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Matthew:
Hello, and welcome to this episode of Star Wars Generations Podcast. Friends, we have some exciting news. As you’ve probably heard, there is a new Star Wars show coming out August 8th. I mentioned that we were just going to go every other week until we have more content coming out.
Well, it turns out we have more content coming up pretty soon: The Ninth Jedi. That’s building off one of the stories from the Star Wars Visions episodes, so we’ll probably be bringing you some preliminary content about that, and then going back to episode to episode. But until then, we are still making our way through The Clone Wars.
We are still talking about season five, and we’re talking about one of the most important Ahsoka arcs, where the Jedi have some differing opinions about where she should be. They kick her out, then they want her back in, and she leaves on her own. You know, it’s a real “did I break up with you, did you break up with me” situation. Ahsoka gets the last word. How can I ever talk about Ahsoka without bringing in Erin? Erin, we first met because you were a huge Ahsoka fan. You wanted to talk about Ahsoka on the podcast with me. You’ve been a fantastic co-host, but these episodes especially, I knew there was no way we’re doing this without you. Yes. Yeah.
Erin:
These episodes, I’ve told multiple people today, I consider some of the most important episodes of The Clone Wars. Not even just for Ahsoka, but also for Anakin. And I feel like these episodes push him so much further away from the Jedi. It helps fill in some of the gaps between Revenge of the Sith and Attack of the Clones.
Matthew:
Fully agree. Fully agree. To me, these episodes are essential for Ahsoka, for Anakin, and also just for the Jedi themselves. In terms of better understanding, I think both why the characters in the world, and that’s Anakin, but also a lot of the clones and others, but also why we the watchers should be starting to really see that the Jedi, as good as they are in many ways, as important as they are in many ways, how really kind of lost they are, and how much they do not handle this well, really speaks to that, I think.
Erin:
Yeah, absolutely.
Matthew:
So for those who don’t remember these episodes, let me give a quick summary. Of course, we’re talking about season five, episodes 17 through 20 of The Clone Wars. Those are called “Sabotage,” “The Jedi Who Knew Too Much,” “To Catch a Jedi,” and “The Wrong Jedi.” It’s a story in four parts with a couple of different tones. If you haven’t seen them, I’d strongly recommend pressing pause and going to watch them. But if you just need to be reminded about them, or haven’t seen them but really just want to hear us talk about it, fair enough. Here’s the quick summary.
At this point, we are fairly far into the war. Ahsoka is still technically a Padawan, but has been given more and more authority. There are times where she gets to go and have her own mission. There are a number of clones who look to her, she’s not a general, she’s a commander, but still she’s not the fresh-faced kid from the academy anymore. She’s someone the others treat as a superior, and they take orders from her and all that.
There’s a bombing of the Jedi Temple. Some Jedi are killed, a number of non-Jedi are killed, and it stirs up a lot of questions about what happened and why. We start with an investigation, and people start to look into it more, and pretty soon it starts to look like there’s a lot of evidence pointing towards Ahsoka. The story is very clear, it’s mostly told from Ahsoka’s point of view, so it never lets us think that maybe Ahsoka did it. One of the most damning things that happens is that while Ahsoka is talking to a witness who might well incriminate her, the witness is killed, clearly through Force usage, through Force choking, and it’s done in a way where Ahsoka is the only person in the room with them. This is one of the things that most makes everyone around her think that Ahsoka is the one who did this. I really appreciate the way they show that, because instead of just showing us the results and leaving us wondering if Ahsoka is really the one doing this, it’s very clear that Ahsoka isn’t doing it. We’re supposed to know that’s not her, but we’re supposed to understand why everyone else is against her.
Anakin’s trying to defend her, Obi-Wan wants to defend her, but a lot of people are really not sure what to think. Eventually it gets to a point, and here’s one of these times where I understand what the story was trying to say, but when I think about it in our own terms, it feels a little different. We’ll talk about that in a second. Basically, the Jedi want to try her on their own, but the authorities, the police, and the Chancellor, who probably has very mixed motives here because he wants to make this harder for Anakin, insist that it is not right for the Jedi to try her themselves. Because of the law that only the Jedi can rule on a Jedi, they have to kick her out of the order in order to do this.
