2405@2x adhd all or nothing the adhd podcast

What’s in Between All and Nothing?

You can't do what you want to do. You never finish what you start. You aren't able to focus. Sure, we say this stuff to ourselves when our ADHD is getting the best of us. But how often is that really true? This week on the show, we example what lives between all and nothing and try to tackle the beast that is all-or-nothing thinking.

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You can’t do what you want to do. You never finish what you start. You aren’t able to focus. Sure, we say this stuff to ourselves when our ADHD is getting the best of us. But how often is that really true?

This week on the show, we examine what lives between all and nothing and try to tackle the beast that is all-or-nothing thinking with some tools you can employ right away.


Episode Transcript

Brought to you by The ADHD Podcast Community on Patreon

Pete Wright: Hello everybody. And welcome to Taking Control the ADHD Podcast on True Story FM, I’m Pete Wright and I’m here with Nikki Kinzer.

Nikki Kinzer: Hello everyone. Hello, Pete Wright.

Pete Wright: Hi Nikki.

Nikki Kinzer: Otherwise known as the alpha.

Pete Wright: You did it. You did it.

Nikki Kinzer: I did it.

Pete Wright: It’s now out there. All right.

Nikki Kinzer: It’s out there.

Pete Wright: Yep.

Nikki Kinzer: Anybody that listens to the pre-show will understand why.

Pete Wright: Will understand why.

Nikki Kinzer: Yeah.

Pete Wright: I am excited to be here. It’s just you and me today, it’s just-

Nikki Kinzer: Yes.

Pete Wright: The two of us. And we’re going to be talking about the mysterious liminal space between all and nothing. And then there will be some [crosstalk 00:00:50]-

Nikki Kinzer: An in between.

Pete Wright: Music in the background and-

Nikki Kinzer: Oh right.

Pete Wright: Cue the fog. The fog.

Nikki Kinzer: Lots of fog.

Pete Wright: Yeah, and I’m very excited-

Nikki Kinzer: Yeah. Imagine lots of fog in between the all and the nothing. Exactly.

Pete Wright: Yeah. Well, I mean, this comes up because it’s a client thing. You get this-

Nikki Kinzer: Oh.

Pete Wright: Is one of those concepts that continues to kind of resurface. It’s a hard thing for us.

Nikki Kinzer: It continues. Yes, yes. And it’s something that people don’t notice. And so that’s why I think it’s really important that we talk about it.

Pete Wright: Me too. Before we do that, head over to TakeControlADHD.com to get to know us a little bit better. You can listen to the show on the website or subscribe to the mailing list and you will get an email each time a new episode is released. You can connect with us on Twitter or Facebook @ TakeControlADHD. And I have to say, I am a grateful enthusiast of our sponsor this week. That’s right, Text Expander is back sponsoring the ADHD Podcast once again. What can you do with more hours every month? Repetitive typing, little mistakes, searching for answers. They’re all taking precious time away from you and your team. With Text Expander, you can take it back so you can focus on what matters most in your business. With Text Expander, you and your team can keep your message consistent, save time and be more productive, be accurate every time you type. The way we work is changing rapidly, make work happen wherever you are by saying more in less time and with less effort using Text Expander. You will never need to copy and paste repetitive responses again. With Text Expander, your knowledge will always be at your fingertips with a quick search or abbreviation. Here’s how it works. You drop your commonly used content into a Text Expander snippet and give it an abbreviation. You can then share that snippet with your entire team. And then anyone on your team can type just a few characters to trigger your snippet and the content expands anywhere they type, it is that easy. Text Expander is available on Mac, Windows, Chrome, iPhone iPad. And for listeners of the ADHD Podcast, you can get 20% off your first year of service. Just visit TextExpander.com/TakingControl, and you can sign up and get 20% off that first year. Again, TextExpander.com/TakingControl. And it even says, "Welcome Taking Control listeners." Aren’t they just so nice over there?

Nikki Kinzer: Awesome.

Pete Wright: Our great thanks to the Text Expander team for sponsoring the ADHD Podcast. And less we forget our members. Can I give a shout out-

Nikki Kinzer: Oh, please.

