The role of Army Pathfinders originated with the U.S. military during World War II. These specialized soldiers were parachuted into Europe ahead of the D-Day invasion. Their mission: establish and operate drop zones, pickup zones, and landing sites for airborne troops and air supply operations in support of ground unit commanders. They were the first soldiers deployed into enemy territory and the last to leave.
Our guest today is one of the first female Army Pathfinders.
Master Sergeant (Ret.) Erinn Watkins served in the U.S. Army for 29 years. She’s an accomplished pilot, having flown and tested some of the most advanced Army helicopters in operation. She’s also an esteemed administrator, having helped to build, develop, and implement the Human Resources Management System used to track Soldier and civilian data for the National Guard Bureau.
Working across such a diverse functional spectrum requires an incredible set of skills. She joins Carrie Fox to lay out just a bit of the history that has led her to writing her new book, “PathfYnder: How I Use Emotional Control to Build Success and Get What I Want.”
Learn more about the book and pre-order today, and connect with Erinn on LinkedIn right here. Our great thanks to Erinn for joining us this week on the show!
Episode Transcript
Carrie Fox:
Hi there and welcome to the Mission Forward Podcast, where each week we bring you a thought-provoking and perspective shifting conversation on the power of communication.
I’m Carrie Fox, your host and CEO of Mission Partners, a social impact communications firm and certified B Corporation. And on this season of the show, we are talking about the role of storytelling in social change. Today’s guest has a brand new book that provides incredible insights on the power of emotional control and it’s her story that compelled me to invite her onto the show this season. Master Sergeant Erinn Watkins is a retired army master sergeant with 29 years of service. She’s one of the first female army pathfinders. And her new book, which comes out in May, is called Pathfinder: How I Used Emotional Control to Build Success and Get What I Want. Wow. Okay. So there’s a lot that we are going to learn from Erinn today, but as Erinn and I were getting ready to start in on this show, she was previewing with me some of the insights from her book. And I will say, hold on, for what I know will be an incredibly emotional, insightful, powerful, wonderful conversation with someone that I have really loved getting to know and look forward to getting to know more.
Erinn, thank you so much for being with us today.
Erinn Watkins:
Oh, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
Carrie Fox:
Erinn, I know there was a lot of emotion that went into writing this book, but we will get to that in a little bit. And I know you’ll share quite a few insights with us today, but let’s start where we always do, with a story. I’d love to learn a little bit more about who you are, how you came to become one of the first female army pathfinders, which I am certain came with many challenges along the way and many wonderful opportunities along the way. But how did you find yourself in such an incredible position?
Erinn Watkins:
I’ve always been the kind of person to want to do my best. I’ve always wanted to be my best self, whatever that looked like. I was always competitive athletically, academically. I remember in school, I always had to finish the test first or get the highest score. School was not a challenge to me, but I felt obligated to do my best. So that carried over into the military. I was always looking for that next thing, what else can I do to improve myself and to help others? So I got the opportunity to be stationed at Fort Benning Georgia. Fort Benning is home of the Airborne, where they teach soldiers and other military personnel how to jump out of planes. And I found myself assigned actually to the Airborne School. And the first year I was there, I was not Airborne qualified, but I was perfectly content wearing my beret.
I had my Airborne tab and I was just fine. What changed my mind was that when once you’re Airborne qualified, you get an additional stipend, which was back then was $150 and a month. And to me, that was daycare because my son was… Yeah, my son was like six months old at the time. So I think, let me rethink this. And I worked at the battalion S1 shop, it’s like an admin department. And I remember, even though I wasn’t Airborne qualified, my battalion sergeant major wouldn’t talk to me. He wouldn’t speak to me, he wouldn’t entertain anything I had to say because I was not Airborne qualified. And they called that being a leg. So I was a leg, I didn’t care, didn’t matter to me because I still did my job. So via instructors from the other companies, we call them black hats, the black hats would come to the S1 shop and they would kind of take shots on whose company I was coming to. Are you coming to my company? No, I’m not.
But one day, one of the instructors invited me to go and view the training and he took me to each branch. There was Airborne School is three weeks long and you have, the first week is ground week where they teach you how to fall. You spend all day rolling around in a sawdust pit, get sawdust everywhere. So I went to that and then got to watch the tower week, which is where they teach them how to jump out of the tower, the motion or the performance of jumping out of an airplane. And I actually got to ride in the aircraft and watch them jump out the door and like, okay, well, it’s not so bad, let me just give it a shot. So mind you, I had been working at Battalion S1 for a year already, at least a year. So they knew me, but I thought, silly me, that I could go to this course, go to school and just blend in because there were 400 students per class and 100 students per squad.
