Matthew
Hello and welcome to this episode of Star Wars Generations podcast, friends. It’s been a couple of days since Maul: Shadow Lord finished, so now we can move on to other things. And so today we’re gonna — nah, forget it, let’s keep talking about Maul. There was so much more to say. Alex has been given a chance to comment on the last two episodes, but more importantly we also just want to, now that we’ve seen the whole thing, look back at the whole show, talk about what worked, talk about what we loved, what we maybe could have seen done differently, what this all teaches us about the Star Wars universe, and what we think is going to happen going forward — both with Maul, but also with Star Wars in general with everything we’ve learned. So before that, I want to give Alex a chance to brag about a cool thing he did, by way of noting a real injustice that many of you suffered that he managed to escape. So Alex, give us your humble brag about Celebration.
Alex
I did secure my tickets to Star Wars Celebration. I did wait in an online line for over two hours in order to do so, with multiple browsers open. But it started like Lucasfilm and ReedPop just heavily dropped the ball. I mean, they allowed a ticket limit of 20 per person, which in theory would make sense if that was the limit for individual day tickets. So if you were going with five people, the four-day ticket limit was sold out. You know, you can buy all the tickets you need — because I ended up having to buy eight tickets for me and my friend, one for each of us for all four days. But the 20-ticket limit for the four-day pass and four-ticket limit for Jedi Master VIP sold out in 30 minutes, and the four-day ticket sold out in under an hour. After five hours everything was sold out, and the majority of fans were left with no tickets and scalpers already have them listed for four or five times the price. So I’m very excited that I got in and got my tickets. I had to pay extra on top of what the four-day ticket would have cost because I had to get them individually. But I feel horrible for all the fans who can’t go or have to pay inflated prices, because for whatever reason they decided to have the most horrible ticketing system I’ve ever seen in my life. It’s like they overcorrected — in Japan they had a really low limit, you could only buy like two or three tickets per person, and now they just went to 20 tickets, and I’m like, okay guys, what are we doing? It’s the 50th anniversary of Star Wars. Tons of fans want to go — can we get this right, please? We need a happy medium.
Matthew
Right. I’m definitely surprised that you had to buy the tickets individually, because you’d think a lot of people are going to be traveling for this. You’d think most people would want to buy the four-day ticket package.
Alex
And they had those, but they sold out in under an hour. Because they had a 20-ticket limit — because who needs 20 four-day passes? Yeah, people who want to sell them. You go online and it’s absolutely absurd how expensive they’re selling for. I paid $50 or so from the website, and during the day on Wednesday when they went on sale — also, they went on sale Wednesday in the middle of the workday. Noon Pacific time, two o’clock Central, three Eastern. Are we kidding? Does no one see how many fans have jobs? But I went on my lunch to see, and on the other hand I was spending $90 per ticket for each individual day pass, which is like $360 total. And you go on Vivid Seats and they were selling for I think $350 a day.
Matthew
I’m hoping Disney’s going to crack down on that scalping because that stuff is ridiculous, and they should really be trying to cut that out. I do appreciate that, and Alex I’m sure you laid out a huge amount of money. So please let Erin and I know where we can pay you back for the tickets you bought for us. You did have that 20-ticket limit after all.
Alex
Yeah, yeah, I got those written in the back pocket here. Oh wait, by that logic I just got kicked out.
Matthew
I mean, I would have bought tickets for us, you know, but fair enough. Fair enough.
Erin
Yeah, I have no money so I can’t buy tickets for us.
Alex
That’s fair. Yeah, and they just announced the first guests too. Which are: Hayden Christensen, Anthony Daniels, Ian McDiarmid, Michelle Ang, and Dee Bradley Baker. Just for reference, that would be Anakin, C-3PO, the Emperor, the voice actress for Omega, and the voice actor for all the clones.
Matthew
Yeah, those are some amazing guests. Those are people who are really important to Star Wars that I would really love to see.
Alex
Listen to me. Hayden Christensen was listed first out of all of them because he’s the most exciting.
Matthew
Yeah, Hayden Christensen — people know he’s done some other great work in other stuff, so I would love to see him for that. Anyway, all right, enough of that. Speaking of Anakin Skywalker — Anakin Skywalker is like a Pokémon. He evolves and evolves and we saw one of his evolutions in the last episodes of Maul. Alex, what did you think?
Alex
You know, I actually didn’t really see it coming. I didn’t think that Vader was going to appear in person, but now that I saw it I was really happy that they went this route for a couple of reasons. First of all, they didn’t make Vader speak, which I know we’re going to get into more in depth, but I just thought that was a brilliant choice — I’ll say that off the bat. I will also say that seeing Vader in his prime fighting is really exciting. I never in a million years thought I would get to see Darth Vader duel Maul in any capacity, whether in animation or live action, and it was so epic. Maul was hampered the whole time obviously with his busted leg, but it was still so cool to watch. The way that Maul and Daki fought together, and then Maul kind of sacrificed him in order to push Devin towards the dark side — it was just really, I thought, masterfully done. Frankly, I feel like Maul just kind of realized at some point in that fight, like, I am outclassed here. And it also harkened back, I thought, to the last time we saw Maul canonically, at the end of The Clone Wars, where Ahsoka shows up and goes, you know, you’re lucky Anakin didn’t show up. And I was like, yeah, clearly Maul would have gotten destroyed if Anakin had shown up.