In this situation, where we know that Ahsoka is innocent, I think, of course, we’re like, no, this is dumb. When I think about members of the military or members of the police saying that they’re the only ones who can investigate their own members, that doesn’t really sound like a good idea. But it speaks to just how broken this whole system is, that the Jedi don’t trust the authorities, the authorities don’t trust the Jedi, and there’s no way to put her on leave. There’s no kind of, because it’s not even thought of that this would happen. It’s a system that breaks because it’s so brittle, it doesn’t have room to bend.
So she is basically told she has to leave the Jedi. Anakin hates it but goes along with it, and she realizes the only thing she can do is prove herself innocent, because otherwise she’s facing some truly horrible punishment, possibly even execution. In the course of doing that, her old friend Barriss Offee has been helping her this whole time. Barriss, we may remember, is another Padawan she was very close with, whose master was Luminara. Compared to Anakin and Ahsoka, who were always the ones who did everything by the book, everything was perfect, and she and Barriss had some interesting interactions where Barriss seems like a much better Padawan, but also Anakin and Ahsoka were able to go against the grain and think outside the box in ways that Barriss wasn’t. They formed a good friendship, and it seems for a while like Barriss is really helping her, but eventually we come to realize, big spoilers, Barriss is actually the one who did the bombing.
Here’s another way it’s like a good indictment of the Jedi, and we’ll talk more about this in a second. She gives the speech I wish Pong Krell had given, whereas Pong Krell is just like, “No, actually, I’m on the dark side, wahaha.” She is clearly going to the dark side, but she doesn’t know it. She really believes that the Jedi have lost their way. True, this war is horrible and is bringing terrible chaos to everybody. True, and the Jedi are complicit in that, and the Jedi have to be stopped. True. She’s one of those villains where it’s like, she’s killing innocent people, that’s not cool, but every critique she makes of the system is straight-up correct.
Having proven that it was her, and gotten everyone else to see it and acknowledge it, the Jedi are like, “Oh, we’re so sorry, we shouldn’t have done this.” Anakin is very apologetic, especially, and he hands her back her lightsabers. When he tries to hand her back her Padawan braid, there’s this really beautiful scene where she reaches out for his hand and then closes his hand around it, basically telling him goodbye, that she has to walk away because she doesn’t know what it means that the Jedi were willing to kick her out.
Part of it seems to be her own self-doubt, but a lot of it is also like, I don’t want to run back to this organization that just kicked me out. I think it’s very relatable. There’s so much about these episodes to talk about, but I think most importantly, for everyone who’s been asking why, if Ahsoka is so important to Anakin, wasn’t she there to stop him from falling to the dark side by the time of Revenge of the Sith, this answers that. This doesn’t fill a plot hole, it is the answer to a question that’s never really been a plot hole, because this was the answer. It ties up that knot of why she and Anakin lost contact.
Erin:
Yeah, yeah, there’s so much in these episodes, especially for her, and I feel like her decision to not rejoin the order, I mean, it’s like you said, doubting herself a little bit, but honestly, I think she’s lost so much trust in just the rest of the Jedi and the order as a whole, really. Like, Anakin was like, “Why not? I believed you, I never…” and she’s like, “I always stood by you, I never failed you,” and she’s like, “It’s not about you and me, though.” Yeah, like, “I gave my entire life to this order since I was literally an infant. I have been here following everything, doing everything right. I have been an exemplary Padawan, and you have been a great master, and neither of us could control this situation, and the people who could have controlled it wouldn’t have the trust or faith in me to hear me out.” I could see that being so devastating.
And I think that plays into her decision to walk away. So much of it is just the loss of trust and the hurt, the genuine hurt. Because also, it’s like Master Plo, the Jedi who found her, it was everyone, and they apologize, but they never stood up for her sooner.