Pete Wright: People who have jumped in, in the last couple of weeks to support the ADHD community and this very podcast over on Patreon. If you’ve ever found that you understand your relationship with ADHD in a new way, thanks to the stuff that we gab on and on about on this very show, thanks to the guests that we bring on the show week after week, thanks to all of the resources we’re sharing in the ADHD community on Discord. Then you should head over to patreon.com/theADHDpodcast and learn more about supporting the show. For a few bucks a month, you get access to the super secret channels in our community, you get access to the members only episode of this podcast, which now includes wit and banter. Yeah, that’s right-

Nikki Kinzer: We hope.

Pete Wright: It is more aligned with the livestream than ever before. And I promise it will not include 20 minutes of extra silence at the end of each episode. Now with less silence is what we call that.

Nikki Kinzer: That’s right. It’s new and improve with less silence.

Pete Wright: That’s right. Visit patreon.com/theADHDpodcast to learn more. And welcome Patty and Cindy and Arno and Michael and [Aruna 00:04:31] and Angela, all new members in the last couple of weeks. And thanks to Matt for upgrading your pledge this month. We are so grateful for each and every one of you and your contributions to this community. All right, Nikki-

Nikki Kinzer: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Pete Wright: What is between all and nothing? I sounded-

Nikki Kinzer: Do you think there is?

Pete Wright: Maybe like a superhero just then.

Nikki Kinzer: Is there anything? What do you think?

Pete Wright: There’s nothing. It’s just fog.

Nikki Kinzer: There’s nothing. It’s all or nothing.

Pete Wright: It’s nothing.

Nikki Kinzer: Right?

Pete Wright: It’s all and then it’s nothing.

Nikki Kinzer: Right.

Pete Wright: It should just be all and nothing.

Nikki Kinzer: And nothing. Well, and you know what? I purposely wrote in the title what’s in between all and nothing-

Pete Wright: Yes.

Nikki Kinzer: Not having it be all or nothing-

Pete Wright: Or nothing.

Nikki Kinzer: Because you put the, or it’s like it is one or the other-

Pete Wright: And it’s a whole different thing. Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: Yes, exactly, exactly.

Pete Wright: No, I get that.

Nikki Kinzer: So it’s also otherwise known as black and white thinking-

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nikki Kinzer: And it’s very, very, very common with ADHD clients and people, whether your client or not, and have ADHD. Black and white thinking is probably been in your thought process. And basically-

Pete Wright: The problem is you may not even know it.

Nikki Kinzer: Well, that’s the thing, is most of the time, I don’t think people do. In fact, when I pointed out to clients, they’re often surprised. They’re like, "Oh, you’re right. I did say that." Or, "I guess that’s true." So it is, it’s something that you’re not really fully aware of. And what it means is that it’s this way or it’s not. And if it’s not this way, then it’s not going to happen. If I don’t have this thing, then this thing can’t happen. And there’s just no in between. So some of the all or nothing language that you want to pay attention to-

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nikki Kinzer: And this is where you can kind of start to see the red flags a little bit, is when you say, always, when you say, never. It’s all a mess in order for me, blank, blank, blank. I can’t do blank, blank, blank.

Pete Wright: Or I have to have. Or I have to-

Nikki Kinzer: I have to have.

Pete Wright: Be. Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: Right. So what do you see, Pete, when I say those words, what does it remind you of?

Pete Wright: What does it remind me of?

Nikki Kinzer: Yeah.

Pete Wright: You mean in terms of my own behavior?

Nikki Kinzer: Well, I’m just curious if you see the connection here of when I say, I always, I never.

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: So I’m thinking all or nothing thinking, but what else is happening?

Pete Wright: Well, what else is happening? The way it hits me first is very much around … because I’m such a like tactile person, like I-

Nikki Kinzer: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Pete Wright: Touch everything in the universe and that’s how I kind of relate to stuff. So like, my keyboard has to be just the right keyboard or I have to-

Nikki Kinzer: Right.

Pete Wright: Be in just the right place with sensory experience with light and sound. So what I see with all of this is just like, it is a fight for me to say, I can’t do something, some work or some project, without being certain space, without being in a certain environment, without having the tools that I need. I’m trying to break that because frankly, I need to be more productively fluid. I need to be able to-

Nikki Kinzer: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Pete Wright: Get stuff done when I can’t have the resources or the low cal where I am, but I get this like nervousness in my stomach when I am-

Nikki Kinzer: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Pete Wright: Faced with this idea of doing something without being in just the right place at just the right time. Does that make sense? And does-

Nikki Kinzer: It does make sense.

