Matthew Fox
Welcome back to the Marvel Movie Minute, a weekly podcast which we assemble to explore the films of the Marvel Cinematic Universe five minutes at a time. In this, our ninth season, we’re looking at Captain America: The Winter Soldier. I’m Matthew Fox.
Pete Wright
I’m Pete Wright.
Kyle Olson
I’m Kyle Olson.
Rob Kubasko
Hey, and I’m Rob Kubasko.
Matthew Fox
And today we’re talking about minutes thirty-one through thirty-five, which begins with Nick Fury personally raising the cost of auto insurance in the entire DC metropolitan area, and ends with Steve responding to the music of his childhood with fear and suspicion.
Pete Wright
Okay, that’s the other—
Matthew Fox
Friends, what did we think of these five minutes?
Kyle Olson
So we’re in the midst of the car chase — and Rob, I know you’ve been out for a little bit — the Hydra agents are pursuing Nick Fury through the streets of Seattle. I’m sorry, Cleveland. I’m sorry, Washington, DC.
Rob Kubasko
In these minutes, my continuing fascination with what an homage this movie is to 90s films. This is literally an homage to the ambush scene in Clear and Present Danger from 1994. Honestly, it is unbelievable. In case you haven’t seen it, you all should. It is used by the Secret Service as a training film to this day, on the threats that agents may face. You can look this up. If you haven’t seen the Harrison Ford film, it is incredibly high tension — almost a film within a film — because it has tension setting up that you know something bad’s going to happen. Really bad things happen. And then there is a resolution. I guarantee you that is how they built this scene, because all three of those things happen. It’s glorious. It’s amazing.
Pete Wright
I don’t remember the pavement laser cutter in that movie.
Rob Kubasko
Well, when he takes the car through the back alley and ends up — it’s Harrison Ford’s version.
Pete Wright
Yeah, that’s pavement laser cutters.
Matthew Fox
Look, Jack Ryan became more and more powerful as those books went on. So him becoming basically Captain America — that I can believe.
Kyle Olson
True. Yeah, tracks.
Matthew Fox
But no, that’s great. I wanted to talk about some individual moments from that car scene. First of all, when the AI in the car responds to his question of “are any systems working?” with “the air conditioning is fully functional.” We know the powertrain is working. We know the engine is working. We know a number of things are working. Is this proof that this AI is a Stark invention and that it has some of the snarky sense of humor that Stark inventions are known for?
Kyle Olson
I don’t know. It seemed like it was just answering the question that was asked.
Pete Wright
Yeah. There are the below-the-line systems — the engine, you’re moving so you should know that’s obvious. But in case you want air conditioning, you might not have known that’s working. That’s an above-the-line system.
Matthew Fox
Okay. I expected to see something happen with a jet of freon used to freeze somebody, but we didn’t get that.
Kyle Olson
Well, it is DC, so that’s probably high on his list of priorities when he gets in the car: tell me what’s working.
Matthew Fox
Well, this is Marvel actually, not DC. And never mind.
Pete Wright
Why don’t you get it?
Matthew Fox
So here’s a question for you, Rob. There are a number of what look like vehicle POV shots — coming from a camera mounted at the front bumper of the car or even under it. Is that also an homage to Clear and Present Danger or other films? I’ve never seen that shot before.
Rob Kubasko
That technology didn’t exist in the 90s, at least not anything like that. What is that — something he’s seeing through an implant or through a contact lens? What’s the implication?
Kyle Olson
Like the heads-up display. There used to be things that would display LED numbers on the windshield. I think Mercedes-Benz had some sort of holographic display, but it was really just projecting up.
Pete Wright
Just a mirror and your alarm clock.
Kyle Olson
Yeah. I think it really is projecting up from the dash. That was my—
Matthew Fox
To be clear, I wasn’t talking about that. I was talking about those shots when we just see racing through the streets from a very low angle.
Pete Wright
Hmm. Yeah, that’s The French Connection right there.
Rob Kubasko
Oh, got it.
Pete Wright
That’s The French Connection.
Kyle Olson
Yeah. That’s exactly it. And Bullitt.
Pete Wright
That’s the seventies. And close listeners will remember when Rob and I talked about this several weeks ago — how the 70s were being homaged by the 90s, which are now being homaged by this.