Matthew
Well, I think you’re right, but one thing is interesting — and Pete Wright pointed this out on one of our last episodes — Vader’s fighting style is so different from Anakin’s. Anakin is like parkour, you know? He is just bouncing all over the place, using all these technical flourishes and stuff like that. Vader is just — the point I would make is like in D&D, you switch from a dexterity-based weapon to a strength-based weapon. He is just full-on pounding ahead. I think you’re right that both versions are better than Maul to some extent, but it’s such a different fighting style, and I thought that was a great way of showing how this is Vader. It leaves me with a question though, Alex — I want to hear your thoughts, and then we’ll broaden it out, because it’s not just going over stuff we talked about before. We know that by the time of A New Hope — 14, maybe 17 years later, I’m bad with math — we know that Vader has, as much as he can, pushed down the memories of Anakin. He’s not thinking like Anakin. This is only like two years into him being Vader, so there’s still got to be some of that coming back, even as he’s fighting it quite a lot. We know from a lot of his novels. Do you think that Vader sees Maul, or even when someone tells him he’s got to go to Janix to fight Maul — is some part of him connecting to being an eight-year-old boy and the first time he ever sees a red lightsaber, this crazy guy with horns and a painted face coming at him, and then later killing his first mentor? Anakin has this pretty traumatic history with Maul, and I’m just wondering — is that a part of what’s happening in Vader’s head during this fight?
Alex
I think yes. I think at the very least he remembers that Maul was the one who killed Qui-Gon, and Qui-Gon was very much like a father figure, even if he was short-lived in Anakin’s life. Maul is also the one who tortured Obi-Wan for years. So I’m sure that’s in Anakin’s head. And I actually saw online that there’s canon in the Vader comics that Anakin was so fascinated by Maul’s fighting style that he had Obi-Wan create a holographic module for Anakin to practice his lightsaber skills as a padawan — so he trained against Maul basically. I think it was very much in his head, like, you know, take some revenge on this scourge. And he probably sees Maul as this usurper, this imposter — the imperfect apprentice to his master. Maul has literally been a thorn in the side of every single master Anakin has ever served.
Matthew
Yeah, no, it’s true. So with all that in mind, we have these great episodes. Let’s talk about the show as a whole. One thing I’ve kept referencing but never really getting into is the beauty of those final lightsaber fights. I use that to talk about the animation style in general, because obviously animation keeps getting better and better — part of that’s the technology, part of that’s the budget. Even if you just look from season one to season four of The Clone Wars, the animation gets so much better. But the level of detail they had here — I was noticing especially in those last episodes — the idea of a lightsaber fight in the mist, where you kept having the glow of the lightsaber reflected on the mist, and the way Vader’s final moment from episode seven has the whole screen kind of go red as this lightsaber turns on. We saw scenes of the red and the blue flashing in the mist. What do you all think of the animation, especially those fight scenes, overall?
Erin
I loved it. I mean, I’m a sucker for the Clone Wars style. A big part of my beef with Rebels and why I haven’t rewatched it as much as I have Clone Wars is the change in animation style. I don’t know if that was just a neurodivergence thing, but I had a really hard time with it. I just really did not like that animation style, especially when Ahsoka showed up. I was like, what have they done to my girl? I was not happy with it as a teenager. So I was so happy when Bad Batch came out with the same Clone Wars animation style, and now this show is kind of the same style but, like you’re saying, getting better and better. I love that they’ve stuck with the style to kind of keep some sort of continuity or vibe the same — as well as obviously nostalgia. But yeah, it’s just so beautiful and crisp nowadays. It’s insane.
Alex
Glad you do love it. And to me — fair point — Rebels was very unique in that it was specifically designed after Ralph McQuarrie’s original concept drawings. But I do get it, and I also agree that the animation has continued to get amazing. Going back and watching Maul fight in the early Clone Wars is still really epic, but this? Oh my god. And we won’t even just talk about the Vader and Maul portion of it — moving through the old temple, or even fighting the inquisitors, seeing Devin fight. Even that, knowing that Maul was eventually going to betray Daki — seeing them fight together was pretty cool. It’s very rare to see a Jedi and a Sith fighting side by side, even temporarily.
Erin
And we got that throughout the whole series with Maul and Devin — in the previous episodes before that finale.
Matthew
And I liked the way they evolved Maul’s fighting style. Because I went back and watched the whole show again a couple of nights ago, because Mary — my spouse — hadn’t seen it yet and she likes to binge the whole thing. Just seeing the difference in when he’s literally fighting for his life versus when he’s fighting Devin, where it’s very clear he’s never trying to land a killing blow because he wants to train her. He wants to get her to tap into her dark side feelings. So he’s clearly just trying to make her angry — he’s being almost condescending in how he’s fighting against her. The way they show that in different ways is great. I also — and I want to ask you guys about this because you might know more about his race and stuff — the character design of Daki was so well done. I was wondering: have we seen Daki’s species before? We’ve seen other anthropomorphic lizards, like the Trandoshans. What is Daki’s species, and do we know? The green and yellow speckling on his head was just so gorgeous.
