Pete Wright:
Welcome back to Marvel Movie Minute, a weekly podcast in which we assemble to explore the films of the Marvel Cinematic Universe five minutes at a time. In this, our ninth season, we’re looking at Captain America: The Winter Soldier. I’m Pete Wright.
Matthew Fox:
I am Matthew Fox.
Rob Kubasko:
Hey, and I’m Rob Kubasko. And did you know that since 331 BC, the need to slow the advance of horses, chariots, and war elephants has been met by the caltrop, a unique triangular-shaped metal object that has since also proved effective when used against wheeled vehicles with pneumatic tires. In fact, so effective that the caltrop is also the symbol of the United States Marine Corps Third Division, formed on the sixteenth of September 1942. Thank you, Persians.
Pete Wright:
What did I do to deserve this, Rob? I am so blessed.
Matthew Fox:
It’s so good.
Rob Kubasko:
Since I’m one of the trio, I thought we’d have a little bit of time for me to do the usual shtick.
Matthew Fox:
It’s so good.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, to just do you. Well, we are talking about minutes 51 through 55 today, which begins with some quinchrobatics and ends with the product placement we deserve.
Matthew Fox:
But has in the middle of it some caltrops.
Pete Wright:
There’s some caltrops right in the middle.
Matthew Fox:
Courtesy of our Iranian, not just Persian, friends.
Rob Kubasko:
Well yes, okay, very good. Thank you.
Pete Wright:
Very good. Okay, so here we are. We begin with our quinchatics. We had a full Winter Soldier 5 last time — the escape, the elevator fight, and the escape. Now we have completed the motorcycle leap from the gaping maw that is the SHIELD Triskelion doors as they just about clip Cap’s bike on his way out the runway of the Triskelion, and he is met with the Quinjet.
Rob Kubasko:
Well, I should just say, before he gets to the Quinjet, he sees the traffic spikes, which is the whole point of the intro.
Pete Wright:
I’m sorry, I did that. I just skipped the traffic spikes. I’m sorry, Rob. I just hijacked your entire bit.
Rob Kubasko:
That’s okay.
Matthew Fox:
Well, hold on a second. This is a very important point that we need to dive deeper into. Caltrops are specific things you scatter on the road.
Rob Kubasko:
Oh yeah, this is the evolution of those.
Matthew Fox:
So our spikes — okay, these are, I was gonna say, to me caltrops is like — I don’t think in Mario Kart you specifically get caltrops, but everything you’re dropping is kind of a form of caltrops.
Rob Kubasko:
This is the evolution.
Matthew Fox:
But having something built into the road, that’s now, it’s like caltroppiness. It is caltroposity.
Rob Kubasko:
These are one-way spikes. But these are actually a very good point of building tension because, as we talked about, this is layers on layers of tension. The reason why he sees the traffic spikes is for you to immediately think, oh, he’ll just jump those. But can he jump them? No, because now the Quinjet comes into view.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Rob Kubasko:
So now he’s stuck.
Pete Wright:
Right. In that regard, would you agree that the Quinjet is in itself its own form of caltrop? Is it caltrops all the way down at this point?
Rob Kubasko:
Oh my god. My apologies to all the listeners. I may have ruined—
Matthew Fox:
Okay, here’s the most important thing.
Pete Wright:
Rob, is it a quintrop?
Matthew Fox:
Next — we don’t say anything about this, right? But it’s a good way to test if Kyle listens when he’s not here.
Pete Wright:
Yes, it is.
Matthew Fox:
Because next week we just every now and then say, “Hey Pete, that sounds kind of caltroppy, don’t you think?”
Pete Wright:
It’s caltroppy.
Rob Kubasko:
Yeah, it’s Caltropical.
Matthew Fox:
I would drive him crazy.
Pete Wright:
There’s a caltroppiness. We’re home.
Rob Kubasko:
Oh my God. Okay, so the Quinjet.
Pete Wright:
Yes.
Rob Kubasko:
The Quinjet comes in and now it gets real.
Pete Wright:
Does it though, Rob? I might have been provoked to say this is where it gets real as an expression of intensity, but — last week I mentioned that so much of the action, of the fighting choreography of this movie, was based on the game Captain America: Super Soldier, which came out in 2011 with The First Avenger. Chris Evans, as Steve Rogers slash Captain America, played the game and said, “This is gonna be the fight choreography of this movie, of The Winter Soldier. We’re just gonna take it from the game.” And I think his expression of physicality on the Quinjet is the most video game we get in any of the movies in terms of Captain America’s body.
Rob Kubasko:
Well, and keep in mind that, again continuing the theme of this movie, this scene also exists as an homage to another 1990s great.