Kyle Olson
Whoa. Hat on a hat on a hat.
Rob Kubasko
I think your point has been made and verified.
Kyle Olson
Yeah. But there really are a lot of cameras literally mounted to the front of cars. And the other thing — if you’re watching the behind the scenes — they’re using the truck that has the arm on it, so the cameraman can get really low and keep pace with the rest of them. None of this stuff is done by drones, because that’s the thing we see all the time now. Even a student film I just watched had a drone shot in it. They did not start using drones in Marvel movies until Age of Ultron. So this is all done practically — either a camera attached to a vehicle or a cameraman on an arm, very close to the ground going at full speed.
Pete Wright
Yeah, camera car.
Matthew Fox
Right. Okay, well I’ve dipped my toe into the very scary waters of cinematography. Let me pull us back to my more comfortable world of plot. Where are the DC police? There’s been heavy weapons fire, car crashes — we’re going through some of the most populated and affluently populated parts of the city. How has no one alerted the actual police that this is happening?
Kyle Olson
Who says they haven’t?
Pete Wright
I mean, there is kind of a reputation that DC police are not the fastest to be on scene. Maybe this is all very realistic.
Kyle Olson
Yeah. And anybody who sees them is like, oh, the cops are already here, so why call?
Pete Wright
Yeah, but they’re Hydra, right?
Kyle Olson
Yeah. But the citizens don’t know that — except when the guy starts shooting through the bus to try and get to Nick.
Pete Wright
I’m giving too much grief to the DC police.
Kyle Olson
I was thinking more like it’s Hydra — they’re probably running a blackout in this area so that first responders aren’t getting the information. And also this is happening very fast. Even movie cops don’t respond that quick.
Matthew Fox
Right. Yeah, I can buy that. And clearly the DC police are not up to snuff — their cars don’t let them know an intersection is coming up — which is a great gag, but makes no sense whatsoever. They can see red lights. Drive defensively.
Kyle Olson
Death by Penske.
Matthew Fox
But here’s another question. We’re in the heart of DC, which is in the heart of one of the biggest metroplexes on the East Coast — basically solid metropolitan area from Richmond, Virginia up to Boston, extending a hundred miles inland. How the hell does Nick think he’s going to get off the grid from here?
Rob Kubasko
I would have an answer to that. DC’s layout was designed to be confounding, going all the way back to the Revolutionary War. As long as you know how to get around, you can evade someone fairly quickly in DC. It is filled with nothing but circles and angular streets. I could totally see where he would think he could do that.
Kyle Olson
And later in the movie, we do see the bolt hole he has set up in this area.
Matthew Fox
Help me evade makes sense. I’m just saying the phrase “get me off the grid” implies get me into a rural area.
Pete Wright
Yeah, the grid is bigger than — yeah.
Kyle Olson
Yeah, or at least away from cameras and people and cell phones.
Pete Wright
What’s funny is he actually already knew how to get himself off the grid. He goes down—
Matthew Fox
Because the Winter Soldier is unable to jump in a hole, as we’ll discuss.
Matthew Fox
But okay. Let’s go back to overall stuff. What else about the car chase did you want to talk about?
Kyle Olson
In the end, as he comes around thinking he’s in the clear — there was a joke in the commentary that has become a fan meme: the Russo brothers say the Punisher was driving the Penske truck.
Matthew Fox
Yeah, I like that.
Kyle Olson
Yeah, so it’s fan canon now. But then as Nick comes around the corner, we see a shadowy shape — and cats and kittens, we have a Winter Soldier.
Matthew Fox
It’s the Winter Soldier.
Pete Wright
Oh my God. Finally.
Kyle Olson
Sebastian Stan as Bucky Barnes. Born in Romania. He did not become an American citizen until he was in his 20s. He shares a birthday with my mom.
Matthew Fox
It’s a good day.
Pete Wright
Did he tell you that?
Kyle Olson
He has 57 acting credits on IMDb. He made his TV debut on Law & Order — as many people did — Season 13, Episode 22, “Sheltered,” from 2003, where he played a teenage sniper named Tina Zapper who was radicalized by the person who kidnapped him. So, typecasting?