Pete Wright: That answer the question you were asking?

Nikki Kinzer: Well, yes, because it sounds very limiting.

Pete Wright: Yes. Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: So where I’m going with this is that there is a huge connection between all or nothing. And the connection to what our limiting beliefs are.

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nikki Kinzer: Because it’s almost the same thing you’re saying, I can’t do this unless this is all done, or this is this way. Which is limiting you from going forward. Right?

Pete Wright: Right, right.

Nikki Kinzer: So there’s this huge connection here. And so I think that we have to … if we’re identifying where we have limiting beliefs, we also have to identify where we’re doing the all or nothing thinking.

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nikki Kinzer: Because they’re almost like married.

Pete Wright: Yeah. Right.

Nikki Kinzer: Right?

Pete Wright: Right.

Nikki Kinzer: And really what’s happening and everything that you’ve said and what I’m saying here is that it does, it stops us from moving towards our goals. And it also makes us feel really bad-

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nikki Kinzer: Because when we don’t do something, then we get into this procrastination mode and avoidance comes into play-

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nikki Kinzer: And then, we get into what you call this adrenaline procrastination spike.

Pete Wright: Oh, yeah because-

Nikki Kinzer: What does that mean?

Pete Wright: If I get into this position where I can’t do something without just the right resources and just the right-

Nikki Kinzer: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Pete Wright: Latte and just the right, all the stuff. Then I’m putting off the thing that I have to do until the very last minute. And then the only way I can do the thing that I need to do is to rely on the reserves of hormones, of adrenaline, of fear, of anxiety to push me through. Not doing my best work, I’ve acknowledged that, what I used to say was I do my best work right before something is due. That’s not true.

Nikki Kinzer: Right.

Pete Wright: I do better work when I’m thoughtful and measured. But often I can’t do the work without the spike, right?

Nikki Kinzer: Yes.

Pete Wright: Listen to me use that limited behavior-

Nikki Kinzer: Absolutely.

Pete Wright: That was my belief system. I can’t do this unless I have this reserve of adrenaline to get me to the other side of it-

Nikki Kinzer: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Pete Wright: And to get it done. And that is, generally speaking, not true.

Nikki Kinzer: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Pete Wright: I can do work before the night before it’s due. And I can do quality work, most often better work than if I rely on this falsehood that I can only do great work before it’s due.

Nikki Kinzer: And I’m going to take it even a step further, there is a middle between that too. Because like, for example, when I work with college students and we’re talking about an exam or a final paper, whatever this event is. If we’re planning it out and we’re saying, "Okay, here’s your final." And we want to start studying for it a week before, instead of a day before. So we know that this adrenaline procrastination’s going to happen. So we can go ahead and plan that you’re going to have more studying time the day before, a couple of days before.

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nikki Kinzer: But what we want to do is start it earlier so that you can start making some progress and start feeling better about it. And so by the time you get closer to the exam, yeah, you’re going to put more hours in, but you’re going to feel much better about it.

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nikki Kinzer: Because you’re going to be more confident about what you’ve already studied and what you’ve already practiced or put into place or whatever. So there’s even a middle ground to that. So that’s why we always have to open up our options, what are we looking for? What do we need to do to get to the ultimate goal that we want to get to?

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nikki Kinzer: And so what I want to do today is really talk about this gray area and what is in between all or nothing. And I have some, I think, examples, real examples that I’m hoping will help our listeners really understand this. I know that-

Pete Wright: Yes.

Nikki Kinzer: They already understand it because they live it every day.

Pete Wright: Because they live it-

Nikki Kinzer: Yes.

Pete Wright: But it’s important to put words to it. It’s important to be able to describe it. I can tell you for years, I wasn’t able to describe the experience of the adrenal procrastination spike.

Nikki Kinzer: Exactly.

Pete Wright: And until I figured that out, it was way through college and the first 15 years of my adult career life that I was-

Nikki Kinzer: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Pete Wright: Able to say out loud, "Oh, this is who I’ve been living as for all these years. This is why I’ve struggled. And this is why I’m not healthy." Right?

Nikki Kinzer: Yes, yes.

Pete Wright: Because when you rely on those giant swings, that’s not a-

Nikki Kinzer: Burnout.

Pete Wright: Healthy way for your body to exist.