Pete Wright:
Thank God you’re back. Okay. What is it?
Rob Kubasko:
It’s True Lies. It’s the Harrier jump jet scene.
Pete Wright:
Outstanding.
Matthew Fox:
I have to say, I have begun to question — when you introduce your references, you often say it calls back to that 1980s great, and then reference a movie that, if I know, it’s because it was not, not great. But in this case, I was all ready to jump on that, but True Lies is a classic.
Pete Wright:
Matthew. Okay.
Rob Kubasko:
Come on.
Matthew Fox:
True Lies is one of the top parts of the oeuvre of the former governor of California.
Rob Kubasko:
Of course.
Pete Wright:
Mm-hmm.
Rob Kubasko:
You’re welcome.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, thank you. Okay. I was really nervous that setup was okay.
Rob Kubasko:
No, I knew where he was going.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. All right. So I think it is goofy. Him flopping around all over the thing is goofy. I’m still on board, but the number of times I’ve seen this movie, it starts to distract from what the rest of this five minutes represents, which is a key pivot into the Three Days of the Condor kind of portion of the movie. It’s the jeans and sneakers and hoodie up part of the movie. And it’s an interesting way to transition us from what was a very grounded fight scene and a brutal fall through the atrium of the Triskelion to cartoon gymnastics on a jet, back to grounded spycraft.
Matthew Fox:
Well, I think you’re right. And by far the most interesting parts of these minutes are the Three Days of the Condor part. So let’s talk a little bit more about the Quinjet. One of the reasons why I think it is so ridiculous is they seem to forget that they can go up. And having gone up, they can go to the side, because — Captain America seems like the laws of physics do not apply, but there is one law that he has to follow, which is gravity. Like, it would be so easy to get him off this thing.
But even putting that aside, one thing is interesting because we were talking before about who Cap is willing to kill or not willing to kill. And I’d forgotten this detail because I was thinking, we don’t know who’s piloting that Quinjet. We don’t know if it is hardcore Hydra people or if it’s just Cap, “I thought you were a hero. I don’t know why I’m being told to shoot you unless you comply, but I’m being told to shoot you unless you comply.” Did you notice that when he makes the Quinjet crash, they specifically focus on the cockpit and show that there is no damage to the cockpit? It is almost the equivalent of the G.I. Joe parachute. In this massive combat with tanks and guns and planes, no one’s actually being harmed.
Pete Wright:
There’s always a parachute.
Rob Kubasko:
Well, and it even has that nice side eye. He gives it a side eye literally the moment it switches from that scene to him.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Matthew Fox:
Yeah.
Rob Kubasko:
And I also love the intro to this scene. It’s this gorgeous and plainly composed shot of you seeing Quinjet on one side, motorcycle on the other, and you literally see him like an ant just fly onto the Quinjet. The point being — hey, he easily could have just taken one of the engines out with the shield. He could have crashed that jet, not cared about the pilot whatsoever. The whole idea of the struggle of him on the Quinjet is that he’s saving the life of the pilot.
Pete Wright:
Really? That’s what we get out of that?
Rob Kubasko:
Yeah, that’s what I get.
Pete Wright:
I don’t think I’ve ever watched it that way. You’re right. I mean, I totally get it. I just — it never hit me.
Rob Kubasko:
Because he could have disabled that jet in so many different ways. He could have thrown the motorcycle at one of the engines.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Rob Kubasko:
And not cared. He’s doing it so that he can systematically disable the jet so that it does a soft crash on the bridge or the place they’re at, and not just destroy the obstacle.
Pete Wright:
Okay, so he does step one — he uses the shield. He chucks the shield at the engine, one of the VTOL wing engines, and destroys that engine. The way I always watched it was that he jumps onto the Quinjet to get the shield back, because the shield doesn’t return. It lodges itself in the engine. So the rest of his effort is to get the shield back. But you’re right, he does a lot more than just regain the shield.
Rob Kubasko:
And as far as the disabled — you’re right, he disables the one engine, but he could have just thrown the shield right at the cockpit and just murdered the guy.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, because Cap stops counting.
Rob Kubasko:
Exactly.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Rob Kubasko:
It doesn’t matter. This obstacle needs to be removed.
Matthew Fox:
Well, I appreciate you pointing that out, because I had not noticed that it was Cap specifically working to make sure that that happens. But I think you’re totally right. I like that it’s subtle, that he doesn’t say to someone, “Well, I know these people don’t know that I’m not a…” — but it’s still conveying that message. He had one view of all those terrorists, or whatever they were, who took over the ship, the mercenaries, and he views the value of the lives of these people differently. In his mind, he’s not sure if they are actually bad, bad, bad. They’re just — I was gonna say, they’re just following orders, and that’s actually not that good a defense, but you know what I mean. They’re people who have a reasonable reason to believe that they’re the good guys while they’re doing this, and so Cap is respecting that.
