending her son to college — that she can’t afford it.
Patrick Gomez
Mm.
Mandy Kaplan
And my heart broke. And here’s Lisa Rinna, who we know is the QVC queen and has money to burn, trying to take money out of the hands of Tiffany. And that feels problematic to me. That makes me uncomfortable.
Patrick Gomez
Yeah, I mean — that’s America, I guess, but yeah. It’s also interesting how that comes into play on some of these shows. On Survivor Fifty, one of the contestants just had a kid and he was like, “I’m actually not going to say I just had a kid, because that makes me seem more sympathetic to the jury.” Because in that show, a jury of eliminated contestants votes for the winner at the end. And oftentimes people with sob stories get voted out because the remaining people say, “If I’m sitting next to them, everyone’s gonna vote for them.”
Mandy Kaplan
Right. Makes total sense — he has a kid, yeah.
Patrick Gomez
So he’s a new dad, he needs money for the kid, and you know, that stuff happens. I will say — in season one of UK Traitors, and this is a spoiler but it’s just too good not to talk about — the very first person banished is banished because after the traitors were chosen and they all took off their blindfolds, they all cheers to the faithful, and she did not cheers. And so that was the reasoning everyone gave. The part I’m leaving out is that she only has one hand and the water glass was not positioned for her to grab it easily. And she was on the show because she wanted to get money to get herself a prosthetic.
Mandy Kaplan
Oh my God. Oh my God.
Patrick Gomez
It was the saddest thing in the world and you just have to laugh because it’s so ridiculous and awful. But yes — the sob stories oftentimes are reasons for people to vote someone out, because they know they can’t compete with that.
Mandy Kaplan
Did we get through everything? Am I missing some grand point about The Traitors that you need to get off your chest?
Patrick Gomez
Just that it’s so fun. And I think the thing it brings that I didn’t expect is the breaks between episodes. If you’re watching weekly, or even if you’re not, you can pause it and really think about the strategy. Versus in a game of Mafia that you’re playing with your friends, it’s all happening very quickly in one evening and there’s not enough time to be like, “Is that the right choice? What should I do?” I think that’s one of the really fun things about this show, and about Survivor too — which I’ve said is like a book club. We pause the show and talk with our friends: “Did they make the right choice?” And there’s so much opportunity for that here, because there’s the banishments and the murders. Did the traitors make the right choice? Did the faithful make the right choice? There’s so much to dive into and savor. And I think that’s why people love it. And because they bring in the Housewives fans, the Love Island fans, the Michael Rapaport fans if there are any — there are a lot of people that have never watched competitive reality shows who love this show. I’m so glad it’s bringing people into the fold and making them curious. I have so many friends who are like, “I’ve never really watched The Housewives, but now I want to because I love Vedra or I love Dorinda.” And a lot of people are saying, “I never watched Survivor, but I loved Natalie, so now I want to go watch her seasons.” I love that it’s growing the reality fandom.
Mandy Kaplan
And where does this rank for you? There’s Survivor and Big Brother, right?
Patrick Gomez
And Amazing Race.
Mandy Kaplan
Those are your—
Patrick Gomez
And then you get to the others that are slightly different — like Top Chef and all of those. Right now, The Traitors is like the new shiny thing. Alan Cumming was the first person to unseat RuPaul as reality show host at the Emmys, because it’s the new shiny thing. That elevates it, because it’s appointment television and it’s gonna be spoiled if you don’t watch it as soon as it drops at nine PM Eastern, six PM Pacific on Peacock. Last night I had the penultimate episode of season four air, and I had dodgeball that I had to get to, and I ran home early from work so that we could watch before I had to go, because if not, we might not watch until the next day and it would get spoiled. So in terms of appointment television, it might actually be number one. Survivor and Amazing Race and Big Brother are probably the legacy shows, so they’re a tough comparison. But I think The Traitors ranks number one in appointment television, and probably three or four in terms of what I think is the best that’s on right now.
Mandy Kaplan
Fantastic. Thank you for making me a nerd about it. I get it. I needed as much distraction and healthy things to focus on in this dark, crazy time. So this is perfect. It just takes you completely out of your head and out of the world. And I appreciate you bringing this to me.
Patrick Gomez
Yeah. And the one thing I’ll add to that point is just the gorgeous location shots. The show is also just so beautifully shot. So if you’re looking for a good distraction, yes.
Mandy Kaplan
They find a lot of swamps.
Patrick Gomez
Lots of swamps.
Mandy Kaplan
Anything you need to plug — people can read your stuff at Entertainment Weekly.
Patrick Gomez
Yeah, we do a lot of Traitors coverage at Entertainment Weekly, so you can find that at EW.com and on Entertainment Weekly’s socials. We talk to the eliminated contestants and post some of their video interviews. And just can’t wait to continue watching and covering this show. I was fortunate enough to do an interview with Alan for our Pride issue into 2025. You can find that out in the world — the motion covers are just gorgeous, and he talks a lot about the diversity of the cast and also what it was like, plus all the fantastic theater and all the things that I know you and I love aside from competitive reality. It’s a great piece, so if you want to seek that out — and thank you for having me, Mandy.
Mandy Kaplan
I will never banish you. I will never murder you. I love you. Thank you for doing this.
Patrick Gomez
With a Tara and a Johnny.
Mandy Kaplan
Yes, we are the Tara and Johnny. Thank you everyone for listening. Until next time.