Matthew Fox
Possible. In the nineties and two-thousands, if you were in New York City and went to theater of any kind — from Broadway to the most off-Broadway — the fun game was looking through your playbill and trying to find an actor who did not have a Law & Order credit, because every episode has criminals and lawyers and judges. So back to this. How did you all feel seeing the Winter Soldier for the first time?
Kyle Olson
Just perfect. Having it in broad daylight, middle of the street, giant weapon, fully masked, doesn’t care — what a vibe just from that shot.
Rob Kubasko
Yeah.
Pete Wright
And I think that’s a central question. The vibe of cinematic Winter Soldier — how did that compare to your expectation coming from what you knew from the books?
Kyle Olson
For me it was a delighted surprise, because he was sort of the ultimate shadow agent. The first time you ever see him in the comics is in the dark. Everything about him is like that. So the idea that it’s bright sunlight, middle of the road — that was a shock. I thought they were going to do it like a bullet comes out of nowhere, and then we follow the path, and there he is in the shadows. But nope. Walking straight down the middle of the street, knew exactly where Nick was going to be, set himself up to be there. He didn’t chase. He was already there.
Matthew Fox
It was such great competence porn — just the complete assurance. I’m not a huge fan of action scenes. The car chase I thought went a little long, but in this moment I got it, because he was such a contrast to those Hydra agents who were so frenetic and chasing and just barely missing. And then here comes this guy who, like you said, is standing perfectly still. Even that moment when the car flips — he gets himself out of the way with the calmest move, like, oh, there’s a grocery cart coming at me, I’ll step out of the way. He’s not bothered in the slightest, even when a huge truck is flying at his head.
Rob Kubasko
You get the sense there’s no wasted energy. None. It is so precise and so intentional, made in just simple, quiet motions.
Matthew Fox
Now, I’m guessing I’m the only one who didn’t already know he was Bucky, correct?
Kyle Olson
Yes, I believe so.
Pete Wright
Probably confirmed.
Matthew Fox
I hadn’t read the comic books and I made a point not to watch previews. So yeah, it was pretty amazing to see this character. I figured this was the Winter Soldier because we’d talked about him, but that’s all I knew at this point. A lot of people went in having read the comic books, a lot of people didn’t. With the mask and all that, I definitely didn’t think, “oh, that guy who was in half of the first movie and died pretty clearly — it must be him.” And often it’s hard to pull something like that off. But I had no idea this was Bucky until much later in the movie.
Pete Wright
That was going to be my next question. Do you remember how long it took you to realize it was Bucky? Did you see it through the mask — like, oh, that’s Bucky’s forehead shape?
Matthew Fox
No.
Kyle Olson
I don’t think we had studied Sebastian Stan as closely as we have now.
Matthew Fox
Yeah. I also wasn’t quite as much of an MCU head at that point. I hadn’t started the podcast. I wasn’t doing the thing I started doing later of, oh, a new Thor movie’s coming out — I need to watch all the old Thor movies. So it had probably been years since I saw the first Captain America.
Kyle Olson
Yeah. So we get to see a weapon we’ve never seen before — sort of a magnetic grenade launcher, mine launcher thing that he sends out, grabs onto the bottom of the vehicle, and blows it up, launching it onto its own roof.
Pete Wright
That doesn’t have an official name.
Kyle Olson
We will see it again.
Pete Wright
What are we going to call it?
Kyle Olson
I’m not sure.
Matthew Fox
Is that a weapon we saw in the comic books?
Kyle Olson
No. He’s never had a signature weapon — very traditional in terms of his kit. But now this has kind of become one, because when he shows up in Thunderbolts he uses it again.
Pete Wright
It should be called the Skipper.
Kyle Olson
Skipper, okay.
Pete Wright
Yeah, if it doesn’t have another name, that seems like it’s open for us.
Kyle Olson
I like it. I was coming close to Cog Launcher, so I think Skipper is probably better.
Pete Wright
The Bog Launcher — that’s a little more of a throwback.
Matthew Fox
So I did make a joke about this before, but maybe there’s a serious reason for it other than the plot. We see that Fury has used the cutter to slice through the concrete and drop himself into the sewer system below. Why doesn’t the Winter Soldier follow him?
Pete Wright
I don’t have an answer for this, and I think about this every time. It seems like such an obvious get. He’s only ten slow Winter Soldier steps ahead. He’s not very far down that hole. Who knows what’s down there, but still.