Rob Kubasko:
Okay, let me make it deeper. I think he knows, and here’s why. These Quinjets are equipped with Gatling guns on the front. That’s a fairly high caliber Gatling gun. The purpose of a Gatling gun is to throw so much ammunition into the air that accuracy no longer matters. I almost think now, after breaking this apart, the guy who’s piloting it — assuming whoever it is — they’re actually working to miss him.
Matthew Fox:
Oh, one hundred percent.
Pete Wright:
You think?
Rob Kubasko:
And I think Cap knows that.
Matthew Fox:
Those are warning shots.
Rob Kubasko:
I think he realizes, you’re pulling your punch when it comes to firing at me. So I’m going to do the same to you.
Pete Wright:
So this is a gentleman’s duel.
Rob Kubasko:
Yes, that’s exactly what I think it is.
Matthew Fox:
Well, especially because a lot of people, if you don’t have the nerves of steel — if you’re on a motorcycle and someone’s shooting at you, you’re probably gonna spin out. You’re probably gonna stop in some way. So yeah, I totally agree with all that.
Pete Wright:
Okay. All right. So they’re both pulling their punches. Then we turn as Cap gets away. We are now inside the Triskelion situation room, and Sitwell is telling everybody that we need to get Cap. It’s a hard target search of every armpit, butt crack around Washington DC. That’s pretty much the line — I may be paraphrasing. That gives us a sense of what the bad guys of SHIELD — not yet called Hydra — are trying to do. And we get Sharon Carter standing up for America.
Rob Kubasko:
So you know what I also think this is? I think this is her villain origin. The seed of her future is planted right here.
Pete Wright:
Okay, tell me more about that.
Rob Kubasko:
So we kind of know what happens to her.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Rob Kubasko:
I think this is where she has a moment where she realizes, oh, everything that I thought was true, everything that I thought was good — it’s not. And now I have questions. I think this is the moment. Her look, when she’s looking at Sitwell, who’s the guy straight — she’s looking at him like, yo, this is wrong. And I kind of feel like maybe this is the first time she’s having that moment of, hey, we’re not being who we say we are. I think this is the beginning of the seed that affects her decisions much later on.
Matthew Fox:
But she was pretending to be a nurse next to the greatest hero America’s ever been.
Rob Kubasko:
Oh, but for a valued purpose. That was her job. But I think this is the moment where the her future decisions come from.
Matthew Fox:
For those who don’t know, by the way, we’re talking about that she becomes this arms and information dealer, if I remember, in the made-up city they have in the Far East. I want to say Koalam Ajinpur? Tajinpur? Something like that? Somebody help me out here.
Pete Wright:
That’s very close to a real city. What is the city?
Matthew Fox:
Right, it’s not Kuala Lumpur, but it’s something. And that’s in Falcon and the Winter Soldier, I believe, right?
Pete Wright:
Yes, Falcon and the Winter Soldier.
Rob Kubasko:
Yeah.
Matthew Fox:
A lot of people may not remember that, so just grounding us a little bit.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, no, it’s good.
Rob Kubasko:
If you’re listening to this, you know.
Pete Wright:
If you know, you know.
Rob Kubasko:
Madripoor. It’s Madripoor.
Pete Wright:
So, Madripoor.
Matthew Fox:
Madripoor, thank you.
Pete Wright:
All right, so she steps in, and Pierce is lurking. And he jumps in before Sitwell can respond. “Because he lied to us,” Pierce says. “Captain Rogers has information regarding the death of Director Fury. He refused to share it. He is now a fugitive from SHIELD.” So here we are — leadership of SHIELD gaslighting SHIELD. This becomes central to the Danny Pudi problem, which is: who amongst this crew is actually already Hydra, and who still needs to be convinced?
Matthew Fox:
Back up a second. Because I do want to talk about the orders Sitwell gives, because they are wildly unconstitutional, and that’s worth discussing. But I’m gonna disagree with you. Pierce is not gaslighting. He is 100% telling the truth. Yes, he’s putting his spin on it because he is, as we will later find out — but what does he say?