Matthew:
I think you’re so right. I’m glad you kind of pushed back a bit, because I think saying that she lost trust in herself isn’t quite right. It’s more that, and granted, some of this comes from the Ahsoka novel, which is kind of questionable canonicity now but I think still is important, and also some from these episodes and other later stuff we see: it’s not that she questions herself, it’s that she realizes the validation she’s always gotten for herself is from this organization she can no longer trust. That’s one more thing she’s questioning. I think a lot of what we’ll see in her season seven arc, which we’ll get to, is her wanting to find other ways to validate herself and to figure herself out and say, “Okay, I can’t trust the Jedi about anything, and part of that’s about me.” I need to figure out how I judge myself, rather than just looking to Anakin’s approval, or Plo Koon’s approval, or Obi-Wan’s, or the council’s as a whole.
Erin:
Yeah, I think that definitely has a big part of it. Everything you find validation in is related to this thing that is now tainted, that you can no longer trust. So it’s understandable to have to walk away, and it’s heartbreaking. Just the last things they say to each other, Anakin and Ahsoka: he says, “I understand wanting to leave the Jedi Order more than you know,” and she just says the classic Star Wars line, “I know,” and then just leaves. I believe she knew about Padmé.
Matthew:
Yeah, I think she may not know the details. She may not know that they’re married, or that the kids are on the way. No, that all happens after she leaves, but I think she definitely knows the two of them are together. I don’t think she even thinks it’s a certain, you know, Obi-Wan thing. I think she thinks he has stepped over the line, that Obi-Wan… yeah, absolutely, and that’s what she means. I think you’re right that a large part of it is her recognition that as much as her master trusts her and has her back, he can’t stop it. But I do think there’s also some level of disappointment in him. I don’t think she would ever say this directly, because I think she would say it’s unfair to think of him this way, but I think it’s a part of it. He’s placed in a situation where on some level he has to choose between her and the organization. He could leave the Jedi with her, he could say, “No, this is not okay, if you kick her out, I’m going to too,” and he doesn’t. He protests the decision, but on some level he’s trying to get her to accept it and then trying to get her to come back. I don’t think she’s disappointed in him in the way she’s disappointed with the other Jedi, but I think there’s some level of him falling down a little further off the pedestal for her. He’s not the master way up high, he’s someone who is just as flawed and just as broken as she is, and everybody else in this. She still really admires him, but he’s just human too, and she needs to look to other people instead of always looking to him for guidance.
Erin:
Definitely, Anakin is certainly fallible, as she has learned throughout the years of being his Padawan.
Matthew:
What I know as someone who was watching the show and a huge Ahsoka fan from the beginning, do you remember how you felt watching these episodes for the first time?
Erin:
I was so scared she was gonna die. I mean, the entire fourth and fifth season, I just had this fear, because I didn’t know how they were going to tie it up. When they did tie it up this way, I remember, because I watched the episodes on the computer at the time, since I didn’t have Cartoon Network on the TV, but you could watch it on the website. I was watching in front of the computer, and I remember crying and thinking, “I understand they had to do it, but there must have been a less painful way.” It was so heartbreaking and so sad.
So cool, though, she did so many cool things. I loved the connection she made with Ventress. I was also pretty devastated that my girl Barriss just got thrown under the bus. Not really “thrown under the bus,” because her character arc is logical and she has a lot of good points, like you pointed out, her critiques are correct and valid. But it’s such a bummer, because those were always my favorite episodes before the later seasons came out. The ones I always wanted to go back and watch over and over were the Geonosian brain worm episodes, the one with her and Barriss on the ship, and then them getting stuck under the droid factory. I just loved their friendship so much. She has like a little friend, they’re such a cute duo, two little alien girls. When I saw her again, by the way, do you know… um, I do know she’s… can I just pull it out of the air… it’s failing me… Mirialan. Thank you. She’s a Mirialan female. I’ve actually considered cosplaying the species before. I just loved the duo of the two of them so much. When she popped back up at the Jedi funerals, maybe in the first episode, I was so excited. I was like, “She’s back! Oh my god, they’re still friends, I love this.” And when Anakin told Ahsoka, “Go be with your friend, go talk to Barriss,” she’s clearly upset, she was close with one of the Jedi who was killed. I was so excited to see them back together and get more of Barriss, and I was like, “Is this gonna be another fun adventure?” And then it was just her downfall, and I was like, damn, I guess that’s what happens when you don’t check on a character for two and a half seasons. Crazy stuff goes down.