Erin
The animation for him was beautiful. I don’t think we’ve really seen the species that much before. Let me see.
Alex
The only thing that comes to mind — and I don’t know if it’s the exact same species — but do you remember very briefly during Attack of the Clones that Jedi who pulls up on Dooku and then Jango Fett just shoots him immediately and he falls to his death?
Erin
Oh, I know who you’re talking about. Coleman something.
Alex
Yeah, yeah, Coleman — what is it?
Matthew
Coleman.
Erin
Coleman Trebor! Coleman Trebor, yeah.
Alex
Yeah, that’s it. Let’s see the species.
Erin
It’s a different species. He’s Vurk, whereas I just looked up — Master Daki is Mosaic. And they are only credited as that species being mentioned in Maul: Shadow Lord.
Alex
I guess there’s a whole Reddit thread that says TIL Master Daki is not the same species as Coleman Trebor.
Matthew
Look, now those are two dinosaurs — okay, they both look like anthropomorphic dinosaurs but they’re not the same.
Alex
That is why I thought they were possibly connected, but.
Matthew
Okay. So now that we’ve gotten to the end — it’s a beautiful show, we love Vader — what do you think of the show overall?
Erin
I loved it. I really enjoyed it. I felt like the story progressed naturally. I think a big concern for a lot of people going into this was like, okay, how can Maul kill her master and Devin still be willing to train with him? How are they gonna get rid of the master? It can’t really be Maul, can it? And this was a perfect way of doing it, because it aligns their rage — she hates the Sith so much, and therefore Anakin as well. And I’m sure now that she’s realized Vader is Anakin, she’s going to have a lot more feelings about it in season two. She obviously hates Vader. I mean, in the last episode she literally says, “I will kill him.” I loved the way they did that scene, because her eyes changed so quickly, and they did just a tiny bit of layering over her vocals when she said it. It’s almost like in The Clone Wars, the way Mother Talzin’s voice has a deeper echo to it. When she said that, there was something edited in there that felt like the dark side — it really exacerbated the idea of the rage. I thought that was really cool. Unless the actress can do that with her voice naturally, in which case that’s insane. But sorry, really roundabout way to get to my point — I think it was perfect how they got rid of Master Daki.
Alex
Yeah, it was the best way to do it. It was so subtle — just a gentle little force push to push him forward. It was kind of like a “sorry bro, I’m leaving you.” I think if Maul wasn’t injured he would have kept fighting, because Daki had some pride and wanted to kill Vader. But you take your opportunity. Maul pushed Daki forward knowing what would happen, and that was really sad. Vader is just so cold, man. It’s scary to think that just a few years ago he was Anakin walking above a Jedi, and now he’s just murdering Daki in cold blood. And Devin’s rage immediately unbalancing her was very poignant. At the very end — her gripping and having that little creepy smile — I was like, okay, I’m ready. She looks ready to murder a planet. Her rage is deep. She’s giving me Darth Talon vibes.
Erin
And I feel like it’s nice, because if this character had not had many doubts beforehand and then her master died, it wouldn’t be as believable. Whereas she’s been having doubts this whole time. She’s been really angry at the Empire this whole time, really angry at their position, and having a lot of feelings that have been kind of dismissed by Daki — because he doesn’t know the best way to approach them. “You’re a Jedi, you ignore them.” So I think it’s nice that it’s clear Maul didn’t just pick her because she was a Jedi. There was truly something brewing that he could feel.
Matthew
Yeah, she definitely — and in some ways I felt like this is maybe a bit of a stretch, but — the Duel of the Fates in Phantom Menace is really about whether Qui-Gon or Sidious is going to wind up raising Anakin, and obviously it’s Obi-Wan, but we know Sidious was grooming him the whole time. I felt there was a similar thing happening here in that Vader looked like he was kind of pulling his punches a bit when he was fighting Devin — definitely trying to push her aside but not kill her. We know from the Jedi: Fallen Order games and stuff like that that the Inquisitorius and Vader especially love to find padawans who have a lot of these feelings and bring them over. So to me, a lot of that fight was about which one of you is going to get to be Devin’s master — Vader or Maul? There were moments where I thought she was going to wind up with Vader, in part because — and I think we should be held to this — I think she kind of has to be Talon if she’s with Maul, but not Darth Talon, just because he’s moved away from the whole Darth system. Part of me was wondering, is Vader going to make her Darth Talon? But yeah, I just love that aspect of the fight and love that it’s… it would be one thing if she was still 100 percent behind everything her master taught her, because then you’d think, well, now that your master’s dead, aren’t you going to believe in his way even more? But she was questioning him all the time — questioning the Jedi code. And I think it’s very possible for her to look at this and think: I love my master, but he was a fool. His devotion to the Jedi code not only got the Jedi killed, it got him killed. And that’s even more confirmation for her that this isn’t the code she should be following.
Alex
It’s kind of what happened with Asajj Ventress too — she saw her master die and the rage took over. She was kind of convinced by Dooku that the Jedi were weak and she should embrace a different path. It’s a classic Sith playbook, turning a young mind. And remember, she’s so young — her mind is so malleable at this age. It’s not hard to plant emotions. I’m really upset that I have to wait an entire year or longer to see what the future holds for this, because…
Erin
Oh my god, she was so good.
