Matthew
I was hoping for Kenobi. But instead I have Pete Wright and AK, and we are here on the Star Wars Generations Podcast to talk about Maul: Shadow Lord. We are up to episode six and we’re checking in. Pete was here for the discussion of the early episodes. AK hasn’t had a little bit of an obsession with someone who they were trying to get revenge on — there might be some relevant things to discuss here with Maul: Shadow Lord. So I’m so glad to have both of you on. I of course am Matthew, your host. AK, let’s just jump in with you. We’re halfway through Shadow Lord. What do you think so far?
AK
Yeah, I mean I’m really enjoying it. I think what’s strange to me is I’m watching this show and I love this show, and I’m a little bit like, why is this a Maul show? That’s kind of my primary feeling, because I feel like the new characters that have been introduced are super interesting and super compelling. And I’m loving seeing Maul just kind of aura farm all over the place. But I’m interested to see where they’re going to go with him as a character. I feel like there’s a lot of implied growth that has happened for this character between the last time we saw him and where he is now. I’m curious how we’re going to have continuity between end-of-Clone-Wars Maul, Maul: Shadow Lord Maul, and Rebels Maul — how we’re going to make those connections happen. So that’s what I’m most interested in seeing, I think.
Matthew
Just for Pete and for any of our listeners — can you explain what the term aura farming means?
AK
Yeah, I mean, he just looks swag is all get out. He’s really just there to pose on losers, I guess. He’s got a presence, you know — he walks into a room and the whole room kind of stops and looks at Maul, and that’s just always who he’s been as a character. And it’s good to see that come back in a way that’s being really well done. The animation is beautiful. I’m really enjoying that a lot too.
Matthew
I think that’s a great way to describe it. But I think it kind of addresses what you were saying at the beginning — that Maul isn’t necessarily the main character in that he’s the person with the most lines in this show. But he is the center of gravity in this show. Everything that is happening, all of the other characters’ storylines are being deeply affected by him. It’s almost sort of like you could watch the TV show The Acolyte — you could also call it The Stranger, because it was just about him and how he influenced the Acolyte’s journey. And I think this time we’re getting a little more focus on him than we did on the Stranger. But still, all these other people — Devon, Daki, Lawson, Riley — all their stories are being deeply affected by what’s happening with Maul.
Pete
Yeah, I think he is more effective. Let me just say — I knew what aura farming was, Matthew, for the record. I think it is a really provocative position that they make this character so central to the title card, and yet he’s barely in five and six. But when he is — that opening sequence of six, when he’s doing his routine, his sort of kata, whatever they call that — it gives us a sense of interiority for Maul that I don’t know that we’ve ever gotten for that character. The fact that he’s barely in the thing until the tram sequence where he takes over — they damn near make Maul a sympathetic character. And I think that’s a bit of jujitsu that they’re doing in this show, to make us care and reframe the orbit around which our understanding of Maul lives for every other interpretation of the character. That’s fascinating.
Matthew
Well, one phrase that I’ve been using a lot — and I want to hear if you two agree — is that Maul to me is a Cassandra figure. He’s always telling the truth. And this is true going all the way back to the end of The Clone Wars, where what he’s telling Ahsoka is literally what’s actually happening — Palpatine is Sidious, and Anakin’s going to fall. Ahsoka doesn’t want to believe it. Here he’s telling Devon all of these things, like, the Empire is taking over, we need to fight it, we can’t just be complacent and hide the way your master does. The master is saying Maul is full of lies, Maul has an agenda, Maul is manipulating her — but he’s not lying. And the same thing will happen with him and Ezra in Rebels. And for me, that’s where a lot of the sympathy comes from. I know he’s a terrible guy, I know he has his own agenda, but he’s also the only one who knows the truth and no one will believe him. And to me, that just makes him someone you have to cry along with.