Matthew:
Like you said, it’s sad, because we like that character a lot, and I hate to see that character end, although of course the character does come back in later video games and stuff. But like you said, it made total sense. I mentioned this idea before, but I want to go into a little more detail: there’s this idea that if you’re willing to bend, it’s actually a lot harder for you to break. It’s easy to be like, “Okay, here are the rules,” but sometimes the rules don’t really fit, and you’ve got to find a way to bend the rules a little bit to make it all work. Maybe you’re not playing by the straight and narrow, but you can also fit the unexpected into your scenarios. If you’re really brittle, really “everything has to be by the book,” when something isn’t by the book, it breaks, and terrible things can happen. I think we saw that a couple of times before with smaller characters.
Dogma, for me, is one where we definitely get that same kind of idea, he’s the one who during the Pong Krell episodes just can’t get behind going against orders, even though the orders are clearly wrong. I think that’s very much who Barriss is, and I think it makes total sense that this is the kind of reaction she would have, and probably a lot of Jedi have, because there are all these contradictions: the peacemakers who are war leaders, the protectors of life who are ordering clones to their deaths, because you say this group of clones has to charge and suffer terrible casualties so this other group can take the objective, or whatever it is. In some ways I respect Barriss more for being the person whose mind can’t just say, “You know what, this is against the ideals we were taught, but it’s expedient, so I have to do it.” Her brain is just like, “No, this is wrong, I’m not supposed to be doing this.” For her to make the turn she does, it’s wrong and it’s terrible, but it makes total sense, and I respect the way her brain gets her there.
Erin:
Yeah, absolutely. That’s a really good way to break it down and put it. I was actually talking about Barriss with my therapist earlier today, because I was so excited about the episodes when I got there. I was like, “Yo!” I think she’s such an empathetic and deeply emotional character. What Barriss originally was, in her first concept, she showed up in Attack of the Clones at the Geonosis arena with Luminara. She’s quite a bit older than Ahsoka, well, a few years, but she was always really great with the Jedi healing, and she would do that for townspeople, for clones, whoever needed it, and she didn’t do as much of the battling at the start of the war. I kind of see myself in that to an extent, because I’m also deeply emotional. I’d consider myself to be empathetic, I’m going into nursing, I want to heal people and help them be better.
And so I can’t imagine being emotionally in that situation and then being paired with a master like Luminara, who comes off as a very cold, distant mother figure.
Matthew:
In those episodes you mentioned, or maybe a different arc, there’s a scene where Barriss and Ahsoka make this great sacrifice to destroy the factory, and it looks like they probably died. Luminara, in that very Jedi way, “there is no emotion, there’s only peace,” is sad about it, but she’s not broken up, she’s not like, “Oh my god, I have to do anything I can to fix it.” She accepts that Barriss died and is willing to move on. Anakin’s like, “No, if there’s even the slightest chance, we have to try to save them.” And of course it turns out he’s right, and that’s a moment where she is absolutely better at following the Jedi Code.
Erin:
Definitely, and the Jedi Code is bullshit in that moment, being willing to accept the death of what’s supposed to be basically your kid. I can see Barriss being deeply surprised when they come for her, I don’t think she’d be at all surprised that Luminara has that attitude towards her. But what does that tell you? It’s one of those things where you can tell yourself, “No, it’s really good that my parents are disciplinarians, because they’re pushing me to be harder, and I’m better because of that,” and then you see someone else whose parents are much nicer to them, buy them ice cream a lot more, and you might say, “Well, they’re not as good at math as I am,” but maybe they’re actually kind of happier. I can totally see that with Barriss, and in parts she doesn’t want to accept it, doesn’t want to talk about it, and guess what: repression is bad.
In that episode where they’re trapped under the droid factory, I believe she and Ahsoka have a conversation where Ahsoka’s like, “Anakin’s gonna come for me, how can we signal them, this and that,” and Barriss is kind of like, “No, girl, we’re screwed, it’s over for us, that’s just the way it is, we made the sacrifice, we knew this could happen.” And Ahsoka’s like, “Yeah, but don’t give up hope, there’s still a chance, we’re still breathing currently, so let’s do something.” Barriss is a little slow to come around to the idea, because she very much mirrors Luminara and has been taught, to an extent, that she’s disposable, that people won’t really mourn her when she’s gone. That’s rough, and at such a young age, that’s really devastating.