So surely me, I could just blend in. Not a chance. They called me out the first day. Oh my gosh. So I start training and I started having visitors. And what I didn’t know is that when you have a visitor, you have to do pushups, you have to do 10 pushups per visitor. And I had five visitors one day and they were all Airborne instructors. You’re like, “Specialist Watkins, we just come to check on you, see how you’re doing. By the way, do some pushups.” So that’s what I did. And I got very good at pushups after that. My roster number, so 400 students is a lot to keep track of. And my roster number in Airborne School was zero seven zero. So guess what they called me? They called me Double O Seven. “Come here Double O Seven.” Throughout even, not really harassment, but just friendly.
I ended up being the enlisted honor graduate of my Airborne class. Out of 400 students, I was the honor graduate. And so after I did that, I was like, “Huh, what else can I do? What else is out there?” And I found out about Pathfinder School, I’m like, “Okay, what is that?” By the time I got to Fort Benning, the first female had just finished Pathfinder School. And that was awesome to me. And so I was like, okay, well, that’s what I want to do. But I didn’t get to go just yet. Another female went through and I bugged them for a year.
I would like to go to Pathfinder School. And they kept giving me obstacle after obstacle, “You got to do this. If you want to go, you got to do that.” And I was doing it until the one thing I couldn’t do was pass a company run. So the company run was every Friday, we ran as a company, but me being as short as I was, my legs was so short, there’s nothing I could do to make my legs move any faster with all those males. And that’s when I decided, let me check the regulation and see what the requirements are. And I got to go. So I showed up Pathfinder School, I was it, of course, the only female, but that didn’t concern me. It wasn’t an issue for me. I just thought of myself as another student and not recognizing that I was the third.
That wasn’t a thing. I just saw this school I wanted to go to and I wanted to do it. So I show up first week because it’s a two-week course. And so the first week, we spent learning how to inspect a sling load. So let me tell you a little bit about Pathfinder School. It originated with the American forces during World War II, where specialized soldiers called Pathfinders were dropped into Europe in advance of the D-Day invasion to set up and operate drop zones, pickup zones and landing sites for airborne and air resupply operations in support of the ground unit commander, laying down the groundwork for the critical steps that would ensure the success of the American military. Pathfinders were the first ones in and the last ones out. Pathfinder school in of itself has a 50% failure rate. Had no idea.
But that wasn’t my concern because they would say, “Well, there’s a lot of math.” So what? I’m good at math. It’s really difficult. So what? I haven’t been there yet. So the first week, we learned how to inspect actual sling loads, they would via sling loaded Jeep or whatever piece of equipment. And you had a certain amount of time to inspect this equipment and you had to find the gigs. Gigs were deficiencies that the instructors would put into the rig. And you have to find them, use the proper nomenclature within a certain amount of time. And a lot of people fail that part.
Carrie Fox:
And it’s almost like you’re set up to fail, Erinn, with that kind complexity, right?
Erinn Watkins:
Yes.
Carrie Fox:
Sounds very difficult.
Erinn Watkins:
Half my class failed that, and the first week, the other students, which were all males, were pretty cordial towards me until I was still in there, week two. And so week two, we had to take what we learned and apply it to an actual exercise. And because Pathfinder School is leadership oriented, the minimum rank that you could be to go to Pathfinder school was E4. And I was in E4 when I went. And it was just my responsibility to take this exercise or this mission and use my skills as a leader and get them to accomplish the mission within a certain amount of time. As long as we all tested, because everyone got a chance to rotate out in leadership positions. If we finished that day, we could all go home, but we were allowed to bring any gear that we needed to sleep if we camped out overnight.
So myself, I just took a shelter half and a sleeping bag. I mean, that’s all I needed. It’s all I carried. So I had my rucksack and those two items. So while we were doing these missions, each person was assigned a task. And for that task, we had to carry a piece of equipment. And that could be a radio, which was, I think we had a radio called a PRC 77, PRC 77 to the lightest thing was a tempeh. And so we’re going around, doing all these missions throughout the day. But what I noticed is that there was a five ton truck that was meeting us at every mission site. I’m like, okay, cool. I’m carrying my gear. Why do I have to carry my gear? I can just put it on the truck. It was the same truck, same driver. So I didn’t ask anybody.