Alex
Evil Devin is going to be pretty fun, I feel like. And we haven’t really gotten a series where you get to dive into the long-term training of a new Sith apprentice.
Matthew
Well, I mean, I think we were getting one, but then some fans called it woke. But yeah.
Alex
No, I know — we would have gotten… I mean, The Acolyte would have been…
Matthew
I think picking up the pieces — I really hope they get help, because she clearly had some ideas of where that could go.
Alex
Every time Matthew brings up The Acolyte I get sad, because I really wanted a season two.
Matthew
One thing I kind of think we’re going to get — there’s one other character who we learned from another animated show not that long ago who’s running around at this same time who might have something to say to both Maul and Devin. Asajj Ventress. That’s what I was going to say. I’m really curious if she’s going to show up somewhere in this period in Maul season two, because it would feel weird to introduce her and then not do anything with her, and Maul is the show in that same time period.
Erin
Yeah, and like, Worlds — you know — because she was running with the underworld and bounty hunters primarily, I think.
Matthew
Yeah, very much so. And this is a point I made on the last episode: I feel like she can’t stay as Maul’s apprentice for long, because the way he tries to recruit Ahsoka and the way he tries to recruit Ezra, he kind of references like, I want an apprentice — and he’s not talking like someone who had an apprentice for ten years. It seems to me like he’s coming from a place of, you would be my first — well, not literally first, but it feels to me like if Devin had been his apprentice for ten years, it wouldn’t line up with where he was in Rebels. So I’m going to say — I could be wrong there — but that’s kind of how I was seeing it.
Alex
It also wouldn’t surprise me if Devin betrays him. Doesn’t he say something like “I was betrayed” when he’s stuck on that Sith world? What if him and Devin went there together and then Devin betrays him at some point? You would need a time skip to get past the Crimson Dawn Solo appearance, though. And I am happy that they brought in Dryden Voss to connect Solo to this.
Erin
Yeah, it’s nice that they’re not ignoring the cameo in Solo and they’re exploring that avenue more. I don’t think it’s out of the question that he could have Talon as an apprentice while puppeting Voss or taking over Voss — whichever it was. I think he could definitely have Talon at that point even though she’s not seen in Solo. With Maul, it’s hard to know how he would react trying to get an apprentice after having one for a short period of time versus after possibly having an apprentice for a long time. And at the end of the day, his mental state is so unstable — we literally had an episode of him struggling with his sanity in the show. I could very much see it as the second something goes wrong, he just falls back towards that madness of like, nothing’s ever gone right and I need this — betrayal, betrayal. That being said, I’m not as familiar with Rebels, so I could be wrong, but I don’t think his behavior in Rebels rules out the possibility of Talon being his apprentice for more than a year.
Alex
That’s fair. Do we think there’ll be a time jump?
Erin
I was just thinking about this, because I feel like they kind of have to. Why? Not that they have to — I don’t want there to be one — but I think I want to see her train from the get-go.
Erin
Do we think we’re getting more than two seasons? Maybe. Because if they’re going to keep going with this show, I don’t think they would do a time jump, or at least they wouldn’t necessarily need one, because I think it would require a lot of important exposition explaining how they get set up with Crimson Dawn. I don’t want them to do a time jump because I need to know about the tattoos. I need to know if they’re fueled by hate or if she went to an artist.
Alex
Like, do the tattoos form naturally?
Erin
Yeah, because the thing is, the Zabraks on Dathomir — their tattoos are natural, I believe.
Matthew
Oh, you’re right. Like the Night Brothers — those are natural tattoos. They have them from a very young age, as far as I know. And I believe what we saw in Ahsoka, the Night Sisters’ tattoos are from dark magic. There are a lot of connections happening right now with Night Sister stuff. We have Merrin, who’s hanging around, who we know shows up with the Night Sisters in Ahsoka. Maul’s legs that we saw get so damaged were made by Mother Talzin. So I’m kind of wondering — is he going to go back to the Night Sisters to get them healed? The Night Sisters have been wiped out at this point, but we know they exist as ghosts or spirits. So yeah, I think there are a lot of possibilities for overlap in that regard.
Erin
Yeah. Okay, I’m so sorry — intrusive thought. You said Maul’s legs and I just had this image of the woman from Andor with the antique shop. Oh, Cleo! What if Cleo just had, like, a set of Maul’s legs there? Like his old spider legs or something.
Matthew
I mean, you know I use a prosthetic leg — there’s nothing wrong with someone’s prosthetics.
Erin
I just think it would be hilarious. Sorry, carry on.
Matthew
Most people would have no idea. They’d be like, what in the world? But it could be a thing. Could be a thing. You’ve broken Alex, I think. He is just staring at the camera.
Erin
No thoughts, head empty. Hey, that’s okay. That was a lot. Alex, what did you think about how Spybot’s story wrapped up? It was kind of rough.
Alex
I just feel like it was so unceremonious. I get it — not all stories can end well. But it was strange in that he was a main character throughout the whole season, and then he just kind of dies at the end and didn’t overall have a strong impact on the story — whether he was there or not, the Imperial forces probably would have gotten called in and all the events that happened probably would have happened. But he was still a fun character, and at the end of the day his sacrifice meant something. I’m more intrigued honestly about how his death is going to affect his son. Like, will Riley have a role in season two? Will he be like a force trying to pull Devin back towards the light?