I want to bring up another thing about Barriss’s character: I find her so deeply emotional, and putting others first is, I think, how she got to where she got, being that type of mindset and person. In the episode with the Geonosian brain worms, at the end, as Ahsoka’s trying to freeze all the worms out of people because the worms can’t operate in the cold, and Ahsoka’s in her little tube top, freezing cold, Barriss comes after her with the worm, and Ahsoka triggers something that blows a bunch of cold air in her face, which causes the worm to start crawling out of Barriss’s mouth. In a moment of lucidity, she literally begs Ahsoka to kill her: “I can’t stop, please just kill me.” We don’t see what happens next until they’re found by Kit Fisto at the medical center. Again, to be taught at such a young age that you’re so disposable, and that that’s the best solution, I don’t think it’s a “I want to die” kind of thing, but it’s like, this would be the easiest, my life doesn’t have value, but others have the most value. Then to see others constantly put in danger, and now you’re in a position where you’re supposed to be putting others in danger as well, it just kind of broke her.
Matthew:
Shifting off of Barriss for a second, I think the fact that it is Barriss who does all that is so essential for Ahsoka’s character, and again why she makes the decision she does. Not by Anakin, but by everyone else, and certainly by Barriss herself in some ways: Barriss is like the role model Ahsoka was supposed to be living up to. This is the perfect Padawan that Ahsoka’s kind of like, “Well, I don’t think I could be her, and I don’t really want to be, and Anakin certainly doesn’t want me to be, but part of me is always gonna feel a little like, okay, well, I know I’m not the prize pupil, and that’s not me.” Now to look at how badly she breaks this person who is a much closer embodiment of the Jedi ideals, who had a master who was much more in line with what the Jedi was supposed to be. How could you see that and not question the Jedi deeply, and not think maybe these people aren’t the moral paragons, the people I should be following, if this is what happened to the person who was?
Erin:
Yeah, I think that’s a great point. It matters who Barriss is to Ahsoka. When I was watching it through this time, I just kept thinking to myself, “Okay, Barriss, girl, I get where you’re coming from, I get it if you decide this is the way you want to do it.” But could it have been literally any other Padawan, not your girl? I mean, obviously Ahsoka’s one of the main characters, so that’s just how it is, and like we said, it fits into the story so beautifully. But from a friend perspective, I think what you’re saying about Ahsoka looking at that and being like, “Wow, we were really friends, and you went to the point of, I trust nobody, it doesn’t matter, I will literally attempt to get the person who has been closest to me tier-wise killed.” Because Barriss knew, or was hoping, that Ahsoka would be killed in the chase somehow, because then Ahsoka couldn’t tell the truth or keep fighting. And then she was hoping Ahsoka would be sentenced to execution, because that was on the table when she went to trial under the Senate.
Matthew:
Yeah, I agree. I’ve talked at other points on this podcast about how I love the ideology of the light side and the dark side, but sometimes I’m frustrated when even Star Wars itself, but also Star Wars fans, treat it a little too literally, like a switch just goes off. I think there are definitely people who are walking the path of the dark side and don’t realize it, and to me Barriss is a hundred percent that, because you’d think if she’s thinking things through against her morals and her values, she would stop and think, “Should I do this to Ahsoka?” But the fact that she’s willing to sacrifice Ahsoka as part of this, not to mention the other Jedi she kills, it’s that “any sacrifice is worthwhile if it fulfills the goal I’ve convinced myself is right.” That’s part of why I find Palpatine such a boring villain. A villain who thinks they’re evil and thinks they’re the villain and just wants to laugh maniacally, yes, there are those people every now and then, but the vast majority of people, and this is everyone from the ex who broke your heart to Hitler, are people who probably think they’re the hero of the story. Either because they’re massively misinformed, or incredibly hateful and letting that hate blind them to the evil they’re doing, or narcissistic, or whatever it is.