AK
Yeah, Maul is a very tragic character. And I know I’ve heard Sam Witwer describe him before as a very Sisyphus-like character — he just keeps pushing that rock up the hill. And in the existentialist sense of, we’re all people who have gone through hard things and are still trying to find reasons to keep going, I think Maul is very sympathetic because he has been through a lot. We know he’s been discarded and left behind and abused and gone through some really messed-up stuff. And now he’s just like, well, where do I find my allies to try and take back what’s mine? And that’s pretty compelling. I think what’s funny about what we’re already seeing of Maul is — I’m not sure it actually lines up with the Maul we know. And I think that has a lot of potential that I’m excited about on the one hand. And on the other hand, I’m like, ooh, are they going to be able to square this? The opening sequence where he’s doing the form — I’ve rewatched that like five times in a row, and then went and immediately watched the Phantom Menace fight, and then went and watched the Clone Wars fight with him and Ahsoka, because that form does not fit his usual fighting style at all. And that could be a really interesting thing, or it could be something that just kind of isn’t explained. I’m hoping they give us some answers for that.
Pete
Yeah, that is the sort of juggernaut of a task that comes from — and I think it’s a Filoni-esque kind of operation where you just write yourself into a corner and say, I wonder if we can get out of it. That’s what makes it fun. But I totally see that it could also be an oncoming trainwreck — just not being able to square this character who is, by all accounts, beloved by a lot of fans in this universe. It is a complicated character. But hearing you talk about it makes me push back on this idea of Maul being manipulative. Is he manipulative if he’s speaking the truth? He has an agenda, but at no point is he using facts against anyone — he’s just like, I’m going to tell you what’s happening. And his line, “Now you have seen the face of evil — you have seen the face of your enemy” — it rings really loud in the context of Maul being a speaker of truth.
Matthew
I guess for me — and this is how I can address both of these — I think a lot of where the manipulation comes from is the way he is very intentionally pushing Devon towards the dark side. And I think it’s one of the best seductions to the dark side. And I hate that “seduction” is the best word, because he’s an adult and she’s a teenage girl, and I don’t mean it in that sense at all. But I do think it’s an appropriate word if you can divorce it from that container.
Pete
But that’s the same thing that Jen does, though.
Matthew
I mean, they’re all — yeah, well, that’s what it means.
Pete
And I think it’s really important to me that he’s not just pushing children into action.
Matthew
He’s bringing her into that mindset. And I think he’s very intentionally pushing buttons. But I think you’re right. And here’s where I think it does really fit with who he is — I think the low-hanging fruit would have been for this show to basically make him Saw Gerrera or Luthen, but even more so: yes, he has bad methods, yes, you disagree with him, but he’s basically just one more rebel fighting the Empire. And I like that they’re not doing that. He is still very much trying to take over a criminal enterprise. He is not anywhere close to anti-hero status. He is a bad guy who is killing innocent people because he wants power. He just also happens to understand that Darth Sidious and the Empire are real, real bad. And I think that, like — if the end result is that Devon goes to seek out Luthen or whatever group is out there, that’s not what he wants. He wants Devon to work with him so that he can replace Sidious. So to me, that’s why I still think of him as manipulative, because there is still very much his own agenda that he is somewhat hiding from Devon as he tries to push her along — along with also the way he’s manipulating all these different criminal groups to fight with each other, again so that he can take power.
Pete
I think there’s a bit of armchairing going on where I want to push back and have no data to do this with. But I do feel like if Devon came to Maul and said, why are you doing this? I have no doubt in my mind that he would say actively exactly what you just described. And is that manipulation? That’s just a presentation of current events. “Let the facts speak for themselves” is Maul’s identity.
AK
I think Maul is lying to himself too much to be able to intentionally lie to other people. Maul thinks he wants revenge. And maybe this is where the fighting style thing gets squared — when he’s doing his form, he’s got this very fluid, very high swordsman-style movement. But when he’s in the moment, when he’s in the fight, he fights like a brute. And I think it’s very similar philosophically. He has all these high-minded ideas. He thinks he’s evolved. But at the end of the day, he’s deeply steeped in the dark side, and that gets the better of him. Why is he fighting crime lords? If he wants to deal with Palpatine, go deal with Palpatine — there’s bigger stuff out there for you to be doing. You don’t need revenge on all these small crime bosses you’re dealing with. So he’s being genuine to Devon, but he’s lying to himself about his own motivations and his own status in the world he’s in.