Kyle Olson
Yeah. Even at Michael Myers’ speed, I think you could catch up to a Nick Fury who has broken ribs and probably a concussion.
Rob Kubasko
He’s busted up.
Rob Kubasko
A better question is: why is the blade not purple?
Kyle Olson
I thought that too.
Matthew Fox
Also good question.
Pete Wright
And I do think that’s a sticking point, because the next time we see the Winter Soldier, it’s not like he was going to be late for another appointment.
Kyle Olson
No, no, no.
Matthew Fox
So okay, let’s move on to Steve coming home.
Kyle Olson
Yes. Stately Rogers Manor.
Matthew Fox
Funny scene of him riding home on his bike. He’s clearly in a more suburban part of DC proper, not the heart of the city the way the Nick Fury chase was.
Kyle Olson
This was actually shot in Washington. This is 1614 20th Street Northwest, Washington, DC. If you’re visiting the area and want to take pictures of Cap’s apartment, stop by Zorba’s Cafe right next door — named after Zorba the Greek, it was a Greek restaurant. As you see Cap come down, you can see the blue and white awnings. It is still in business. Stop by, get a gyro, maybe some saganaki.
Pete Wright
Look at that — right up the street from Dupont.
Matthew Fox
Did we get a sponsorship deal?
Kyle Olson
I would like to.
Matthew Fox
Pete yells at me about sponsorship a lot, so I just want to make sure that continues to roll downhill.
Kyle Olson
I will take a free gyro from any restaurant who wants to give me one.
Matthew Fox
There we go. So he comes in, and the nurse — who we’ll later learn is actually the niece of Agent Carter, Steve’s long-lost love — works for SHIELD. First question: was she waiting there? Because it seems very convenient for bumping into each other. We know her job is in part to monitor Steve. Was she just looking out a window waiting for him to show up? Or is this actually a coincidence?
Kyle Olson
We don’t know how long this is after Fury’s thing. I would imagine SHIELD is on alert. Cap is coming back presumably from seeing Falcon. But we don’t know if it’s an hour later. I assume bells and whistles have been going off about the attack and the fact that the director of SHIELD is missing. So maybe she’s checking with her handler to say, yes, he’s here.
Rob Kubasko
She has tools of surveillance at her disposal, I would suppose.
Pete Wright
Do you think she has cameras in Steve’s apartment? Is she watching him?
Kyle Olson
I think there are cameras in the building, but I don’t think she has access to them. I don’t think she’s quite that level.
Rob Kubasko
Well, maybe. Maybe they’re for her aunt.
Matthew Fox
The thing is, I don’t think she does — because that leads to my next question. Does she know that Fury is in there?
Kyle Olson
I don’t think so.
Pete Wright
Oh, that’s a good point.
Matthew Fox
I don’t think so either, because Fury doesn’t know who to trust in SHIELD. So I think she genuinely means it when she says, “you left your stereo on.”
Pete Wright
That’s interesting, because if she, as an agent of SHIELD, thought the stereo was not a weird thing to notice — that seems like it might have been a trigger to investigate further. But instead she did laundry.
Kyle Olson
Well, if she’s a deep cover agent, that’s probably what her orders are — she seems to be pretty far down the line.
Kyle Olson
She is Agent 13, after all. That means there are twelve people above her who would be telling her—
But before we get too far — this is Emily Van Camp playing Sharon Carter. 29 credits on IMDb, mostly known as a television actress. She starred on Everwood, also had long runs on Revenge and Brothers & Sisters, and made her debut on Are You Afraid of the Dark?
Pete Wright
That takes me back.
Kyle Olson
Sharon Carter’s first appearance was in Tales of Suspense #75, from March of 1966, when she was revealed to look just like Peggy Carter because she was originally her sister. But as the timeline started to slide, she kept moving further down the family tree until she settled on being Peggy’s niece.
Matthew Fox
In the comics, were she and Steve ever romantically linked?