Narcissistic as an adjective, not narcissistic personality disorder, which is a real thing, but yeah, more likely to hurt somebody than most people. That, to me, is a much more interesting villain, and I think that’s exactly where Barriss is here. You can see why that would shake Ahsoka so thoroughly. It’s interesting, like you were just saying, because I think I get why they don’t let us know it’s Barriss for so long, they want to make it a big sort of gotcha surprise moment, so it’s probably better they didn’t do anything to suggest it. But part of me wishes there’d been a little more of Barriss thinking to herself, “Ahsoka might agree with me, can I maybe bring Ahsoka along in this?” Remember, at the funeral, Barriss says one or two things that feel like, not that she’s in any way saying the bombing was justified, or “Look, I did it,” but it feels like she’s a little bit testing the waters with Ahsoka to see just how dedicated Ahsoka is to the Jedi. When she hears Ahsoka say, “No, this is terrible, they kill Jedi, that’s not okay,” she kind of backs off.
Erin:
Yeah, she’s like, “Never mind.” Because Barriss has reached the point in her thought process, idealism, whatever you want to call it, where lives don’t matter, casualties don’t matter. She literally spoke about being “close” with one of the Jedi who was killed. That’s similar to how she treats Ahsoka. There’s multiple ways a villain can be: you can decide, “I’m gonna be a villain, people will have to get hurt, yes, but let me do as few as possible to make a statement, or make sure that nobody I care about is gonna be there.” But to kill and attempt to kill and torment several of the people who are supposed to be closest to you, that’s a completely different type of villain, one who in their own mind is not a villain. They think they’re the hero, everything is justified, everything makes sense, and it has to be those important characters in your life so that it means more.
Matthew:
I think that’s exactly it. That’s what the dark side is to me: it’s literal darkness, in that it clouds you and makes you think you’re motivated by anger, by hate, by lust, by jealousy, by fear, whatever it is. Look at our own world: if you’re afraid of a group of people or a person, it’s a lot easier to dehumanize them, a lot easier to think terrible things about them, a lot easier to believe whatever myths and lies are being told to you about them. That’s exactly how Palpatine takes advantage of it, and all the rest. Which brings me to a question: I’ve seen some people argue that Palpatine must have been behind this, that he must have groomed her towards the dark side. I don’t think so, and I think it would actually have made the story worse if that were directly the case. What’s your take on this?
Erin:
I do not think Palpatine had influence over Barriss directly. I don’t think it was any sort of, “Oh, maybe he’ll be an assassin for me,” necessarily. But I do believe there were definitely times throughout these episodes, watching them again today, where I was like, “Oh, he’s loving this,” or, “He’s going in a little extra on a certain thing to make something a little more…” He did not have to do the whole expulsion thing, that is completely on him. If he hadn’t brought it up so aggressively… I mean, Tarkin was also campaigning for it, but I think Palpatine pulled strings after the fact to make it as messy as possible and direct it towards Anakin. I don’t think he had any part in the nanobots, or the original terrorist attack, or even contact with Barriss, or any sort of directing.
Matthew:
I think a lot of times with a master manipulator like Palpatine, people want to think he’s literally in control of every single thing that happens, and I don’t think that’s accurate. I think what’s much more likely, in our own world and in the Star Wars world, is that he’s kind of planting seeds. He probably expected that in the situation he’s putting the Jedi in, some Jedi was going to break, maybe… yeah, absolutely, and he’s gonna be there and ready to capitalize. He probably had a suspicion that Barriss might be one of them and thought, “Well, that would be a bonus, because then maybe I could do something with that.” When he sees the way it plays out, he immediately realizes, “If I push this along and use it as a way to break the connection between Ahsoka and Anakin, that puts him two or three more steps towards me, so that’s great.”
Erin:
Yeah, I got it. It’s opportunistic. He didn’t create this opportunity, he created the situation in which something like this happening is a lot more likely, and then when it did, he quickly figured out how he could capitalize on it. Here’s how he could force a confrontation between Ahsoka and the Jedi that Anakin will feel caught in the middle of, and thus feel trapped by, and, “Oh no, he’ll come to me.”
I think that’s absolutely true. But I totally agree that saying Palpatine was behind it does a lot of diminishing to the character of Barriss, and her whole message, really.