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Matthew Fox:
He says that Cap lied. He says that Cap wouldn’t tell us why Nick Fury was in his apartment. That’s 100% the truth.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, no, that’s a fair point. The question then becomes excessive response to that. It’s Captain America. I think Pierce’s words are accurate. His intent is what is not accurate. His intent is what shows his hand, I think, to call out all of SHIELD — and Sitwell, the two of them, to call out all of the resources of SHIELD in order to, as you say, do things that are completely unconstitutional. Turning every security camera through the city through that monitor right here. “Scan all open sources — phones, computers, PDAs, whatever. If someone tweets about this guy, I want to know about it.” That’s the stuff that is the mulch of this movie. It’s what all of this movie grows out of. And it’s what, I think, takes us from the realm of, “Hey, we have a misunderstanding. We have a resource that we need to talk to in Captain America and understand his motivations a little bit better,” to “Something is wrong and we need to just take him down.”
Matthew Fox:
I don’t always have clear memories of when I watch things. And this may be where I was different, because a lot of people may have known more about this story from the comics or the Pierce character, et cetera. I, at this point, the first time I watched the movie, 100% believed that he believed this.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, okay, I’ll buy that.
Matthew Fox:
I thought that was part of the tragedy — that he was the person who was being manipulated, and he honestly thought his friend is dead and he doesn’t know how, et cetera, et cetera.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. That’s a really good point, because everything I’m talking about requires the benefit of having seen it before.
Matthew Fox:
Right. But that’s part of how brilliant it is, because now we watch it and we’re like, how the hell did we miss it?
Pete Wright:
Yeah, right. This sequence is beautifully intercut in parallel because, as they’re having their conversation, we cut back and forth between what’s going on with Steve. At this point, Steve has gone jeans and sneakers, and he’s going back into the hospital, and he’s looking for his Hubba Bubba USB stick. This is where we get a little banter between Steve and Natasha. Is this what you wanted from them? Because this is the first time they get to have a showdown, essentially. Two people very close to Fury. And now they’re laying it all out.
Rob Kubasko:
You could cut the sexual tension with a knife. Hey, wait — by the way, before we get to this, can I just say one side note? I did not know that Altoids made Cool Honey flavored mints.
Pete Wright:
Oh, okay.
Rob Kubasko:
I had never tried those before, and they’re gone. They were only around for a few years. I’m not trying to delay the conversation on this. I just want to make sure I get this in. He’s walking down this hallway of this hospital. He’s in a hospital.
Pete Wright:
Yes.
Rob Kubasko:
Okay. Weirdly, they put the vending machine in the hallway, which would never happen because they don’t want somebody standing in the hallway when a gurney’s going by.
Pete Wright:
All right.
Rob Kubasko:
And there’s a weird close-up of him looking at it. There’s York Peppermint Patties, Doublemint Gum, Eclipse Mints, and Cool Honey Altoids. I have never seen those before.
Pete Wright:
Total news to me.
Rob Kubasko:
Yeah, they came out in like 2009. They were only out for like two years. Okay, I just want to say that for the record.
Pete Wright:
I’m really glad you did.
Matthew Fox:
Just to be clear, folks, Altoids did not sponsor us, even though that sounded like one. Rob, I was gonna say that was like the best possible transition into a live ad read. But no, Altoids is not sponsoring us. We’re just honestly telling you, the listening audience —
Pete Wright:
We’re just fans.
Matthew Fox:
If you notice those Altoids, which I did not, they’re great.
Rob Kubasko:
Well, they are curiously strong. And if you consider the curiosity that we all have for the Winter Soldier — you — yeah, okay, I’m fine.
Pete Wright:
You just take your time.
Rob Kubasko:
So anyway, there’s this cool shot of Captain’s face in the reflection, and then you see Black Widow come up behind him, and then he vigorously takes her into a side room. This conversation is so interesting because you feel like truth is being had. This is where two people are really just being honest. There’s no further obscuring of fact. And there’s real understanding, like there’s a real connection between the two of them, which I enjoy.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, and I think you’re right. It starts on that shot in the reflection of the vending machine. When she steps up and pops the bubble in her mouth, just to tell us in no uncertain terms — she’s the one who bought the gum that was hiding the USB stick. We have no more questions. And we don’t get to be ahead of Cap, because he gets it at the same time. I think that’s perfect.
You’re right, that sequence — “Where is it?” “Safe.” “Do better.” “Where did you get it?” “Why would I tell you?” — just one after another. We get a lot out of this conversation until she says — he says — “Stop lying.” She says, “I only act like I know everything, Rogers.” This whole movie, and this show in particular, we’ve been talking about under the assumption that she knows so much more than certainly Steve does. I wonder if this is sort of the first honest thing she is saying to all of us.
Matthew Fox:
Yeah, I think it is. I think that’s a very good description of it. Her goal is to always know just a little bit more than the person she’s talking to. But also — if people think you already know the secrets, then they don’t mind talking about the secret. It’s a very good skill to have for what she’s doing. And I do think that it’s an important moment of honesty, and that that’s exactly why. Because she realizes that Cap thinks everyone is lying to him, because everybody has been.