Kyle Olson
Yes. She’s like his main squeeze, because Peggy never really came back — she died in the war. So it’s been an on-and-off thing. I feel a little bad for her as it goes in the MCU, because almost all the stuff Sharon Carter is known for in the comic books gets taken by other characters in this movie. She’s much more like Natasha here — a hardcore SHIELD dark operative, cynical where Steve is optimistic. Then the tragic love stuff goes to Peggy. So she doesn’t have a lot to do. She doesn’t get any cool fighting moments, she doesn’t really get the romance — not until much further down the line when she shows up again on television. Maybe Emily Van Camp’s superpower is television.
Pete Wright
He says “cup of coffee?” — super sincere, super authentic. How do you say no to that, Chris Evans?
Kyle Olson
He says “I’ll keep my distance” and she says “hopefully not too far.” So there’s that.
Matthew Fox
Right. And so here’s my question. Nat had earlier been needling him—
Pete Wright
Needling him.
Matthew Fox
Needling, thank you. Laugh not at my noodles. So is he intentionally flirting? Or is he just being sincere — someone is doing something near me, they could do it easier in my apartment — and not recognizing the overtones of that “come into my apartment, young woman” statement?
Kyle Olson
No, I think he is flirting. I think what we had seen before of Natasha put that into his head — she did mention the cute girl in his building. Which I think Natasha was baiting him, because I think she knew this was a SHIELD agent sent to watch him. So this is basically a prank, right? Natasha set it up: “Oh yeah, ask that girl out. I’m sure you have a lot in common. Like the person who signs your paycheck.”
Matthew Fox
So he goes into the building, hears the music, gets suspicious, and that’s where we’re going in our deep dive: a shot of Steve Rogers’ bookcase. There are a number of books on here, all of which I think have some relevance, but two are particularly thought of as Easter eggs. Let me read them all out first. Never Surrender: A Soldier’s Journey to the Crossroads of Faith and Freedom by Jerry Boykin. The Art of War by Sun Tzu. A Moveable Feast by Ernest Hemingway. All the President’s Men by Carl Bernstein and Bob Woodward. The Catcher in the Rye by J.D. Salinger. Steinbeck in Vietnam by John Steinbeck. Dispatches by Michael Herr. Madam President: Shattering the Last Glass Ceiling by Eleanor Clift and Tom Brazaitis. George H.W. Bush by Timothy Naftali. Barack Obama: The Story by David Maraniss. The Night Stalkers: Top Secret Missions of the U.S. Army’s Special Operations Aviation Regiment by Michael J. Durant. And The Second World War, an illustrated history series — though the two books we see are only two of the ten volumes. Which of those do you think are particularly Easter eggy? One is kind of obvious, the other is a very deep dive.
Kyle Olson
I was trying to see if any of those were on Steve’s list — but no, they’re not. I was surprised Watergate wasn’t on his list, but I’m sure it was on the page before.
Pete Wright
All the President’s Men feels Easter eggy to me.
Kyle Olson
Yeah, that’s what I was thinking.
Matthew Fox
Because it’s a movie about a political conspiracy starring Robert Redford. The other one I don’t expect anyone to get — I certainly had no idea until I researched it. J.D. Salinger, The Catcher in the Rye.
Pete Wright
Really?
Matthew Fox
In the movie Captain America from 1990, Cap was played by Matt Salinger — J.D. Salinger’s son.
Kyle Olson
Oh, that’s right.
Pete Wright
Wow, that’s a deep cut.
Rob Kubasko
Wow.
Matthew Fox
And it’s not out of place — The Catcher in the Rye makes sense as a book he might have read. A lot of these are either books about war or books about politics. He’s trying to catch up on things. The Second World War books especially. I love that they put in those two as particular deep dives.
Pete Wright
Just how deliberate that is.
Kyle Olson
Confirmed by the internet, if you can trust it — that was him standing next to Stan Lee at the end with their medals.
Matthew Fox
Any other commentary on that book list, or shall we continue?
Kyle Olson
I rolled my eyes at Art of War, but fine. Like any boomer, he’s got a ton of World War II books on his shelf. What a surprise.
Matthew Fox
To be fair, he’s not a boomer — he’s very much greatest generation.
Kyle Olson
Oh, that’s true. At one point he was, but now he isn’t.
Matthew Fox
So he is sneaking in now, clearly in combat mode, and that’s where the minutes cut. Do you think this is an appropriate response? He knows nothing about what happened to Nick. He has no other reason to be suspicious. Is sneaking in full combat-ready an appropriate reaction to finding your stereo is on?