Erin
I have a great theory about that — but you go ahead and finish up.
Alex
No, go ahead. I did mention this when Matthew and I talked about it, but I would love to see — because in that last scene we did kind of see Devin crying but punching the wall inside the ship, and Riley was just there and she kind of looked over, and there was almost like a flash of compassion, but not the way she would have normally reacted to him. So I think he very much will exist in the next season as a foil to her goodness and her compassion. My theory was: what if Maul uses that as some sort of test? Like, prove that you’re loyal to me — kill him. And I feel like that would be crazy.
Alex
Yeah, Erin said murder of another child on screen.
Matthew
Yeah, I mean, there are so many ways that story can go. And I kind of agree with you, Alex — I thought it was all very abrupt. I didn’t love the “I’m going to sacrifice myself for him” moment. I thought: all of this is happening because of the Empire, and I left my wife because she’s part of the Empire, so — two boots now — please take my son back to his mother in the Empire? It felt a little strange. Like, you don’t have a cousin somewhere, dude? But yeah, I don’t think Maul would make it a straight-up “kill him just to show you’re loyal to me,” because part of why Maul’s approach has worked so far in getting her this far into the dark side is that everything he has said has been reasonable. Her path to the dark side feels a lot like Ezra’s when Ezra kind of flirted with it a bit in the middle of Rebels, or like Dooku in the books — you’re fighting something very evil and the light side doesn’t give you enough power to fight it. This is all about fighting the Sith, this is all about fighting Vader, and Maul’s kind of letting her believe she can still be a hero and just use the dark side. So I don’t think it would be a straight-up “kill him.” I think it would be more like, he’s weak and he’s holding you back. He might engineer a situation where she has to put herself in danger to rescue him, and he’s like, you know what.
Erin
I mean, also there’s just the fact that if we let him go, he’s going to his mother in the Empire and they’re going to come for us. So we can’t necessarily just let him leave.
Alex
And why would he even want to go to the Empire when they killed his dad? He’s a radicalized little rebel now.
Matthew
And I hope with Two Boots we’re going to get an interesting story. Two Boots is the guy who the leopards ate his face — he didn’t think the leopards were going to eat his face, but now they have and he’s not cool with the leopards anymore. I was wanting to reference something. You haven’t heard of the leopards eating people’s faces meme? Both of you are not in the same circles I am. There’s a popular meme about Trump voters who are now saying, “Oh my gosh, I can’t believe Trump is coming after my people, what happened?” And if you vote for a party called Leopards Eating People’s Faces and then you’re surprised that the leopards are eating your face…
Erin
I never thought the leopards would eat my face. And Two Boots isn’t quite that bad — Two Boots wasn’t like “I want the leopards to eat other people’s faces.” He was like, they’re leopards, they’re fine, they’re cute.
Matthew
They’re cuddly. But I think he’s also very much meant to represent those folks who are like, as long as you don’t do anything bad, you don’t worry about ICE or the cops or whatever it is. And yeah, so I feel like his evolution has been really interesting, and I hope that he’s like, “Riley, your dad wasn’t in his right mind. He kind of got himself killed. You don’t really want to go to your mom, do you?”
Erin
Yeah. It’ll be interesting to see what kind of evolution a droid is capable of. Because we know there is some sentience to them obviously, but at the end of the day it’s like — C-3PO is a protocol droid.
Matthew
Spybot! Alex, are you joining the rest of us in mourning Spybot?
Alex
In mourning Spybot. Yeah. I never attached to him the way everyone else did. I feel like he was funny — a funny little goofy guy — but he just didn’t have the same impact as, like, Chopper, BB-8, or obviously R2-D2 and C-3PO, but they’re on their own pedestal. He kind of felt like a fun little comic relief, and when he died and said “master,” I was like, damn, that’s tough. But I kind of felt the same for him as I felt for that weird little droid that followed Cad Bane around. I was like, damn.
Erin
I liked him too.
Alex
Yeah, but he was just kind of there — he wasn’t a huge character. I’m sorry.
Matthew
To me it was like K-2SO levels of — I was getting a little tired of him, so I was like, I didn’t want him in season two. It felt like the right time to be done with him, but it definitely hit me hard.
Erin
I can’t — for me, I love nothing more than a bad guy having a little droid sidekick that he really likes but won’t really admit that he likes. And the droid is very useful in certain ways but also just an annoying little piece of work sometimes. But he would die for that droid. He freaked out when they killed Spybot, and I think that’s true. Something Matthew pointed out is that in certain books and comics it’s kind of canon that Maul likes to make his own droids. So that’s like Anakin losing R2 to him. Well.
Matthew
Anakin didn’t make R2 — he made C-3PO.
Alex
Got her. Got her.
Matthew
Got her. I understand your point entirely. It’s okay, it’s okay.
Alex
Erin has left the building in a silent protest.
Matthew
That’s fair. That’s fair. Yeah, to me one of the most insightful parts of the whole Spybot arc is we see — not only is it sad that Spybot dies, but Maul clearly reacts. At the same time, Maul has all these Mandalorians who are with him, and they all die. He’s got a couple of Zabrak brothers — they die. He’s just not — the fact that Spybot’s death is the one that gets to him, when the Mandalorians and the Zabraks don’t, says so much about him. Poor Rook Kast — she 100% thought she was part of his plans.