To me, it really goes to just how good of a spy she is and how good her character is at these kind of things. And it’s connected to the way he treats her, because yeah, he throws her against a wall. And yeah, there’s a lot of sexual tension in that scene, because a lot of us are weird little freaks. But it’s also — she’s supposed to be scared by that. She’s supposed to be like, “Ah, what’s happening?” But she’s not.
Pete Wright:
She’s not, yeah.
Matthew Fox:
She is completely unfazed. She’s talking to him exactly as though he had just gently walked her into that room, because he has all the physical strength and she has all the control of the scene.
Rob Kubasko:
But what I think is also cool is — okay, I’m gonna go away from being a freak. Here’s this moment where she gets to reveal the scar. And you’d say to yourself, oh, you’re revealing your abdomen. There should be something sexual about that. Instead, there isn’t, because it is done solely as a way for her to convey to him, “Hey, I’m being completely vulnerable here. I’m gonna show you my scars.”
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Rob Kubasko:
And all that that implies. It’s a really good — this is one of those conversations that happened between two characters in a Marvel movie where it does so many things right and really establishes perspective for the audience, which does not happen in a lot of movies. We watch movies, we know this type of character development between two characters does not always happen. And this happens really quickly, and it’s really well done.
Matthew Fox:
And I love that it’s immediate because, you’re right, in that moment she’s not trying to be at all, “Look at my body.” But she then does say immediately, “No more bikinis,” which is — she’s very used to flirting with people to get their attention.
Rob Kubasko:
Of course, exactly.
Matthew Fox:
That is very much the equivalent of, “Oh, I just got out of the shower, I’m sorry.” And his reaction is perfect as well, because, it’s supposed to be, “Oh no, I’m sure you —” and instead he’s just as nonchalant of, “Yeah, no, I think you still probably look just as good in the bikini.” And moving right on. It is one of my favorite exchanges in the movie, both because it’s hilarious — because Scarlett Johansson’s in a bikini, no one’s gonna worry about a scar — but also he’s both acknowledging that, and also being just as unfazed by it.
Pete Wright:
But they both get a little flirty smile in. That’s a nice exchange for them, especially because we know that it never goes anywhere apart from collegial spycraft.
Rob Kubasko:
But you get — there’ll be more of this. There will be future moments like this, and I always think that when it’s Cap and Black Widow, there is always an assumed feeling that you can almost see it in the scene where she’s looking at him, and she’s like, “Wow, I would never have thought I would be talking to someone as nice and as good as you.” And I think what the feeling you get is that Cap is looking at her and going, “You think you’re not good enough for me. You’re wrong.” There is definitely that shared respect — we’re both soldiers on the battlefield. That’s where I think Cap comes from on this. And you can see it in his eyes. Chris Evans knows — he is this character. I will say, Robert Downey Jr. is Iron Man and Tony Stark. God, Chris Evans has nailed the whole soul of what Captain America should be.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, for sure. They — Natasha gives us our beat introduction of Winter Soldier. We’ve seen Winter Soldier at work. We’ve seen Winter Soldier as an assassin. And now she gets to give us another layer of the onion that is Winter Soldier. “Five years ago, I was escorting a nuclear engineer.” She took a Soviet slug, no rifling, shot straight through her. “And going after him, it’s a dead end. I know, I’ve tried. He’s a ghost story.” Now we have the ghost story.
This is one of those where I wish Kyle was here, because Kyle has read all of the intervening years of the comics about Winter Soldier that I have only dabbled in. My understanding is there was quite an effort from Marvel to say, “No, he’s really dead now,” for years and years and years. And it was Brubaker who came back and said, “You know what, we’re actually gonna make him an invisible hand” as the Winter Soldier. This introduction of the Winter Soldier, telling it like the story that he’s been a ghost all along, that he is attached to so many different assassinations, is the thing in this five minutes that is lifted from the comic run after years of Marvel trying not to. And what a great character to be able to do that. I think it starts us on our little research kick, and gets our people back on the move. And then we cut back to our sit room.
Matthew Fox:
I do just need to say the last thing. The “no rifling” — I’m gonna remind us that means he’s firing a blunderbuss.
Pete Wright:
Yes — musket, right.
Matthew Fox:
Rifling is what gives bullets their accuracy. He is firing a musket.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Matthew Fox:
Moving right along.
Pete Wright:
I still fantasize about the Winter Soldier’s armaments room. It’s just like — now they’re just bear traps.