I just put my rucksack on the back of the truck. And so the rest of the missions, all I was carrying was a tempeh or yeah. Turns out that that’s what made them upset with me because I wasn’t carrying my gear. I had no idea. So I didn’t get to test the first day. So the second day, I’m thinking, please don’t… Because it was a team leader and assistant team leader. I was like, “Please don’t make me the team leader. Just make me the assistant so I could just do my part. Just get it done.” No, they made me the team leader and I’m like, “Okay, fine, let’s just get it done.” And when it was my turn, oh my God, they all collectively decided to, I don’t know, can I say this? Brain fart. They all just collectively decided to just drag feet on my mission.
I’m like, “What?” [inaudible 00:13:40] I got to watch what I say. But this was just totally irregular and I’m on the clock, what is going on? So yeah, so turns out that I failed. I failed the mission and because I went over time, but I told the instructors, I said, “You see what happened. You see what they did. You need to fix it.” I didn’t use those words, but that’s what I was thinking. So it turns out that they did fix it. They allowed me to retest and I passed. Sure did. So then we had to take the written test, and for the written test, you start off with a thousand points and they deduct for the errors of mistakes. I passed the written test.
So now, okay, I’m finished. Now it’s time to graduate, take the group photo. And so I was standing around just chit-chatting, waiting around, and somebody came and asked me, “Specialist Watkins, aren’t you going to take the photo?” Nobody told me they were taking it. So that’s why if you look at my graduation photo, that’s why I’m standing on the end by the door because I had just been told that they’re taking the picture.
But after that, it’s just, I was ready to do something else. What else can I do?
Carrie Fox:
You were learning some lessons, it sounds like, the hard way. It’s almost like, did you have someone in your corner when you were in the military?
Erinn Watkins:
Here and there, I did. And I had to pick and choose those people. I started looking at them as being on my team.
And I had to pick and choose, how do I identify the people who are on my team? And they can be anyone. And I decided that anyone who was not against me, was on my team. If I had to go to your office, turn in a document and you processed it for me, you were on my team. Simple as that. If you answered my question, if you just did your job, you were on my team. My team had a bench, I had people that were on the field, and I even kicked people off my team. I was like, “Nope, you made a big infraction. You’re done.” And literally, I would review my team and see, “Okay, you can stay. You can stay. Nope, you got to go. Nope.”
Carrie Fox:
You’re building your support network.
Erinn Watkins:
Yes, that’s exactly it.
Carrie Fox:
Yeah. So tell me a little bit, because this book title is so interesting to me, there’s so much behind it, Erinn, how you used emotional control. Talk to me about that. I can only imagine how important emotional control was in your position, but when you had that aha of that will be my primary tool.
Erinn Watkins:
I’ve been thinking about that, actually. When was the first time that I actually used emotional control? And it was actually in Pathfinder school. And when I was doing during the first week, during the inspection portion, there was one station. Now I was missing one per station, one gig per station, and you can only miss so many. So I was running out of things to miss. So I got to this one station and the instructor, he tells me, he says, “You’re not going to find these gigs.” And I thought he was joking, so I laughed. He goes, “No.” He said, “Really, seriously, you’re not going to find these gigs.” So what he was in essence trying to do was get in my head. I totally shut it out. I went through my sequence, top to bottom, left to right, I found all his gigs, used the right normal, and moved on to the next thing.
Carrie Fox:
Yes, you did.
Erinn Watkins:
Yeah. And I’ve been trying to unpack that piece. Where did the emotional control start? And that was it. There were many, many times when I was in a situation and I could literally just disconnect in real time from what was going on.
I remember distinctly doing that. It’s like reading a map or a chart or if you see a display, an overhead display, that’s what I’m looking at. When I’m looking at the situation, in my mind, that’s what I visualized, an overhead display of what I’m dealing with. This is the situation. What do I need to do? What do I want? That’s so important. What do you want? I had to decide ahead of, what do I want and how am I going to get there? So what I would do is map out from my current situation to my instate, what do I want and how am I going to get there? So I would come up with different things and map them out like a flow chart. Does this get me what I want? Can I say this? No, she’s not going to like that.