Alex
She’s not dead. Are you sure? I’m strongly of the view she’s not dead — we saw every character’s death on screen except hers. She’s carried away into the smoke.
Erin
I have some bad news for you. The actress has spoken — they asked her how she wanted her character to die, and she said she likes to imagine that Darth Vader ripped her lungs out through her throat. So I tried to.
Alex
But I’m going to say — especially in Star Wars…
Matthew
But why would they be asking her how she wanted her character to die? We heard crunching noises.
Alex
I heard it too, but I don’t believe it until I see it. We have seen characters survive what should be fatal moments and come back in this franchise. An offscreen death I just can’t accept until it’s confirmed.
Matthew
Fair enough. Regardless, because Darth Maul isn’t monitoring her vitals at the time, my point still stands — he showed far more emotion at Spybot’s death than at the death of all these people who had pledged their loyalty to him. What do we think of where the show is going to fit in with the rest of Star Wars? Like, Asajj Ventress might show up in a later season. Is there anything else being created right now about this time period? The Bad Batch is done. The Mandalorian is set a couple of years after all this — wait, no. Yeah, Mando is happening way later, after Return of the Jedi. So yeah.
Erin
Yeah, Mando’s after all that. I don’t think there’s any other media that’s either already in production or that we’re seeing already that’s set in this time period. I know I agree — I don’t think there’s anything really, I mean maybe some books or comics that I’m not as tapped into. But it doesn’t mean we can’t see characters that have been featured in, like, The Bad Batch, even though it’s over. I don’t really think the Bad Batch rolling up would fit in at all, but we’ve met some other interesting side characters throughout that show that could play a part — ones that are kind of part of the underworld or whatnot. Or we could just have fairly few cameos, and I’m okay with that too. I’m all about new characters. All the new characters we’ve gotten so far have been, in my opinion, great. Sorry, I was just Googling about Rook.
Alex
If she’s actually dead then I’m upset about it. I hate an offscreen death, especially for a major character in the series.
Matthew
That was not an offscreen death. That’s like saying we didn’t actually see Vader stab Daki. Yes we did — we cut to a scene of his lightsaber already in him.
Alex
Okay, yes, it was already in there. I feel like that’s an on-then-off-screen death. I don’t know. If we’d at least seen her helmet drop or something — I just.
Erin
Yeah, I wanted just a little… You have this main character sucked into the fog, you hear all these scary noises — I don’t know.
Alex
Well, I didn’t see it happen, so. I guess he probably felt it in the Force. But.
Matthew
I don’t think he was mad about her. I think he was mad because it was Vader. Vader is like his ex’s new person, you know? He’s been so betrayed by Sidious, and definitely has that feeling of — no, I don’t want to meet Sidious’s apprentice again. But now here’s the new apprentice to Sidious. Right. Maul is seeing the ex got together with someone who is wealthier, prettier, more powerful, better skill set.
Alex
Yeah, basically.
Erin
And Maul’s like, no — but you love me, right?
Matthew
Erin, any quotes you want to hit us with? Any last comments from your list?
Erin
One thing I just loved: throughout the entire time that Vader was on screen, two or three of them would force-push him and he’d slide back like five feet, and then he’d just smash them against a wall. He’s like, oh, you want to play push? Let’s play push.
Matthew
I’m not sure it wasn’t just that they had no effect on him — they had that small effect and he’d be like, okay, yeah, sure. I’ll do that times ten.
Alex
He was busted through the wall right next to them. He was toying with them a little bit. And it’s interesting because we saw rocks and rubble falling down on him, which — we’ve seen that happen in a lot of different fights. Everyone eventually realizes we can’t win, so let me try throwing a building on this guy.
Matthew
And I was mentioning how in the books, especially Legends canon, that’s how Palpatine kills his master. That’s how Bane kills the Twi’lek swordmaster — when the guy was about to outdo him, pulling down rocks or a temple ceiling on a Sith master to take them out is a Sith tradition.
Alex
Or throw him down a reactor shaft. Rocks fall, your master dies. Except Obi-Wan threw rocks at Vader in the Obi-Wan Kenobi series, and it seemed to affect him a little more because he was so emotionally volatile.
Erin
Yeah, and that’s also a very powerful Jedi in a very emotional situation.
Alex
Anakin — Vader — depending on the moment in that battle.
Matthew
Yeah. I mean, Sidious calls him Vader, but to me until he’s got the mask on, he’s not Vader.
Alex
No, I’m sorry — I meant Obi-Wan in the Obi-Wan Kenobi series.
Matthew
Oh, okay. Right. When he’s still switching back and forth, code-switching — because it would be Obi-Wan.
Alex
My favorite place in all of Star Wars. Okay, let’s finish this first and I have a question for the two of you.
Matthew
Cool. A question!
Alex
Stay classy, Janik City.
Erin
No, my friend, we’re having a debate — another huge Star Wars fan of mine was arguing which is the worst Star Wars movie, and I feel pretty strongly that Attack of the Clones is the worst Star Wars movie. But specifically it was between Attack of the Clones and The Last Jedi. He was just laying into The Last Jedi. He said, you should talk about this on your podcast, and I’m like, I have a Last Jedi lover on my podcast so I will gladly discuss this.