Matthew Fox:
The Wonderman.
Pete Wright:
Okay, so now Pierce is talking. Tell me what you think of the gamesmanship of our man Pierce. It starts with him talking to his council — all of his holographic council members. And they’re kind of chewing him out. “You know what makes him a traitor? Hiring a mercenary to hijack his own ship.” They’re talking about Nick Fury. They’re talking about coercion. And it puts Pierce, apparently, on his back foot.
Matthew Fox:
Yeah, this is one of the greatest “oh please don’t throw me in that briar patch” moments that we’ve ever seen. And again, he plays it so well, especially because he’s set himself up so much as, “I am another Nick Fury. I am Nick Fury’s buddy.” So the idea that not only is he sharing Nick Fury’s objections to Project Insight — but when have we seen the council except arguing with Nick Fury? This is the group that Nick Fury says, “I acknowledge your decision, but because it’s a stupid decision, I’m ignoring it,” or whatever the actual quote is. That three million people just yelled at their podcast players as I massively increase our listener numbers.
The point being, I think it is so brilliant to put Pierce in that exact same situation where, again, it looks like he’s trying to push back against them and they’re like, “No, we can’t do it.” Because now once you see it a second time — or if you’ve already figured it out the first time, congratulations, you’re better than me — you realize how brilliant he’s being. Because that — this is the best kind of manipulation — is when it can seem like your opponents are forcing you to do the thing that you have wanted them to do the whole time.
Rob Kubasko:
What I love about this, especially coming right off of the Black Widow Cap scene — do you notice the camera never stops moving? The entire sequence of this, it never stops moving.
Pete Wright:
It’s always tracking.
Rob Kubasko:
It’s always tracking. I have to think that had to make the special effects harder to do, but the reason is, it’s befuddling. That’s the whole point of the scene — that the charade is being reversed. I really just love that note, especially when you watch it over and over again to try to pull out the meaning. It’s a very neat thing. And I just get Jedi Council vibes whenever I watch this.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Rob Kubasko:
Like I’m just waiting for Mace Windu to be — well, Mace Windu should be there. He would be there. It’s just awesome.
Matthew Fox:
And it’s very much that Palpatine thing of, “Oh, make me chancellor. Oh, supreme powers for me? Oh, I know.”
Rob Kubasko:
Exactly.
Matthew Fox:
“I suppose I’ll take that clone army.” Yeah, it’s the exact same kind of energy.
Rob Kubasko:
Right.
Pete Wright:
I kind of love that both the council and Pierce each get a mic drop line. We have, “Are you calling for my resignation? I’ve got a pen and paper right here.” That is the ultimate bluff call. But then — I can’t remember his name — the council member says, “This council moves to immediately reactivate Project Insight. You want to say something snappy? Now would be a good time.” I love that line so much. And they give it to the council member. It’s not even one of our hero characters. It’s just the council member, and it’s great.
Rob Kubasko:
Two things, then, to say. As I watch this, I constantly think to myself — can you imagine somehow taking a time machine and showing 1978 Robert Redford this and saying, “Look what a movie you’re gonna be in someday”? And him going, “What the hell is this?”
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Rob Kubasko:
But at the same time, can you imagine anybody else pulling this scene off?
Matthew Fox:
And there’s something so beautiful about that, because — granted, this movie came along before we’d really gotten this far — but if you look at Hollywood today, there’s kind of this civil war happening, no pun intended, between the huge big budget comic book movies and the indie flicks. And what is the granddaddy of supporting indie flicks? The Sundance Film Festival, which is 100% Robert Redford’s baby.
I think it is true that at this point, the comic book movies didn’t yet have that power that they’ve had for the last ten years or so, but they were definitely getting there. And his performance adds a lot of weight. His performance is a big part of — as we’ve talked about before — other big-name — I don’t know if Angela Bassett stars in one of these movies. I don’t know if Sigourney Weaver goes into a TV show for Marvel. If Robert Redford doesn’t do it. So to me, it’s kind of hilarious that the granddaddy of the independent film movement was a big part of cementing the $500 million, tent pole Marvel movie taking over Hollywood.
Pete Wright:
So we transition back to sneakers and jeans. Steve and Natasha are on the move. Where do they go? Well, they’re in Cleveland still. At least for the exteriors and interior location, they are in Cleveland’s Tower City Center, 230 West Huron Road. This is from movie-locations.com, which is a perennial favorite for anybody doing a movie show. They get to wander about the mall, and they get to walk slowly. Natasha gets to teach Steve how to be covert. We’ve talked about this before. I can’t remember which one of you mentioned it, but the fact that Steve has been a soldier on a battlefield and likely has no skills on how to be covert — that’s really fun. Is it a mic drop line that he gets to say, “If I were to run, my shoes would fall off”?