Matthew
And I think that right there is what squares the circle for me about where he fits. I agree the lightsaber stuff might be different — although I will say, I’ve been banging the drum for a while that if you’re a Star Wars Legends fan, more and more stuff from those books is being brought into these stories. And one thing he often does in the Legends books is practice his forms and his fighting. This is actually something that Jonah and I talked about in our episode about the myth of Maul and the way he appears in those Legends novels. Because what we talked about is he wants to be Sidious — he wants to be the master manipulator and the politician. But he wasn’t raised to that. He was raised to be an attack dog, raised to be brutal violence and fighting. And in some ways that’s the curse he’s always had. And again, I’m a very big believer in explanations not excuses. The fact that he is a person who was horrifically abused as a child does not excuse the terrible things he does now, but it certainly helps explain it. And I think the idea that he always wanted Sidious to look at him the way he looks at Anakin — and instead Sidious only ever saw him as: go kill these people, go steal this thing, go do that — it makes sense that not only is he still that, but he’s jealous of Anakin. Anakin is what he always wanted to be to Sidious. Anakin is his life’s fader.
Pete
Yeah, it’s funny to hear you say that because we’re painting a picture of Maul as a character whose aspirations exceed his abilities. And that, as a fan, is almost hard to swallow, because it rings as accurate. And it makes this character deeply sad — much more dour and colorless than the impression you get in any of his interpretations on screen so far. Because ultimately, how could this end in his favor? We know where he goes, and he’s constantly in that Sisyphean role — constantly fighting the same battles and never really getting anywhere. And that is deeply sad.
Matthew
See, I would say that I think that’s been in his onscreen interpretations going all the way back — ever since he popped back up in Clone Wars. He had this tragic story with his brother and the attempt to get Sidious back in his favor. I think one of the best lines in all of Star Wars is where Ahsoka basically breaks him out of prison and he has a moment of, are we finally going to team up, are we going to fight the Empire? And she’s like, I want you to go fight these soldiers as a distraction. I’m not rooting for you. I get where she’s coming from, but it’s — forgive me for spoilers for some of us, ten years out — but in Rebels, his death scene, I cannot watch that without crying. It is such a beautiful, tragic death scene. And the fact that Obi-Wan is there to embrace him and hold him — you wish they would just kiss already, but it’s just such a — enemies to respecting each other. Putting the fanfiction aside, I think the tragedy has always been part of the onscreen stuff.
Pete
Yeah, that’s fair. It does give us — when you think about the characters under pressure, as good as episodes five and six are for Maul, it’s still just a reminder that Rook and the Mandalorians are under pressure figuring out what their role is in this criminal enterprise. And I think that’s the risk ahead — sort of three vectors. First of all, who is Merrick reporting to? What is the Imperial vector? What is his own potential for internal mutiny brewing around the Mandalorians — all while he’s making these decisions that everybody around him seems to think are suspect, his motivation to connect with Devon? And yet he’s still fighting that same ideological battle.
Matthew
AK, can we draw any parallels with another person who has authority over a group of people — you might even say a crew — but is so obsessed with one particular goal that a lot of them are questioning his sanity and whether he should be part of this project?
AK
Yeah, I mean, you know — Captain Ahab is a character who’s so classic in American literature, in part because it doesn’t have to go the way it does. He has people who actually care about him in the background, trying to push him down the right path. And I’m not sure Maul has that, or at least not something he has yet. Ahsoka is kind of the closest we get — a person who really tries to have a conversation with him and push him down the right path. What’s interesting about Rook and the two Zabrak brothers — one of them is named Icarus, and I don’t remember the other one’s name — is that we see them following Maul with this quiet and undying loyalty, but nobody within Maul’s circle has really pushed back on him that hard yet. And I’m waiting for the moment when that happens, to see whether Maul will take some sort of redirection, or do the classic Sith thing of, you questioned me, so now you die. Because I think this is the most refined we’ve seen Maul — he’s acting very controlled, at least for the most part right now. His interactions with Devon: very careful, very precise, very calm. And I’m wondering if that will translate when one of his internal crew tries to push him in a direction, the way that, you know, Captain Ahab was never going to accept, because he had already gone so far down this path that even his closest friends couldn’t get to him. Now, I’m not sure that Maul is actually 100% there yet. And where he ends up in Rebels makes me think he maybe wasn’t, because he does kind of get more and more willing to let parts of Sith philosophy go so that he can get to these aims that are secondary or tertiary. And I don’t think Maul has a white whale the same way Ahab does — his white whale is maybe Palpatine, but he’s not going straight for Palpatine. He’s picking off these other smaller things on the way. And Ahab, as soon as they’re on the boat, is like, we are here for one thing and one thing only, which is Moby Dick. And Maul’s not doing that, which is really interesting, because I’m again wondering how he squares that with himself — he has these big philosophical ideological goals, and his actions aren’t directly aimed at them. So what are they?