Kyle Olson
Yeah, when you’re a SHIELD agent, I think he’s learned paranoia from his compatriots.
Pete Wright
Guys, I have a bigger problem, and I’m surprised nobody else has raised this offense. Steve leaves his shield just leaning up against the wall in the hallway like it’s some other debris.
Kyle Olson
In the hallway! I put that note too. Not mounted — it doesn’t even have a holder for it.
Pete Wright
Clearly people are coming in and out of his apartment willy-nilly, and there is his shield in the hallway. That is an egregious offense to vibranium and all things made with it. He should show more respect.
Matthew Fox
I think I can defend it. To his knowledge, no one knows how to get into his apartment — this is the first time someone’s tried. So leaving it in his apartment probably feels fairly safe to him.
Pete Wright
But the hallway.
Rob Kubasko
Or maybe it’s a much more utilitarian approach. It’s literally just like an umbrella to him.
Matthew Fox
Yeah, where do you put your raincoat?
Pete Wright
Oh, my goodness.
Matthew Fox
It’s in the hallway so you can grab it on your way out the door.
Kyle Olson
But we need to talk about the needle drop, because it becomes extremely important. We hear “It’s Been a Long, Long Time.” Music by Jule Styne, lyrics by Sammy Cahn — performed by Harry James’s orchestra with vocal by Kitty Kallen. This came out in 1945, which is the same year Cap went into the ice in the MCU. So for him, this would be a contemporary song. He was probably hearing it before all of those things happened. It’s still new to him.
Pete Wright
You can tell he’s burning through those classics he’s just discovering.
Kyle Olson
And obviously it was Nick who put it on.
Pete Wright
Do you think there’s some sort of coded message there? Or probably not, because he comes in shields-a-blazin’ thinking there’s been some sort of ingress.
Kyle Olson
Could be. And of course this continues — this becomes almost the unofficial Cap and Peggy theme.
Matthew Fox
Well, this backs up to the question I think we brushed over a little too quickly. I haven’t had my house burgled, but I’ve watched a lot of true crime and read a lot about assassinations. And generally, people who are either breaking into your apartment or setting up to attack you — don’t turn on your stereo. To me, that reads as someone pulling a prank, not someone here to kill me.
Pete Wright
Yeah. But is Cap, from his worldview, prank-ready? I’m trying to gauge whether or not he’s the right target for a prank. And we know Fury has a twisted sense of humor. He might want to get away with a shenanigan here and there.
Matthew Fox
He has shenaned.
Kyle Olson
He has shenaned. He will shenan again.
Matthew Fox
To quote.
Matthew Fox
Alright, anything else from these minutes we want to discuss?
Pete Wright
Good minutes. These are legendary minutes. I’m glad we were all here to meet Dirty Dirty Bucky, in the middle of the street. This begins a whole new era of the movie. Very exciting.
Kyle Olson
Oh yes.
Matthew Fox
With that, let’s wrap up. Rob, where can people find you?
Rob Kubasko
In my office. When not in the bathroom. At Rob Kubasko — it’s Rob Kubasko almost everywhere, all the same.
Matthew Fox
Cool. Kyle?
Kyle Olson
You can hear me on Craft and Chaos, our podcast about trying to make art while it feels like the world is on fire. And now it feels like it literally is on fire.
Matthew Fox
I like it. Mr. Pete Wright?
Pete Wright
You can find me on the resuscitated Once in Future Parent podcast, now airing in a brand new feed.
Matthew Fox
Yeah, the Once in Future Parent series is now happening on the Superhero Ethics podcast. The most recent episode is called “Superhero Daddy Issues,” and you can see Pete both on that and on my TikTok, The Ethical Panda, where we have Pete discussing said daddy issues. Pete also does a number of amazing podcasts — go to TruStory FM to find those. You can also find me, the Ethical Panda, on Superhero Ethics and the Star Wars Generations podcast. We’re coming up on Maul: Shadow Lord, which we’ll have a lot of fun with. So on behalf of myself, Pete, Kyle, Rob, and all you wonderful people, thank you so much. We have spoken.
Kyle Olson
Enough said.
Pete Wright
Still no tag.