Matthew Fox:
I thought about going back to look at his shoes, but I had a baby in my arms at the time. Did we see the brand of the shoes? Because that’s kind of like a negative endorsement.
Pete Wright:
I know, he’s nagging his sneaks.
Rob Kubasko:
No, I couldn’t tell what kind they were.
Pete Wright:
They’re just generic whites.
Rob Kubasko:
Generic, yeah.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. It makes me think that if he were to just bolt — just a full Cap run — what comes off first? Does the sole just melt off his feet? Is that what — the threading just rips apart? His feet are too massive.
Rob Kubasko:
Or maybe he’s trying to say those shoes are too comfortable.
Pete Wright:
Too comfortable.
Rob Kubasko:
Where’s my old issue leather combat boots?
Matthew Fox:
Combat boots, yeah.
Rob Kubasko:
What are these things?
Matthew Fox:
It’s like that pillow.
Rob Kubasko:
That’s how I took it.
Matthew Fox:
The soles of his shoes are marshmallows.
Pete Wright:
Oh, you guys know, we were totally wrong. I just figured it out. It’s the one shame of Captain America that we never actually see on film. When they gave him the super soldier serum, his feet didn’t grow. He has little tiny feet. He’s wearing giant shoes. They’re like clown shoes for him. This is actually a story of great shame. I’m so sad.
Matthew Fox:
If anybody has a podcast about Marvel they can invite me on, you can contact me at —
Rob Kubasko:
He’s like Kristen Wiig’s character on Saturday Night Live where she’s got the little hands.
Pete Wright:
Yes, on the Lawrence Welk Show.
Rob Kubasko:
He’s got little feet.
Pete Wright:
Okay, all right. Where are they going?
Rob Kubasko:
Hey, but look — he’s got the issue. This has been on multiple seasons. We’ve talked about this. The baseball cap is the MCU’s covert disguise of all time. Just put a baseball cap on.
Pete Wright:
Always throw the baseball cap on.
Rob Kubasko:
Nobody will recognize you. You’re fine.
Pete Wright:
Right? And where is he going? Well, he’s going to an Apple Store.
Rob Kubasko:
Yay.
Pete Wright:
This is the thing — it’s not the Apple Store in the Tower City Center, because there is no Apple Store in the Tower City Center mall.
Rob Kubasko:
No.
Pete Wright:
Instead, they shot all the interiors of the Apple Store and the Genius Bar at the Topanga Apple Store in California. And then we get into product placement land. I’m so glad the MacBook Pro gets a featured placement. How would you like to talk about how wrong everything in this scene is?
Rob Kubasko:
Oh, okay, wait. Can I just say two things before we dive into that? One — this is in Cleveland. Have we talked about this in a previous thing? This is also where a part of The Avengers is shot.
Pete Wright:
Yes.
Rob Kubasko:
The Loki scene. Okay. Two — do you know how much my heart swelled seeing the old Genius Bar logo lit up on the wall?
Pete Wright:
I know.
Rob Kubasko:
I miss that so much, those days.
Pete Wright:
Oh. I’m just so glad we get another five minutes where we get to talk about it again next week. It’s just — does my heart good.
Rob Kubasko:
So for those of you who don’t know — okay, so when you see that logo that looks like the three atoms, the orbits, that’s the original Genius Bar logo when the first Apple stores opened, back in 2001 and throughout the 2000s. They had an actual place — like a bar you’d sit at on a nice bar stool, and you could just chat with the geniuses. And I did that a lot.
Pete Wright:
I did that a lot.
Rob Kubasko:
I was Norm at my local Apple store — Cheers reference. It was such a great thing, and now that doesn’t even exist. That’s outside of what the current model is.
Pete Wright:
Well, this is just an opportunity to talk about when movies take you out of them because they do something that you should just be able to let go, but you can’t. The floor computers, the floor Macs in an Apple Store, all run what they call MDM, Mac demo mode. The USB ports, external drives, any of the external ports — they’re all locked down behind Gatekeeper. Demo Macs do not cooperate with arbitrary USB sticks. They would never be able to do this. The movie is totally lying to me, but I love it anyway. It’s okay. We’re in it for the product placement. It was easy to write around. If it weren’t for the fact that they needed to get some logos on the screen, it would have been easy to fix.
And still, they managed to launch the stick. And the stick is important because when the stick goes online, that starts our nine-minute ticking clock. We need the ticking clock in order to get us to the other end of this scene and start the chase.
Rob Kubasko:
And that’s it. It lights up, cars leave the SHIELD headquarters, and away we go.