Pete
Yeah, it’s actually interesting because there’s the long-term motivation and the short-term motivation. And I’m with you — I wonder what the ultimate motivation is, and whether it does end at Palpatine, because right now it seems like he’s collecting power, he has this mafioso drive to just be the head of something. I’m not sure how well thought out that is if the ultimate design is to get to Palpatine. On a broad-strokes level, eventually he’ll get to Palpatine somehow. But I don’t know if the micro stories support that as well.
Matthew
Yeah, no, I think that’s fair. I mean, I think in part — he has mentioned Sidious once or twice already in this show, and talks about it obviously in both Rebels and Clone Wars. But I think it’s part of that idea that he’s not a great planner. In his head, he knows you amass a power base in order to take on another power base. But the details are not his thing.
Pete
Well, the other piece is that this could also be turned into a father-son story. Palpatine was his motivating anchor for a long time. And the act of him collecting power from the ground up is also kind of a demonstration of, like — dad, look how far I’ve come without you. This is an establishment of my identity. And I’m doing it on the dark side, and that may not be great for the rest of the universe, but I’m doing it to show you what I can do, and look how powerful I can become out of your shadow. And he needs Palpatine alive and well to see that happen in order for that bit of interiority to come to the surface.
Matthew
Yeah, no, and I do think that’s true. And I think that in some ways Obi-Wan has also been a stand-in for that kind of relationship — although not at this point in the story, because he thinks Obi-Wan is dead. So it makes sense to shift back to Palpatine. Because we’re talking about fathers and sons, I want to get to Merrick and some other things. But let’s talk a bit about — I’m liking the show, and somehow it makes it work, but it does feel like we have three or four different genres all happening at the same time. We’ve got our short little guy who thinks he’s in The Wire or The Sopranos or something like that. But in the not-terribly-imaginatively-named Officer Lawson — who is the lawman with a plot about his son — we see more about that plot, we hear about his ex-wife who’s joined the Empire and is clearly having trouble acknowledging that the Empire might be bad. It just feels like I am watching that story, and it fits, but it also feels like I’m so ready for Bruce Willis to play this character, you know? I’ve seen this struggling-single-dad cop story so many times. How is Lawson’s story hitting you?
AK
I am really liking the dynamic between Lawson and his son, and particularly Two Boots, and kind of the commentary going on about what happens when the government is corrupt and you have law enforcement that’s automated, because they think they have this relationship with Two Boots that does not actually exist, because Two Boots’s protocol is to serve a fascist empire. And I think that has been a really interesting thing to watch play out, especially because Lawson’s having to go, okay, am I actually going to stick with law enforcement? And in an age of really having conversations about what the role of law enforcement is — and whether or not you could be a good person and stay in a position of power that’s being run by a fascist empire — I think that’s really compelling. I don’t know that I care yet that much about whatever’s going on between him and his son specifically. I hope that I will at some point, but if not, whatever — sometimes Star Wars is just dressed up like that.
Matthew
Space Cop with Lawson has not caught your attention yet?
AK
No, but I do think the dynamic within the station is really interesting.