What else could I say to her to get her to do what I want? Okay, let me try that. And I would map that out to its conclusion. And if I didn’t get there, I would start over, let me start here. And I would do that each time. And then I would verify, and in my mind, I would go back over it, this is what I want. This is where I am, this is what I want. Is this going to get me there? Yes. Is this going to get… And I would keep doing that four or five times, however many times it would take, in my head to get me what I want.
Carrie Fox:
Erinn, there’s so much about human nature that can’t be controlled. And yet, it sounds like you were really taking a scientific approach to what are the factors that can be mapped out for me to manage through this situation and get where I want to go?
Erinn Watkins:
Exactly.
Carrie Fox:
And that’s a very relevant approach to probably everyone who’s listening has probably been in that moment of thinking, how do I get from here to there?
Erinn Watkins:
Yes. Oh my gosh, that’s so important. There’s a scene in a movie, Terminator, I think it’s Terminator, where he goes into the bar, I think. And you see he goes through these different phrases that he could say to the guy until he picks one, “Okay, I’m going to say that,” and tells the guy. That’s what I was doing on the spot.
Carrie Fox:
In pretty intense situations too, I’m sure.
Erinn Watkins:
Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. And there’ve been a couple times when it’s been, oh my gosh, so intense in my mind. Sometimes my mind just goes so fast, it process because I’m looking at the person, I’m looking at their face, I’m listening to their words. What is their tone of voice? What are they saying to me? Are they giving me what I want? Because I know what I want and I’m waiting to hear that. I haven’t heard it yet, so I’m going to stay in this until I do. And I’m readjusting my words. I’m trying different approaches. I’m doing all that on the spot.
Carrie Fox:
So let’s talk about body language and the role that body language plays in getting what you want. You were telling me a little bit before, I’ll just turn that to you as an open question, wherever you’d like to start.
Erinn Watkins:
I practice a lot on my own responses to stress or situations. And I wanted to recognize what it felt like for me to be in a relaxed state. Because when I’m talking to someone, I don’t want my facial expression, I don’t want my tone of voice to distract from my message. I want you to hear what I have to say and receive the information. So what I would do is I would practice, I would sit at my desk and practice what it felt like, have a relaxed face, and I would remember that. And so when I’m in those situations, I could tell, “Hey, Erinn, relax your face.” And I literally, I could feel my forehead relax, my cheeks, my face, and at the same time, I would look at the other person and I’m looking at their face and their tone of voice and what they’re saying.
And I could tell if that person is feeling anxious or agitated, I can readjust what I’m saying or just kind of approach them differently or say something else to make sure. Because my goal is to get what I want and I’m going to say, or I’m going to say what I need to say for this person to give me what I want. At the same time, if I’m in a confrontation or a conflict and I know I’m trying to prove my point and we’re having this discussion, I can look at the other person, is their face wrinkled? Are their eyes wide open? All the signs of anxiety and stress within them, why is your face so wrinkled? Are you agitated? Oh, I’m winning. I’m winning this discussion right now. I just make sure that I’m calm, my tone of voice is calm and I make sure that I’m in control of my own responses. I mean, I can only do so much, but at least I wasn’t the fault. I wasn’t at fault for agitating that person.
Carrie Fox:
There’s a line that I love. We use, I probably say it on a daily basis at this point, but it’s not what you say, it’s what people hear. And to your point of you want people to be able to receive your message, that is more than the words coming out of any of our mouths. That is everything about how we are carrying ourselves, how we are delivering that message. How are we having eye contact with the person we are speaking with? So much is wrapped up in that. And I find it so fascinating that you were telling me a story earlier about the photo that’s on your website and the difference between how relaxed and in control your face was and then what was happening with your fist.
Erinn Watkins:
So in the army, you get to take what’s called a DA photo, and that’s your photo of you in your dress uniform with all your awards and decorations. And this goes in your official records. So when people want to review your file for say, we want to appoint Carrie as our next battalion commander. Well, what does Carrie look like? Let me look at her records before they even talk to you. They’re going to look at your records and say, “Okay, we look at her photo, what does she look like? Is she in shape? That means she’s doing her physical training, she’s taking care of herself, she’s being healthy. What kind of schools has she been in? How has she been? Has she had any good evaluation?” We want to look at all this. How do you look on paper before they even talk to you.
So when I was in Virginia, I was stationed at the National Guard Bureau and one of my jobs was reviewing promotion packets for E8s that were competing for E9. So I got to review a lot of packets and I looked at a lot of photos.