Matthew:
Yeah, exactly. I believe Pong Krell thinks there’s a Sith Lord and wants to go find him. I don’t think Barriss thinks that at this point. All right, well, that’s pretty much all I had about these episodes. Any other big topics you want to get into, or quotes you want to discuss?
Erin:
Let’s talk about Ventress and Ahsoka for a little bit, the moments of connection they had, because I also love that whole thing. I love Ventress, I loved seeing her back as a bounty hunter, and I loved the way Barriss played that situation. If Ahsoka had been helped by Bossk, or Boba Fett, or just say somebody else, Barriss could not have believably physically embodied that person to then attack Ahsoka in secret later. I loved that when Barriss attacked Ventress, knocked her out, took her mask, took her sabers, and then attacked Ahsoka with them, it was believable that it could have been Ventress, and the fighting style kept up. I loved the way the three of them kind of danced around that whole situation. Those are three of my favorite female characters in the Clone Wars show.
Matthew:
I’m so glad you brought that up, because I agree, I love that whole interaction. Part of it’s because I really like situations where people who are kind of mirror images of each other are forced to each take a few steps towards the middle and meet each other there. In many ways, Ventress is the other-side version of Ahsoka. Ahsoka is introduced as the Padawan to Anakin, Ventress is more experienced and mature, but is in many ways the equivalent of a Padawan to Count Dooku, often being used as a second. They’ve had a lot of clashes, and both of them have been kicked out of their respective institutions. When they meet, it’s before the Jedi offer Ahsoka the chance to come back, so she feels like she’s been betrayed by the Jedi. Ventress at this point still feels that Dooku kicked her out of the Sith, and she’s had these attempts to kill him, and they’ve all failed. Both of them have had to start questioning the Sith ideology or the Jedi ideology, wondering if things are as extreme as their side has been telling them to believe. In many ways this is a very classic buddy-cop idea: one person who’s very much the good guy and everything straight by the book, and someone else who’s either the loose-cannon cop or even the criminal who has to team up with the cop.
It’s a classic trope, but a very good one, and I thought it was so fun that they were together. I’ll be honest, I kept hoping this would be a spin-off with those two, or that we’d get more episodes of them together, and we do get a little bit of it, but I’ll maintain that I think it’s one of the great lost opportunities, having Ahsoka and Ventress work together more during this time when Ahsoka was kind of lost, finding herself. It’s just great TV, they’re hilarious together, they bounce off each other well, they both teach each other things as they try to see beyond their own perspective. It’s just great.
Erin:
They’re both just quippy sass masters. Ventress flirts with literally anyone who breathes, and Ahsoka can certainly keep up with her speed of jabs and whatnot. I loved how, when they were surrounded by the clones, Ahsoka’s like, “I’m not gonna hurt you, we are not gonna hurt you,” and then looks at Ventress, and Ventress is like, “excuse me?” Ventress whips out her lightsabers, and Ahsoka’s like, “I don’t want to fight,” and Ventress is like, “I do.” Then they just beat the crap out of some people, and Ventress chooses to disarm by cutting the guns rather than actually kill or maim anyone. Didn’t even maim anybody. Then they finish the fight, and she made some quip to Ahsoka, but didn’t kill anybody. “Look at me on the straight and narrow, I’m growing.”
Matthew:
Yeah, they’re just so fun. I think the voice actresses for both are great, and I hope that as we explore more different parts of this timeline, we’ll see a little more of those two interacting. That would be the dream, honestly. Dream team.
Before we hit any last things, I also want to quickly say, many of you have heard of Paul Hoppe, my good friend and often co-host or guest on this podcast and other podcasts. He has just published a book called Friday Night Is My Monday Morning. He says that because he plays poker for a living, so Friday night is the start of his work week. It’s a collection of essays as well as poker analysis. So that’s one part of the book, really interesting, learning more about poker itself, but a lot of it’s also about life lessons from poker, and he talks about how to start new projects, how to deal with defeat, and how to learn from your results without letting variance convince you of bad things, and stuff like that. It’s a great little book, I really recommend it. This is volume one, and you can buy it through this podcast, you’ll get like a 40% discount, and the podcast will get some of that support too. That’s what helps keep us in microphones and hair dye and all the good things required to spruce ourselves up for you all. You get to save money, you get to throw some money our way, and you get a great book. All that information is in the show notes. Please find that link, click on it, and make the purchase, because I think you’ll really enjoy it.