Pete
That’s definitely my place too. Lawson’s son has given me very little to be interested in so far. I don’t know that trying to set up the relationship between Brander — is that the detective’s name? — and Riley, and putting Riley and Devon together, was terribly compelling as an action beat. I didn’t need that. I am vastly more interested in the ongoing discussion of Two Boots’s blind faith in protocol. That entire discussion of, this is going to be fine, you’re all just underestimating protocol — and then it observably not being fine — was a really fun bit to watch. And I think the little moments that tell so much story, right? Going into the interrogation room and seeing the scratches on the desk — that’s a lot of storytelling in a very compact space.
Matthew
Yeah, I really agree. I’m laughing at the nineties cop movie kind of attitude of it because I don’t really know why it’s there. The story of his ex-wife having gone to work for the Empire gives some flavor to it, but a lot of it seems very tropey. And I agree — I really don’t want a Riley-Devon romance. I think there’s something about her being at the age where part of her questioning the Jedi is, hey, wait, boys are cute — why am I supposed to not think about that? Or girls are cute, or whatever it is — hormones are a thing.
Pete
Cute is cute.
Matthew
Cute is cute. And a teenager denying all of your hormonal instincts is maybe not the best path — that’s a worthy story. But there’s nothing about Riley that I’m finding compelling there. And I love what you two both homed in on, because to me — as a look at our own world — one thing I think about a lot is: I grew up, and my father was definitely a, if you have a problem, call the cop, it’s going to be okay kind of person. And I certainly don’t believe that. Particularly after living under Giuliani. And I very much don’t believe that now. And I think, if one of my friends, particularly a friend of color, is having a real episode, calling the cops could be putting them in real danger. And that’s very much the story I’m seeing here — of Two Boots being the one who doesn’t get it. One of my favorite lines is when he says to Riley, thinking this is very assuring: when and if your father comes out of interrogation, I’m sure everything will be fine. You don’t put “if” in that sentence if you’re trying to be reassuring.
Pete
It’s interesting what they give to Two Boots too, right? They do give him a bit of identity concern when the lieutenant says, take off your boots. That is in the name, man. That is like questioning a default protocol for this robot, and giving the robot a chance to reflect. I think that was a nice little beat. The thing I have a question for both of you about is: how did these episodes hit you with regard to the stuff that I really liked the most — the Janix kind of crime noir story regarding the police, some of my favorite stuff in the first four episodes. And now I worry about us landing in a much more familiar, oh no, Jedi purge story. And that feels like one of the Star Wars tropes that the Star Wars industrial complex is not able to let go right now. I worry about that, because I think it’s worth debating where the story starts to shift in a way that lets go of novelty and lets go of some of the insight — playing some new instruments in Star Wars. Do you guys have thoughts?
Matthew
So I’m a big believer that in rehabilitation stories and in stories of people trying to conquer their own demons, you have to reward victories even if they’re small. And when Master Daki said, you have to understand the tragedy that we lived through — the purge — Filoni wrote a flashback scene that was supposed to happen, and somehow he was convinced: we can have one piece of product that doesn’t include an Order 66 flashback scene. And I want to give him flowers for that. I want to say, good job — you came right up to the edge, you filled the needle, you had it near your arm, but you put the bottle down. To mix the metaphors. I was really glad we didn’t have that flashback. I was thinking in some ways I’m a little sad that we have sort of been told that Darth Talon is supposed to come about, because given everything we know about Darth Talon, Devon is a much more likely candidate. Part of what I was thinking is that we’ve seen numerous occasions now of a Padawan’s master being killed in part because they’re not willing to do what they need to do to survive in the post-Order 66 world, and so the Padawan joins the dark side. I think it’d be kind of more interesting if Devon dies and Master Daki joins the dark side. But I don’t know if a short little lizard man is going to become the super sexy Darth Talon that the fanboys are wanting — which I hope they’re not going to go that direction anyway. But we’re set up pretty clearly for it to be Devon, and I do think it’s going to be a little tropey. I wish we weren’t quite as on rails with that.