Carrie Fox:
E9, by the way, highest level, correct?
Erinn Watkins:
Highest level in the army was E9 and now is the E8. I made it to E8. So I’m reviewing all these packets, I’m looking at these photos and oh my God, she’s got on red lipstick. Oh my God, she’s grinning from ear to ear. Oh my God, what is wrong with him? Oh my goodness. I know if I’m doing it, if a board member’s looking at the photo, they’re going to be thinking all these other things as well.
Carrie Fox:
Perceptions.
Erinn Watkins:
Right. Just don’t know. So my thinking was to eliminate all that, I wanted to have a pleasant look on my face. I didn’t want a grin. I didn’t want to have any red lipstick, just neutral, just look pleasant, no distractions. That’s what I called it. No distractions. So I go down to make an appointment to take my photo. And where I worked at, the National Guard Bill, it was so stressful. Oh my gosh. It was just the conflict. It was just enormous. But for these few moments, I could separate from that. And I’m in this room, I’m taking my photo, so all the noise is out there. Right now, I have some peace. So in the photo, I’ve decided in order to have this pleasant look on my face, what could I think about so that it would show on my face? And at that moment, I was thinking about sweet potatoes.
Carrie Fox:
I love that.
Erinn Watkins:
It’s my favorite food. So I was thinking sweet potatoes, and I liked the photo, my expression, I was very pleased with the photo. But then once I got it, I looked at it and my hand was in a fist. Oh, I was so disappointed. I was so angry with myself that I let my emotions show and now the secret was out. I was very disappointed. But that’s an expression of what it means to have emotional control. It’s that look on my face. But I had this fist because I knew I was going to have to go back into the fight.
Carrie Fox:
There’s only so much, I guess, you can hide how you’re actually feeling. Maybe we can hide it on our face, but we can’t hide it in other places.
Erinn Watkins:
Yeah, sure can’t.
Carrie Fox:
These incredible experiences you’ve had, have resulted in a book that’s coming out this spring. And I’m curious if you can summarize what folks will find when they open that book, what you hope people see when they open that book.
Erinn Watkins:
I want people to know that the answers are always out there. Whatever you’re going through, the answers are out there. You just have to find it, it’s out there waiting for you. It’s out there. It’s right around the corner. All you have to do is go right around the corner. You’re almost there. You’re going to find it. It’s right there. And sometimes people quit or they give up and it’s right there within your reach, but you just don’t know it. And I want people to know that there’s no reason ever because the answers are always there. You got to keep calling. You got to keep reaching people. You got to keep talking.
You got to not be afraid to ask for help. Not be afraid to receive help because the help may come, but you got to learn to receive it. Those are things that I had to learn. That’s just the main thing for me. It’s just the answers. Especially dealing with mental health, when I retired, I was diagnosed with major depressive disorder and I’m now a hundred percent disabled, but I’m managing. I want to show people how I got from not leaving home for two years to now I’m teaching dance class.
I started golfing. I want to show people how I did that. It took me two years to go from staying home. Two years, I got through the day by watching TV all day. I would get up and my day went by what was on TV at that time. And when it was time to go to bed, I wasn’t sleepy. I was afraid to go to sleep. You remember Freddy Krueger? Remember how people were afraid to go to sleep? That was me. I was afraid to go to sleep because I knew I was going to sleep for an hour. And then what? I would wake up and then, oh my God, how am I going to get through the night?
Two years of that. But then I’ve always known that I could fix it, whatever the fix was, but I needed to find the answer. How do I find the answer? By asking for help. And then once you get the help, you received the help. And what helped me with my sleep was that was the main thing that was so limiting for me, was the sleep. If I could just get some sleep, maybe I could get better. So I talked to a sleep therapist and the main thing he said was like, give it 30 days. He said, “It’s going to get worse before it gets better, but give it 30 days and see what happens.” And so I had sleep routine, did just what he said. I gave myself 30 days and we’ll see what happens. I gave him my best effort and next thing you know, I’m sleeping for three hours, four hours. I’m like, “Okay, I’m not afraid to sleep anymore.”
Carrie Fox:
Erinn what’s really sitting with me as I’m looking at your beautiful face, smiling back at me over this Zoom video is your story from a few minutes ago about how you just wanted to have a pleasant face in that photo. But now what I see is such a joyful face. It feels like you’ve got this. What I can only imagine how big of a weight you had pushing down on your shoulders.