Pete Wright:
And away we go. We have begun. We need to point out — she does say at one point, at the very end, “Somebody’s trying to hide something. The drive is protected by some sort of AI. It keeps rewriting itself to counter my commands. The person who developed this is slightly smarter than me. Slightly.” I’m so glad that line didn’t get broken up by our minutes, because now we have a teaser. We’re hanging a flag on some future entity that we’re going to see — the AI that rewrites itself.
Matthew Fox:
I also want to say — as dumb as the whole “go to use a computer to do this high-level AI thing” is, it is, Rob, forgive me again for knuckling in on your territory, another cool reference to a scene that we’ve seen in a number of earlier action movies. The most recent to this one, I think, would have been the first season of Heroes, in which we have a videotape that people need to watch.
Rob Kubasko:
Oh, good call.
Matthew Fox:
And so what do you do? You go to a VHS store, you go to a TV store, and you pop it in and watch it right there. It’s just a fun way to see that now get updated to this. And there’s something else I think I’ve seen where they go to a place like this and load up a YouTube video — because, again, they don’t want to watch it on their home computer. It’s a cool way of not being tracked, and it’s fun to see them doing this version of it, even if the tech makes no sense.
Rob Kubasko:
There’s a little bit of a Johnny Mnemonic. Maybe a little Strange Days.
Pete Wright:
Oh yeah.
Rob Kubasko:
There’s a little things in part of this.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Hackers, I’ll just say Hackers.
Rob Kubasko:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
It’s a great beat, and it does get us started into the chase. We’re fully in it. The movie has made the turn. We are now in full-on spycraft. Let’s see how long that lasts. Anything else? Any other beats you guys want to talk about before we move through? Next week we meet Aaron.
Matthew Fox:
I just want to say that I’ve enjoyed this, but the last couple weeks have been rough for at least one portion of the Marvel fandom. And because of something that has not happened for going on three weeks now — I’m gonna put down my flag. I am committed to this hope. I hope everyone else is committed to this hope. That by the time we get to next week’s episodes, the New York Mets will have won a game.
Rob Kubasko:
Oh my God.
Matthew Fox:
Because they haven’t won in two weeks. It’s a twelve game losing streak. Twelve games. Peralta has had great starts. Nolan McLean has had great start after great start.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Matthew Fox:
They just can’t hit.
Pete Wright:
We’re just gonna slowly turn the volume down on Matthew’s track.
Matthew Fox:
What’s going on? This is a conspiracy theory.
Rob Kubasko:
You know, when you look at the stats and you’re like — there’s this one episode and it’s just hard cut, everyone drops out, right here.
Pete Wright:
The long bait.
Rob Kubasko:
That’s it.
Matthew Fox:
What I appreciate is that Pete hasn’t learned from me. Both Pete and I have the controls, so to speak, and I would have just kicked Pete out of the chat.
Pete Wright:
It was the Mets. Yeah, right, that’s true. That’s true, mercenary. All right, this has been great fun.
Rob Kubasko:
You needed a caltrop.
Pete Wright:
We need a podcast caltrop. A pod drop. Oh, for crying out loud.
Matthew Fox:
That was terrible, sorry.
Pete Wright:
That was so terrible.
Matthew Fox:
Welcome back, Rob.
Pete Wright:
Hey, this has been so fun.
Rob Kubasko:
Hey, thanks.
Pete Wright:
Thank you everybody for hanging out and checking out the stuff that we do. Let me just go ahead and say — if you aren’t on it yet, head over to TruStory FM and look for the shows of The Ethical Panda, because over there on Star Wars Generations podcast, they’re talking about Maul: Shadow Lord. I have been lucky enough to be a guest on that show, and hopefully I will be again. It’s a crazy good show. It is much better than I expected it to be.
Matthew Fox:
Really, really good show. It is so much better.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, I am very, very into it. So looking forward to more of that. And you can find Rob right here. This is what Rob does all the time, is just right here on —
Rob Kubasko:
This is what I do.
Pete Wright:
— the Marvel Movie Minute.
Rob Kubasko:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
And I will once again promote myself by saying go to your friendly neighborhood Amazon and search for my novel — my novella — Lattice: A Novel, if you’re into a little light science fiction. I offer that to you. It’s my newest thing, and it’s not a podcast, so I’d love it for you to check it out. That’s all I got. That’s all we’ve got. So thanks everybody. Thanks for your time and attention. We’ll see you next week for minutes 56 through 60.
Matthew Fox:
We’ve got the teamwork to make the dream work. Let’s go. Let’s go, Mets.
Rob Kubasko:
Bye.