AK
One of my hopes is that this Inquisitor they’ve introduced — which I don’t think we’ve seen before — love them, their vibe is great. My hope is that they are somehow a bigger piece of this story than it’s looking like right now. Because I feel like if Devon realizes that, oh, this is a Jedi who’s now hunting down another Jedi — or Devon has an encounter with this Inquisitor where — because I imagine what’s going to happen is this Inquisitor is going to kill Daki, and then Devon’s going to go ballistic about it, and then Maul is going to be like, haha. But I think it’d be more interesting if this Inquisitor character plays a different role — like joins up with Maul, or joins up with the Jedi to get Maul. Does the Inquisitor care more about getting the Jedi here, or getting Maul? And what are these other two characters going to do in relation to that? I think that would be interesting to see. But I am worried we’re just going to go down the expected route — this Inquisitor is going to kill the Jedi Master, the kid’s going to get upset, Maul is going to be the obvious turn to.
Matthew
So we do sort of know who the Inquisitor is, from Ahsoka. It was not mentioned in the show itself, but if you watched with captions on, the character’s named as Merrick. And Merrick is the force user — not Balan and his apprentice. I think it’s spelled H-E-I then Shinn — Hadi? Shinn? Hadi. But the other one who might have been like a — you know, a green gas ghost. We’re not sure. So I don’t think — the last response episode to these said that well, but he is essentially plot armor. We know he lives, and Aaron pointed out: no, we don’t, because he could get zombified by Ahsoka. So we know some of his background, but not all. Because yeah, I think it’d be great if he becomes Maul’s apprentice. But I’m torn, because I do think — and again, I’m a huge Acolyte stan, as much as I think that show had a lot of problems — but as much as I love the original trilogy, I have always thought that Palpatine’s scheme of, hey Luke, look, there’s a trap — ha ha ha, I’m so good, I’m going to make you fall into the trap, aren’t I tricky? And Luke saying, no, I’m not going to fall into the trap — is not a very good story. And I love stories where it is. So to me, those scenes of Maul subtly pushing Devon’s buttons and drawing out her anger and her resentments — I think those are the best of the show so far. And I wouldn’t mind seeing more of that. But I do think you’re right: if we move away from the mob story and just get a lot of lightsaber battles and, oh no, Daki’s killed, none of us saw that coming, and oh no, Devon’s upset about that — that would be disappointing.
Pete
Yeah, I think it would, because it takes us a step back when so many of these other properties that were prematurely canceled were taking steps forward in ways that were really satisfying. And I hate to think that this, which has such a good start, is on track for a miss.
AK
I have a similar concern about whoever it was that this Inquisitor just reported to. I heard just hints of that dun-dun-dun at the end of that episode, and I’m like, are we going to get a Vader cameo? Because on the one hand, it’s hard to be bummed about that potentially being an option, because I love Darth Vader, it’d be super cool to see him show up. And on the other hand, I’m like, but now we’re in a show that’s going to be about Darth Vader for a minute, you know?
Pete
Yeah. And you’re damn sure you’re going to get a hallway fight scene again, right? I mean, maybe we could let it go. And you know what — I think when we were talking about episodes one and two, there was a part of me that thought, okay, by the end, we have to build toward a Sidious. At some point he’s already dropping the names, at some point he’s got to get there. Even though in my heart of hearts I would love it to be season two or season three — let’s give him some runway to actually tell some stories before he gets to the full vindication arc. But honestly, I don’t know if I’d be excited for either one of those to be the “My Lord” respondent. If it’s a Grand Inquisitor, right, some other sort of chain of command — would he be calling them “my lord”? I don’t think so really. But I’m really hoping it’s not who I think it is. I hope they throw something sideways, because everything else — more Inquisitors, even Vader himself — that lands hard in a kind of predictable way for episodes seven and eight.
Matthew
And it’s something we’ve seen a bunch, not only this, but also in the Jedi: Fallen Order games, that same plot line turns up there. And also just even if we get Vader, I think our choices are Hayden Christensen as voice actor — which doesn’t really seem right with all the voice box stuff — or the AI version of James Earl Jones, which, granted, James Earl Jones volunteered for — unlike a lot of the other people, like Peter Cushing with Tarkin — but still is going to feel weird. Or it’s someone trying to do an approximation of Vader, which doesn’t really work either. So yeah, I don’t love any of those options. I want the story to kind of stay here. And also, for me, one of the problems with prequels is you throw in a whole bunch of stuff and then wonder why the story that was made ten years ago never mentions these now very important plot details. We do know that later on in the story, Maul is going to talk to Ezra and talk to Obi-Wan about the list of grievances he has against Sidious. And so if he takes someone under his wing as an apprentice and we have two seasons of them getting really close, and then Sidious kills that apprentice, and now we go back to Rebels and he doesn’t mention that among his grievances — that’s going to be a problem. It’s part of why I thought the show Obi-Wan Kenobi had so many problems, because we go from the fight on Mustafar to the circle is now complete, and now it turns out there’s something in the middle, and it doesn’t fit. So I’m so excited about this show, and now you two are giving me all these reasons to be nervous.