Alex
You both agree that The Last Jedi is better than Attack of the Clones? Or do you disagree?
Erin
Oh, I agree.
Matthew
I’m so close to the mute button right now. No — The Last Jedi is one of the top three Star Wars movies. Thank you.
Alex
I’m on the side that The Last Jedi is better than Attack of the Clones, by a lot. He was like, you have the epic Battle of Geonosis. And I’m like, okay, one great scene does not make the entire movie better than Episode Eight, which is better across the board.
Matthew
Also that scene is terribly shot. There’s no emotional weight to it, because we see so few of the Jedi deaths, and when we do they’re almost always at a distance.
Alex
To be fair, when you’re a little kid seeing all the Jedi fight was really fun.
Matthew
I was 24 when I saw that movie.
Alex
I was like seven.
Matthew
I’m just saying. To me the interesting debate, as part of fandom, is which do you think is worse — Attack of the Clones or Rise of Skywalker?
Alex
It’s really funny actually, Matthew. I rewatched Rise of Skywalker the other day and I am souring on it.
Matthew
Oh — let me finish the thought, I’m trying to finish. You kept interrupting me. Yes, I’ve muted you now. To me the nature of the debate is which is worse: the movie that is actually worse in terms of dialogue, directing, cinematography, and stuff like that — or the movie that is worse in terms of the overall story. Because I think Attack of the Clones is a great part of the Star Wars story. It moves you from Episode One to Episode Three. It helps set up The Clone Wars. It does all of the things you want it to do as a Star Wars movie. It’s just that, as a piece of well-made cinema, it looks like it’s made by a high school theater group — or most theater groups probably do much better. Rise of Skywalker, on the other hand — brilliantly acted, wonderful dialogue, beautiful cinematography, all of these things. It’s just total nonsense as a Star Wars movie.
Alex
I rewatched the sequels for my Star Wars Day marathon and when I got to Episode Nine, similarly I was like — the cinematography is really good, beautiful visuals. But I was like, Jesus Christ, none of this makes sense. I understand that I defended it very viciously like a year or so ago. I still find the movie entertaining, I still enjoy watching it. But as I went through it I was like — watching this immediately after Episode Eight, the drop-off in story weight is huge. And J.J. really just went and reversed everything — all the character development that Kylo had, all the character development that Rey had.
Erin
What are we doing? And even within the story it kind of just jumped around so much. There was no real exposition — like, why does Threepio go with them? Why didn’t R2-D2 — I don’t know, a lot of the finer points. Yeah, it’s just… I’m souring on it as time goes on. So I would say The Clone Wars is definitely the better Star Wars movie — Attack of the Clones, I mean. Rise of Skywalker is better production quality, so it’s probably an overall push.
Matthew
Yeah, it depends on what you care about more, totally. If I’m just stuck in a hotel room and I’ve got nothing else to do, I’d much rather watch Rise of Skywalker — I think it’s a much more entertaining movie. But in terms of movies I reference on this podcast, or if someone asks me about character beats that get paid off, I’m going to reference Attack of the Clones so much more.
Erin
I get that. I personally disagree — I would still watch Attack of the Clones over Rise of Skywalker.
Alex
How many times have you even seen Rise of Skywalker though? You told me twice.
Erin
Yeah, so I haven’t seen it that many times. Attack of the Clones is just nostalgic, it’s fun, it’s random, I know where the story goes. Whereas I feel like I watch Rise of Skywalker and I don’t have as much background on the sequels compared to obviously the Clone Wars era. Like, I’ve seen all the sequel movies several times, but Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker I think I’ve seen them twice, maybe three times each. So I just don’t have that level of familiarity. I feel like I’m even more confused when I watch Rise of Skywalker, especially if I haven’t just watched The Last Jedi, because I’m like, wait, is this continuity? Is this not? Is there something I’m missing? Did J.J. just throw this in to hearken back to the first movie? But I get what you’re saying — I totally agree that Rise of Skywalker is a more visually pleasing movie and it’s an easier watch if you’re coloring while watching. Whereas if you’re sitting there really watching it and trying to understand it, it can be a harder watch.
Alex
The humor felt a little belabored the last time I watched it. It really felt like they were trying to make every possible joke at every moment. Okay guys, we’re overdoing some of this stuff.
Matthew
I think when we talk about Attack of the Clones, it’s that for me especially in this day and age, Anakin’s basically an incel in that movie. The whole thing — the fact that Lucas calls it a romance when it is so incredibly toxic. They kiss and later he’s like, “I’m haunted by the memory of the kiss you never should have given me.” Throw a drink in his face and walk out. If anyone ever uses that kind of line on you — yeah, that earns a throat punch. I think I would have liked Anakin a lot more in Revenge of the Sith if I hadn’t seen that, but I saw it and I was like, Anakin is an asshole. He does not deserve a queen like Padmé. And as a Skywalker fan, that’s painful.
Alex
Because I’m an Anakin defender — I’m not defending his behavior necessarily — however, we do have to remember that he was a slave and then taken into an order of monks that wouldn’t allow any sexual expression whatsoever. So the guy had absolutely no one to talk to about this, no way to learn.