Nikki Kinzer: Yeah, it’s not. It’s not. Yeah. Okay. So I talked about options, briefly brought that up and that’s really what we want to be looking for. But before we get into options, I want us to identify when this kind of thinking is happening. Because what we said before, many times, we don’t know it’s happening until it’s brought to our attention. And it’s usually because of some kind of big event. It’s not-

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nikki Kinzer: The little things that we are thinking all or nothing, it’s those big things that we’re missing. Okay, so I want to go through an exercise with you, so you can start to kind of think about how to look for these signs and really what’s next after we-

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nikki Kinzer: Identify them. So the first thing that I want people to think about is identify a task that you’re avoiding. So, what is that? And why am I bringing avoiding tasks up is because those are usually the ones that are all or nothing.

Pete Wright: Sure.

Nikki Kinzer: So we want to be thinking about why we’re avoiding the task. And I want you to also be thinking about what you’re saying to yourself about this task. Because that’s the limiting beliefs that are probably popping up.

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nikki Kinzer: So we want to notice that language, it’s really important to notice the language and it’s also really important to understand the emotions that are involved. Because almost every … I wouldn’t even say almost, I would say 99.9% of each avoided task has some kind of emotion attached to it.

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nikki Kinzer: So we can’t ignore them, we have to figure out what that is. But once we identify this, now what do we do? And that’s the part, where’s the and? Where’s the in between? And this is the goal, this is the golden nugget that I want people to take away from today.

Pete Wright: I’m preparing for the nugget.

Nikki Kinzer: Yes. Is when you’ve identified these things, you know why, you know what you’re saying about it, you know the emotions. Then we have to step back and ask ourselves what options do I have in this situation? Followed up with, what if I? Okay?

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nikki Kinzer: So it’s really important for us to see that there are options. Even if we don’t believe it, there are options.

Pete Wright: Right.

Nikki Kinzer: And then what if you did those options?

Pete Wright: Well, yeah, we don’t believe it or we don’t like it.

Nikki Kinzer: Or we don’t like it.

Pete Wright: And I have a real sense of what happens when I’m given an option to something that I’m terrified of doing, or I’m not doing well, or I have that limiting belief. And you give me a, what if. My initial reaction is going to be bad.

Nikki Kinzer: Yes, yes.

Pete Wright: Yeah, I’m not going to believe it because I’ve lived so long in the limited belief.

Nikki Kinzer: Right, right. However, if you’re listening to this podcast, you want to grow from this. You want to grow from the limiting belief, that’s why you’re looking for this kind of information.

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nikki Kinzer: So we also want to open the door to a growth mindset, away from a fixed mindset. Because the fixed mindset is telling you that this is just the way it’s going to be.

Pete Wright: Right.

Nikki Kinzer: The growth mindset is going to open up the opportunity. So if you don’t know about growth mindset and fixed mindset, check them out. We did a-

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nikki Kinzer: Show on it, we’ll put it in the notes. Now this is where I want to give you specific examples. Because I think it’s one thing to say, "Yeah, look at the options and what if?" But I want to give you specific examples so you can see how this can work.

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nikki Kinzer: So this is sort of the situation. I don’t have time to clean the house right now, so I won’t do any of it. I need at least a whole afternoon.

Pete Wright: Okay.

Nikki Kinzer: Pretty common. I mean, I’ve said it. Like I can’t clean the house in just an hour or I don’t want to break it up or whatever. So, what I-

Pete Wright: Well, and that first part might actually be true. I can’t clean the whole house in an hour.

Nikki Kinzer: Right.

Pete Wright: Okay.

Nikki Kinzer: Well, yeah, exactly.

Pete Wright: But the living belief part is hanging the entire future of a clean house on that line.

Nikki Kinzer: Yes.

Pete Wright: On that thing that’s probably true.

Nikki Kinzer: Yes. And then going back to what we said before, if we’re not doing any of it, then we go into this shame spiral and feel bad.

Pete Wright: Yeah, yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: So the options that I want us to look at is what if I only tackled one room today? What if I set a timer for 20 minutes and did as much as I could? What if I just straightened up a little bit, tidied up the piles, you don’t have to make decisions, you don’t even have to like, look in the pile. Just tidy them up. I mean, it’s amazing how much nicer something can look when you just tidy it up. Like you haven’t done anything.