AK
I’m kind of hopeful that Maul ultimately does to Devon what Sidious did to him — betraying his apprentice. I think that would be an interesting full-circle moment for Maul, to go, oh, the dark side actually does do this to people, and I’ve made this mistake the same way Sidious made it to me. Because I think if we had two seasons of them going through stuff together and then she turns on Maul, or she starts to go back towards the light side, or she makes a decision he doesn’t like and he goes, okay, we’re done now — that would be really compelling. But that requires the Sidious plot and the Empire thing being secondary to the Maul and Devon plot, which I’m not sure they’ll do.
Matthew
Yeah, because always, if this season is Darth Talon’s origin story — and I think they’re going to be okay with that — then we get a lot of, because remember also, one other thing we talked about: where he is in Clone Wars, where he is in Rebels. The next stop on the Maul story is Solo — us seeing him be the head of Crimson Dawn. And so if that’s what we kind of spend a lot of time building to, I think it works, because then it also is much more the mob story. And that short guy — I love him, I forget what his name is, but — Vario? Vario, thank you. I love Vario.
Pete
I like how he just keeps stroking his gills. Just makes me happy as a character move.
Matthew
Better than — what was the other one’s name? I think it’s like Maladictus or something. You put the two parts of his name together, they form a very obvious word — I can’t remember. We might get angry emails about that. But yeah, I love your idea, AK — I don’t want her to go back to the light, but like, if she joins the Inquisitors, maybe her and Rook team up to try and take Maul down. Because that’s what the dark side is supposed to do. That could be fun.
Pete
Can I ask a subject-change question? Speaking of armchairing — it feels to me like casting Tamlin Tomita as Devon’s mom, Riley’s mom — is a weird push, right? She obviously works somehow for the Empire. This is a very doilist approach to the show — I’m looking at it from a casting potential and not from in-story. But why do they give her, an actress with a hundred-and-fifty-some credits, decades in the business, incredible — a ninety-second scene? There’s got to be something going on with this family that needs to continue to be explored through the course of the story. There’s something going on here that I feel like I’m under-thinking, and that may give Riley more agency in the story. It may make Riley a more compelling character than just low-rent Dawson running around his dad’s office.
AK
Maybe Riley will end up working for the Empire. Maybe him and Devon’s friend will split.
Pete
Would that — that would be a story. Maybe Riley’s the next Inquisitor.
Matthew
First of all, stay — I’m glad you pointed that out because I had no idea who she was. I just don’t have a good ear for voices and I hadn’t looked it up. But especially given all the work she did in Cobra Kai, I probably should have been on track sooner. She made her debut as Danny’s love interest in The Karate Kid Part II, and then came back as that same character — yep. I think though, for me, part of the story they’re telling — and again, this is Filoni going back to his old favorites, but it is a really good favorite — is the slow story of the acceptance of fascism, and at the same time the slow building of resistance to it. And I think a story that has a great deal of relevance for us right now is what happens when the lived reality of your family clashes with the ideology that the church or the government or whoever is telling you. Because with Two Boots and the mother, we have these parallel stories where they’ve both been told it’s going to be okay, the Empire’s going to make it okay. So what happens to a woman when — does she still have feelings for her ex-husband? If he becomes an enemy of the Empire, does that make her more sympathetic to him? Does that make her more mad at him, and now want more custody of the kid because he’s putting the kid in danger and the Empire will keep them safe? Does it put the kid in a place where he has to choose between the two? I think it’s absolutely assured at this point that Two Boots is going to have a face turn. And whether Riley or the mother or anyone else has a face turn — or whether they become someone who just digs in and says, if you think the Empire is wrong, then you’re not my son anymore — I feel like there’s a story with incredible dramatic weight that can be told there. I don’t know if we have enough real estate for these characters to get there in a show that also is the mob story and also is the story of Devon’s fall. I’d love if they could do all three, but I think that’s what they’re trying to do, and I worry it’s going to get short-tripped because it is a very complex and hard story to tell.