So, with that, Erin, any other last, smaller topics?
Erin:
I don’t think so. I just feel for all the clones that got caught in the middle.
Matthew:
Yeah, very much so. Very much so. Yeah, no, it’s a sad story. I think that’s again the dark side part of it, Barriss is horrified by what’s happening to the clones and how they’re being treated, but she becomes the worst because she’s willing to use them as cannon fodder and see them die as part of all this.
Erin:
Literally use them to set someone up. Here’s actually a question, though.
Matthew:
Do you think Barriss had any thought that, you know, you put someone in a really bad situation so that they break bad the way you did? Do you think Barriss might have thought, if I frame Ahsoka for this, then she’ll hate the Jedi as much as I do and join up with me?
Erin:
I wonder if there could have been some thought to it initially. But I think she has to understand, once Ahsoka’s captured, if she goes to trial and goes to jail, it’s over. She’s stuck. Even if she were to escape, I doubt that would be a path to the dark side. So I don’t really think that was a thought process. I think at this point, Barriss is a little bit too tunnel vision, one-minded, and almost selfish in a way, because she selfishly needs everyone else to feel and understand the pain and horror and confusion she’s been feeling, rather than just explain it.
Matthew:
And she’s not really willing to make the noble sacrifice. She’s not a suicide bomber. She’s not willing to stand up and have her day in court and say, “Yes, you’re going to execute me, that’s fine, but I want everyone to know this is what I did.” She actually tries to frame Ahsoka, and I think that’s again the hypocrisy there, and that’s the point. You think she’s doing this brave and noble thing, and she’s not. Absolutely not. Oh, Barriss.
Erin:
My queen. I need to go watch her episodes of Tales of the Empire now.
Matthew:
Yeah, they’re good. They’re good. All right. Well, Erin, thank you so much for this. Any last quotes you have to take us out?
Erin:
Yeah, just my finishing quote, which is… actually, no, sorry, there’s one more thing I have to mention. Just Anakin’s aura when he goes to question Barriss, walking in the room and immediately Force-grabbing her lightsaber, so she doesn’t have a weapon, in case she has one, to force her to use the other sabers if she has them. It was just the aura, also very dark side, not very Jedi at all, but so cool. And my favorite is literally this quote: he says, “Ahsoka trusted you,” and Barriss says, “I’ve learned that trust is overrated. The only thing the Jedi Council believes in is violence.” And then Anakin ignites a second lightsaber to show her how much the Jedi Order does not believe in violence.
Matthew:
Yep. “You’re wrong about thinking we’re so violent, and I’m gonna throw you around and torture you to prove that.”
Erin:
“I’m going to smash you into a tree so hard.”
Matthew:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, Erin, thank you so much. I’ll let you close us out with a quote after I do my closings. But for everyone listening, let us know what you think, we’d love to hear your thoughts. As I mentioned before, we are going every other week, but that’s only gonna be for like one more episode, and then we’ll be back to full episodes for The Ninth Jedi. We’ll probably give you some background episode leading into that. But until then, please check out all the other episodes on the website. If you go to TheEthicalPanda.com, you’ll find this podcast as well as my other podcast, Superhero Ethics, in the show notes.
As I said, you’ll find all the information about Paul’s book. You’ll find all of Erin’s awesome cosplay and all the great stuff that she’s doing. Alex, who is unfortunately busy with work right now and can’t join us, he’s a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, photojournalist, does fantastic work. Check out all of his stuff, all that’s on the show notes.
You can just Google our names. But most importantly, thank you all so much for listening, thank you for tuning in. And as someone who likes the Jedi, believes in fairness and justice, and that even athletic events should be played fairly: stay classy, Belgium. The only thing the Jedi also believes in.
Erin:
What did Belgium do? I’m sure it’s FIFA related, but damn, I haven’t seen that yet.
Matthew:
So after Trump was horribly corrupt to get an American team unsuspended, Belgium kicked the team’s ass.
Erin:
Oh, so it’s like slay, Belgium. Yeah, yeah.