Pete Wright: Here’s a big secret for me. This is what me happy and make a big difference in the cleanliness of my house. If I just start walking at my front door and wander in a circle, because the way our house is, it’s like a big circle-

Nikki Kinzer: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Pete Wright: And then in the middle are stairs that take you to the upstairs. If I just walk in the circle through the living room, in the kitchen and in the dining room and then in the back hallway, in my office and back to the front door. If I do that three or four times, picking up one thing that doesn’t belong in one room and put it in the room where it belongs, the house is tidy in no time. All you have to do is not stop moving for five minutes. You just pick this thing up-

Nikki Kinzer: Right.

Pete Wright: And take it here. You don’t even have to be all that organized about it, just move in a circle through your house, put one thing away at a time. It will tidy itself right up.

Nikki Kinzer: Absolutely.

Pete Wright: You don’t even-

Nikki Kinzer: Absolutely.

Pete Wright: Have to think about it. Put on a-

Nikki Kinzer: Nope.

Pete Wright: Podcast and start walking in circles.

Nikki Kinzer: That’s right. Walk in circles or squares or a rectangles, however your place of your home … your space of home, whatever I’m trying to say.

Pete Wright: Right.

Nikki Kinzer: The shape of it. Yeah. Well, and this is the other thing I want people to think of is we go back to the emotion piece of it. So what if, instead of feeling shame and regret and embarrassment, or any of those feelings that you may have felt. What if you actually feel really good because you got something done? What if you were able to tidy up an area and you looked at it with being proud of yourself. Like, "Hey, I accomplished something." So it’s a different shift of how you’re looking at things. And I also-

Pete Wright: Because of how many of us have looked at a thing that we’ve just accomplished and said, "Well, that was a one time experience." No way that’ll-

Nikki Kinzer: Exactly.

Pete Wright: Ever happen again. That’s also a living belief.

Nikki Kinzer: Yes, oh my gosh-

Pete Wright: That’s like such a backhanded-

Nikki Kinzer: Totally.

Pete Wright: Compliment.

Nikki Kinzer: Oh my gosh. That’s so, so, so true.

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: And then the last thing I want to say about this example, and then I have another one for you-

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nikki Kinzer: Is, what if good enough was really good enough?

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: So many of my clients are reaching for perfection, which doesn’t exist. There is no perfection. And so if you think that’s what you’re waiting for, you’re going to be waiting for a long, long time. So what is that-

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: Good enough for you? And how do you get to that? So those are just some questions, options that you can start thinking about with just cleaning the house.

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nikki Kinzer: Now the next example is a little more gray because the all or nothing thinking is coming from fear. So I’m afraid to look at my email because I’m afraid of what’s going to be there. I can’t call this person because I’m sure they think blank of me.

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: So anxiety is leading you to the worst case scenario and we’re experts at this. We look at the worst case scenario. And so yes, there’s this like story that we’re building up in our mind. Right?

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nikki Kinzer: And we’re sure of it, like, we’re sure that this is going to be the way it is-

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: And so we’re going to avoid it at all costs. What do you think? That relates?

Pete Wright: Of course, of course-

Nikki Kinzer: You relate to that?

Pete Wright: Of course. Yeah. I’m like in my head going down a checklist of the stuff that I’m not going to do because I already know how this is going to end.

Nikki Kinzer: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And it’s always a pleasant surprise when I will follow up with clients and I’ll ask, "So how did it go?" And I would say the majority of the time, it’s never as bad as they thought it was going to be.

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nikki Kinzer: I want us to look at like options here too. How do we deal with this kind of fear? Because it is stopping us from going forward, we’re not doing anything in the middle, we’re just stopping.

Pete Wright: Right.

Nikki Kinzer: So one of the things that I would say as an option is talk to someone about how you’re feeling. ADHDers are verbal processors and so a lot of the work that I do with clients is they’re talking through these fears, they’re talking through-

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nikki Kinzer: "Well, I can’t check the email." Well, what would be in the email that would be so bad. And now you have to kind of explain that to someone. And so it’s interesting to see them process and organize their thoughts because now they’re talking about them. So it’s just one more way of like really processing everything. So talk to someone about it and get grounded with what you’re thinking.

Pete Wright: I’m constantly surprised at how dumb my inner thoughts are when I say them out loud.

Nikki Kinzer: Right, yeah, yeah.