Pete
I mean, we’ve done the great work of that story in Andor, right? Like, we’ve really done the great work of that story in Andor. And how much are they able to pull from that aesthetic, that cultural aesthetic, to get us to those same feelings? I don’t know.
AK
I could also see this being something that they develop if this show ends up with more seasons — laying some groundwork now and fleshing it out later. Because the other thing is, it’s a big name, it’s a big actress, but Star Wars is also known for throwing big people in and giving them short little roles because it’s a fun thing to do.
Matthew
Yeah, I think there’s a lot of actors out there who are very happy to have…
Pete
I’ll take ninety seconds in a Star Wars property any day.
Matthew
You remember Christian Slater waking up the captain in some Star Wars movie?
Pete
100%. Slater can say he was in a Star Wars movie. That was outstanding. So I know Pete, you have to go in a few minutes — AK, I don’t want to keep you too long either. We’ve talked about a lot of our concerns. We’ve got six more episodes. What are you excited about? What are you looking for in the rest of Maul?
AK
I am really excited to see Devon develop. I think her lightsaber form and fighting style is awesome — it’s one we’ve not really seen before. She struck this little pose early on and I was like, that’s a new iconic lightsaber pose immediately. So I’m excited to see her fight more, I’m excited to see her character go somewhere, I’m excited to see what breaks her. She’s kind of the most interesting part of this show to me and I’m already in love with her.
Pete
I’m finding myself intrigued by the Inquisitor role here. I think Merrick is a nice tease to throw into this show, especially because we saw the end of Merrick. So there is another kind of intercut parallelism between Maul and Merrick. And to see how Merrick goes from Inquisitor here to green gas bomb in Ahsoka — I’d kind of like to see how he becomes a ward of the Night Sisters.
Matthew
Night Sister magic. We know it’s all green gas. That’s a pretty dope transition. I have to say — we’ve had a lot of things to say critical of the Lawson-and-family storyline, but there was one moment that hit me so hard. Which is the moment where Lawson is coming around a corner, and he’s got his hand on the back of his neck and his elbow out because he’s nervous, and he turns the corner and he sees his son making the same gesture. And immediately you can see he has this moment of: that is my son, I love him. And why is he carrying the burdens of the world on his shoulders the way I am? It’s because he let these two Jedi stay with them. What an idiot my son is. I love him so much. And all of that was conveyed in a half-second look — which I would normally say is amazing acting, but here I’d say it’s amazing animation. That one moment was like — okay. I’ve had a rocky relationship with my dad, I love him very much, I’m here for father-son stories. Let’s go. All right, awesome. Well, AK, where can people find stuff you’re doing?
AK
I am on Instagram at Iron Kingdom Adventures, and I’m on Twitter as AK Made In.
Matthew
Awesome. Yeah, definitely check them out. Love the stuff you post, all the good stuff. And really excited to talk to you more about disability and those models you’re looking at. Mr. Pete, you do a podcast or two?
Pete
I do a podcast or two. You can find all the shows I’m up to at TruStory.fm. You can find my writing at ItsMePete.com. And you can find my books — I’ve got two now, one fiction, one nonfiction. The new one’s fiction. You should check it out. It’s called Lattice, and more is coming this year.
Matthew
Yeah, I finally have some downtime over this weekend and a plane ride next weekend, and I’m looking forward to reading it on at least one of those two occasions.
Pete
It’s a perfect plane ride book, I hear.
Matthew
I’m looking forward to it. It’ll be weird to not be on my phone. We’ll have to see how that works. All right, well, thank you both so much. It’s been a great conversation. Thank you to all of our fans and on behalf of all of us- Live Long and Prosper.