Erinn Watkins:
Yes. Oh my God.
Carrie Fox:
But I cannot see that weight right now as I look at you. And it looks like you have found both the support that has helped you connect back with yourself. And I just want to acknowledge that I am certain that journey was a difficult one, and I just am so delighted seeing the smile on your face.
Erinn Watkins:
Oh, thank you. Oh, let me tell you something about that. Because throughout those two years, I was very angry. I was angry. I was mad at everybody. Didn’t matter who you were, family, friends, passing. I hated happy people. If you were happy, what is there to be happy about? That was my attitude for two years. But then in talking to my counselor, she was saying, “It’s helpful to smile even if you don’t want to smile. Smile anyway.” I tried that. It didn’t work so well. I’m angry. I don’t feel like you’re smiling. So what I did was I started watching, there’s a show called Wipe Out and hilarious because people are going through this big obstacle course. Oh my gosh, it’s a riot. And I never laughed so hard in so long. Oh my gosh. And now I remember, oh, that’s what it’s like to smile.
Carrie Fox:
Oh.
Erinn Watkins:
That’s what I did to-
Carrie Fox:
Reconnect with that. That’s so good.
Erinn Watkins:
Wipe out did it.
Carrie Fox:
I can say from experience, I too suffer with depression and anxiety. And I have written a bit about this publicly to this community that as a parent, as a business owner, to feel a lot of different weights on us at any given point can sometimes feel like it’s just so overwhelming that I don’t want to get out of bed sometimes. And yet, having the ability to speak and connect with folks, to find that really so many of us have experienced depression and anxiety at some level, and that what I am finding is the best thing is to talk about it and to share and to realize that our experiences, while certainly very, very different, that there’s also some universality to it and that we need one another. Right? Humans, we are built to stay connected to one another and to support one another.
Erinn Watkins:
Yes,
Carrie Fox:
It feels, Erinn, like your book is going to be so important and valuable on so many levels, but for you to have been willing to share your story, can do so much for people who are experiencing some of the same feelings that you have experienced.
Erinn Watkins:
And that’s exactly what I want to do. Because a lot of the things that people are dealing with, the anxiety, the panic, oh my God, panic was a huge, huge one. How did I deal with panic? Because panic comes, it just falls from the sky. I used a technique called grounding. I remember the first time I panicked, I was in a parking lot and I thought my car was stolen because I didn’t remember where I parked. And I found my car, got in the car and I was sitting there and then it just fell from the sky. Just panic. What do I do? Okay. Oh my gosh, anxiety. Oh, it was through the roof. But then from group therapy, I remember the grounding. So I just started looking around and naming stuff like, here’s a white truck, there’s a red car, there’s somebody walk. I would just name stuff that I saw and then gradually I came back and then I knew, okay, now I know what I need to do next. This stuff works. Yeah.
Carrie Fox:
Erinn, I just looked at the time and I realized that we have been on this call for way more than we had intended. And I think it’s good. It’s a reminder that you and your story are so compelling and I’m so glad for folks to be able to get access to your book in a couple months. I know it’s not out yet, but where can people go to get a copy of it?
Erinn Watkins:
Well, I have a website. It’s called erinnspeaks.com. And it’s because I’m going to start doing public speaking and motivational speaking this year. So once the book is published, there’ll be a link there for people to purchase @erinnspeaks.com.
Carrie Fox:
Great. Well, retired Army Master Sergeant Erinn Watkins. Thank you so much for being with us today, for giving us a sneak peek into your book and into your incredible story. I’m so grateful for you being here on the Mission Forward podcast.
Erinn Watkins:
I’m so grateful to have the opportunity to talk about and to share my story. So thank you.
Carrie Fox:
And that brings us to the end of this episode of Mission Forward. Thanks for tuning in today. If you are stewing on what we discussed here today, or if you heard something that’s going to stick with you, drop me a line at Carrie Mission Partners and let me know what’s got you thinking. And if you have thoughts for where we should go in future shows, I would love to hear that too. Mission Forward is produced with the support of Sadie Lockhart in association with the True Story Team. Engineering by Pete Wright. If your podcast app allows for ratings and reviews, I hope you’ll consider doing just that for this show. But the best thing you can do, the support Mission forward is simply to share the show with a friend or colleague. Thanks to your support, and we’ll see you next time.