Pete Wright: It’s the things that I … and this gets us back to something thing that we’ve talked about before, which is the storytelling. Losing side effect and truth when you stop talking out loud and you stop listening to your voice, as it comes through your mouth and into your ears, when you work through, as you’re talking about going through the story. What is the worst case scenario for this situation? When you stop talking about it, you get caught in the story that you’ve told yourself in your head.

Nikki Kinzer: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Pete Wright: When you tell that story out loud to somebody, you realize from a different … I really believe it, it comes from a different part of your brain.

Nikki Kinzer: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Pete Wright: You hear it differently and you realize what it sounds like. Which is, it’s not a rational response. This is-

Nikki Kinzer: Right.

Pete Wright: It’s never really is bad as you think it is. And in fact, for me, when I’m at my worst, it’s usually something like, "Oh, I’m worried the IRS is going to write me." Or something.

Nikki Kinzer: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Pete Wright: It’s going to be the worst case.

Nikki Kinzer: Oh, I’ve had that happen and you do-

Pete Wright: I know.

Nikki Kinzer: Get through it.

Pete Wright: You do get through it-

Nikki Kinzer: Yeah.

Pete Wright: You get through it. And if you don’t, if you ignore it, if you pretend-

Nikki Kinzer: Right.

Pete Wright: It’s not there, if you ostrich it and put your head in the sand, then it will get worse. It’s quite possibly-

Nikki Kinzer: Yes.

Pete Wright: You can make it worse by letting the story in your head define your behavior.

Nikki Kinzer: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, and it’s also interesting when you ask somebody, what is the worst case scenario?

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nikki Kinzer: And like you said, they talk it through and then they’re like, "Well." Yeah, that would not be ideal, but you also know you’re going to be okay.

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: Like you’re going to be okay. So whatever it is, you will be able to figure it out-

Pete Wright: Yep.

Nikki Kinzer: And do something with that. So I think it’s important to be talking about that. Like, what is it that you’re thinking that you’re so afraid of? Like, what is-

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: That worst case? And then I would ask that you look for, what kind of support do you need when you’re confronting whatever it is that you’re afraid of?

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nikki Kinzer: And so it could be having somebody with you, like, hey, I just need your presence while I make this phone call.

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: I do this with clients all the time. Where if they’re avoiding an email, I will have them do the email in our session. And they come back and they’re like, "Sent." And they feel better and it’s done. So, find that support, whether it’s your coach or a spouse or a partner, friend, coworker, whatever.

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nikki Kinzer: It can make a big difference. And then do it during a body double session. I mean, that’s one of the things that’s so great about study hall on Thursday afternoons is that if you’re avoiding something, you’ve got all of these people supporting you. And I bet you anything, if you put into the chat, "I’m going to make a phone call that I’ve been dreading to make." You’re going to have responses cheering you on-

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: For you to do that. So you get the support of the community, which I think is really important. But, I think in all of these examples and I hope it puts things more kind of in perspective for people. I just want you to walk away that there is a middle, there is something in the middle of all and nothing. And the goal is to figure out what that is for you, so that you can move forward. We don’t want to stay stuck. And that’s what this kind of pattern of thinking does for us. And we want to-

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: Avoid that.

Pete Wright: Absolutely. Don’t be stuck.

Nikki Kinzer: There you go.

Pete Wright: Don’t ostrich.

Nikki Kinzer: Don’t be stuck.

Pete Wright: Fact and truth.

Nikki Kinzer: There you go.

Pete Wright: Good stuff. This is good stuff. And definitely jump into the community, if you’re not in there already. Jump into the community and share something that you need accountability on. Share something that you need help on to actually solve the problem, share it with somebody this week and just see what happens. I have a feeling-

Nikki Kinzer: Absolutely.

Pete Wright: You might make some change, real short term, quick, high impact change. It’s worth it. Thank you everybody for downloading, listening to this show. Thank you for your time and your attention. Don’t forget, if you have something to contribute about the conversation, we’re heading over to the show talk channel in the Discord server and you can join us right there by becoming a supporting member at the deluxe level. Thank you to Text Expander, the whole Text Expander team for supporting the ADHD Podcast this week. On behalf of Nikki Kinzer, I’m Pete Wright, and we’ll see you right back here next week on Taking Control The ADHD Podcast.

Through Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast, Nikki Kinzer and Pete Wright strive to help listeners with support, life management strategies, and time and technology tips, dedicated to anyone looking to take control of their lives in the face ADHD.