Matthew
So we give him a pass? No, no.
Alex
Like, how do you learn how to talk to anyone if you’re having all these feelings going through puberty and there’s just no one you can trust to talk to — it’s just you in your own head?
Matthew
When I first started using a prosthetic leg I was awkward as hell. I was using muscles I hadn’t used in literally years. I stepped on people’s feet. It wasn’t my fault — I was just learning. But I still said sorry. That didn’t diminish the pain that I caused. And if someone wrote a story about someone being like, “Oh, you stepping on my foot doesn’t hurt at all” — I think that’s a bad story. I’m so mad at the idea that Padmé would fall for that.
Alex
I’m not arguing with you at all, Matthew — it makes no sense that Padmé falls for Anakin. I’m arguing that I feel for Anakin’s clumsy, painful efforts at flirtation, because he had absolutely no way to know what he was doing was wrong.
Matthew
But I think I would believe that if I thought the director knew what he was doing was wrong. If Padmé had acted like, “Okay, you’re being shitty and manipulative right now,” and then later Anakin had been different and that’s the side of him she fell for — I’d be with you. But for that argument to make sense, the writer and director have to know what he’s doing is shitty, and there’s no evidence of that whatsoever. They think he’s being romantic, and that’s what makes that movie cringe-worthy.
Alex
The writer and director being George Lucas.
Erin
I think for me, coming from a very conservative background and also as a woman, watching that growing up — none of that was red-flaggy to me, because, like Alex is saying, nobody talked about feelings or sexual stuff. If a guy was awkward about it, that’s just how it was. A man being controlling or forward — well, that’s how a man is supposed to be. He runs a household. And I think it’s very much a sign of the times in which it was made. A lot of older literature has manipulative male characters in romantic roles, and that was just accepted. And there’s also a level of trauma bonding with Padmé — someone just tried to assassinate her in her bed, and now she’s alone with this guy, and she’s like, I don’t know, maybe I have thought about you over the years.
Matthew
And then he’s being all weird. So I can see how, with the trauma bond, they may end up in a place of romance. But I don’t think, knowing what I know about Padmé throughout the show and literature — and same for Anakin — I don’t see her falling for that version of him. But throughout The Clone Wars, while their romance certainly isn’t perfect, I think it is a little more believable.
Alex
That’s because he’s a much more confident warrior type in The Clone Wars. Yes.
Matthew
And to be clear, I’m not saying we should all hate this movie because of that. For its time, yeah — I understand. It’s kind of like the way I loved Ghostbusters as a kid and I still love it, but I cringe at all the stalker-plot stuff that we thought was romantic in the eighties. I think it’s the same kind of thing. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with loving it when you’re a kid, and like you said, a lot of kids of all genders did see it as romantic. I don’t blame them. I think that’s the problem. So many young boys watched this and imprinted on Anakin. I imagine if you took a poll of incels — this movie didn’t cause that by any means — but I’m guessing a lot of them are hardcore Anakin fans. I think this is certainly part of that. Anyway, we are so far away from Maul right now, and I apologize.
Alex
Yeah, I asked the question. No, it’s a good question.
Alex
But Alex, if you’re listening to this — screw you. I was right.
Matthew
I’m glad he’s your friend, but I just have no time at this point for Last Jedi haters. Like, the debate has been happening so long. And it’s okay if you don’t like the movie.
Alex
The Last Jedi just gets better with age. As I watched it, like — Andor actually somehow made The Last Jedi an even better movie. It took some of the concepts Rian Johnson introduced and fleshed them out in the Empire era instead of the post-Empire era.
Matthew
I mean, I’m sure the next time I watch it and Luke talks about the failure of the Jedi, I’m going to think about Master Daki.
Alex
And just Luke’s death hits so hard every time. After performing the greatest show of a Jedi’s Force power you’ve ever seen. Non-violence. Non-violence. We got General Grievous 1 and General Grievous 2 over here.
Erin
And I’m the only one who smokes.
Matthew
You vape — it’s not the same. Oh, I smoke weed. Oh, you actually smoke — got it. Okay.
Alex
I don’t know what character you would be in the Star Wars universe. Maybe Yoda — you’re assuming he’s high. Do we know that? Okay. Matthew’s so confused. We’re so off topic.
Matthew
I’m just thinking of Grogu with a blunt. I’m going to go check her Instagram name. What was it again? Oh yes — Lady Ahsoka. Lady Tano.
Alex
But Ahsoka doesn’t seem high. Yoda seems high. I can see Ahsoka hitting a point though.
Erin
She is not the smoking type. I could see her being down with it, but no, she would not smoke.
Matthew
Okay, they were both just talking nonsense. It was time to go. So on behalf of myself, Alex, and Erin, thank you all so much. You’ve been great fans. I appreciate you coming to this podcast. Please write in. Let us know your thoughts. We’ll probably start talking about some other things but we’ll definitely do a feedback episode about Maul at some point later. So if you’ve got thoughts on that, write in. TheEthicalPanda.com is where you find all the show notes, all the ways to contact us, all the awesome things that Alex is doing, and all the awesome things that Erin is doing. Most importantly though, thank you all so much for listening.
