Pete Wright:
Hello, everybody, and welcome to Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast on TruStory FM. I’m Pete Wright and I’m here with Nikki Kinzer.

Nikki Kinzer:
Hello everyone. Hello, Pete Wright.

Pete Wright:
Hello, Nikki Kinzer. It’s just you and me today. We’ve got some stuff to talk about that has come up. We have said it a million times, probably ourselves. You say fine so much you stop hearing yourself say it. And so this week we’re going to talk about what that little everyday mask is costing us and what shifts when we decide to let it slip.

Apparently I triggered my watch.

Nikki Kinzer:
Your phone or your watch is talking to you.

Pete Wright:
Yep, I did something. It’s very thoughtful.

Anyway, what shifts when we let it slip on purpose? Before we dig into that, head on over to our Patreon community. We’ve got to talk about Patreon because if you’re a regular listener, this is where the really good behind the scenes stuff happens. If you’re a member, you get early ad-free access to every episode. You get access to our secret members-only Discord channels. You get a secret members-only seat at the live stream recording session of the show where you can ask questions directly to us or our guests in the chat as we record.

And you get secret access to special events we throw in along the way. It’s a lot of secrets. So many secrets. But the best part about this community is the community itself. This is a group of very real people living with ADHD and exploring how they show up for each other in a way that is really, really special. If you have ever wanted to be more than just a listener, this is where it happens, and you just have to visit patreon.com/theadhdpodcast to learn more and join us. And if you’re not ready for that yet, that’s fine too.

You can find us at takecontroladhd.com, connect with us on our socials, join the Discord on the free set of channels there, or sign up for the weekly email. We would love to have you wherever you land.

How are you, Nikki?

Nikki Kinzer:
Fine. Doing fine.

Pete Wright:
Yeah, there it was. It’s written on the tin. You’re so fine. I’m fine. This is the smallest mask we wear, but it’s probably the one we wear most often. Where did this one come from for you? How did it bubble up? Because I came in and you had gone to town on the things you wanted to talk about in relationship to this mask.

Nikki Kinzer:
Well, it traces back to our earlier conversation this year with Dr. Sharon Saline. And we talked about masking as a relationship strategy, right? How we hide parts of ourselves to be accepted by specific people and specific relationships, whether that’s in the workplace or personal. So that’s sort of where it came from. And I think when we were talking to Sharon about it, it focused a lot on the relationship piece.

So this is just taking another angle of how else are we masking? And a lot of times it’s just somebody asks you how you’re doing and you immediately say, fine. I’m fine. I’m great. When really you’re not great. And not everything is fine.

Pete Wright:
Maybe you are, which would be awesome. I don’t remember the last time I said it that way. And we should say, as we said with Sharon, the big caveat is sometimes the mask is the right call. You’re in a workplace that doesn’t feel completely emotionally safe. You’re at a family gathering. You just have to get through. Did you see that episode of The Bear?

Anyway, so we’re not telling anyone here in this conversation to stop masking. What we’re saying is let’s be aware of the line between a mask you’re choosing to wear and one that is sort of choosing you.

Nikki Kinzer:
So I think it’s important that we talk about what makes fine different than maybe some of the other masking that we do. This isn’t protective masking in a hard moment. So it’s not that moment where I can’t let my boss know that I’m not understanding what they’re asking me to do. I want to hide in that moment. That’s not what fine is. It’s the everyday kind, that low grade version, the one that’s been on so long that you’ve lost the off switch, where it’s just so automatic.

So when the boss checks in on an ongoing project, you say it’s going fine. Whether it’s not or you don’t know. Maybe it’s not going well, or you don’t know because you’ve been avoiding it and you have to say something.

Pete Wright:
That’s the mask. You’re hiding something.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, you’re hiding. So that’s the fine that we’re talking about. And what Sharon was talking about is that disconnect, that the more you perform, the bigger the gap is between what you’re showing and what’s actually true. And that gap is where the exhaustion lives, because boy is it ever tiring. When it’s not fine, there’s a huge cost, more than just in that moment of trying to protect yourself by saying it’s fine.

So I think that’s important to think about. We’ll talk about the cost more in a moment, but that’s definitely one of the consequences. Everyone assumes you’re fine because you look fine. But inside, you’re feeling horrible.

And this is kind of where that imposter syndrome can also start to leak out a little bit. You don’t want them to see the real you. You don’t want them to see that you need help. And so again, you put that mask up when inside you’re terrified.

I always think it’s interesting because this has nothing to do with ADHD, but with my husband having MS, everybody will always say, oh, you look so good. You look fine. You look great. But that is so deceiving. It’s not always a good day. So I can imagine, I mean, you get this with ADHD too, where, oh, you must not have ADHD, Pete. You show up to the podcast every week on time. You always have.

Pete Wright:
Oh, let’s do my own. Oh my God. I know you’re just using me as an example, but I feel the emotional response well up just hearing those words. It makes me insane inside.

Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, you don’t. You don’t have it. I know, right? But that’s what’s happening.

Pete Wright:
This is the rubber band problem. You have these two points. First of all, going all the way back to the gap that we were talking about, you have a point and you’re holding that rubber band on the point. And there’s this other point that you’re trying to live in. And as the gap gets bigger, the pretend of your life gets bigger, the rubber band gets stretched and stretched and stretched, and eventually it gets super, super taut and it can’t stretch anymore. And it’s the same thing with this. Everyone assumes I’m fine because I look fine. The rubber band is still at this point doing what it needs to do. It’s serving its function. It is stretching when it needs to stretch. Eventually it can’t anymore. It either snaps or it exhausts itself and pulls back.

It’s just one thing after another that causes that gap to get bigger and tighter and the pressure just gets too great. And I want to throw in the home version too, because we’re talking so much about these sort of work masks, but the home version is really insidious. How was your day, to your partner, and to answer fine. You’re saying fine to the person who would actually want to know. They really care about you.

Nikki Kinzer:
It’s so funny because this just happened in our household not too long ago, where my husband asked me how my day was, and I was like, oh, it’s fine. It was good. And he’s like, oh, I know what fine means. Did it go okay?

But what’s so interesting is we also know that I’m an introvert, and I talk about this in the newsletter coming up next week. After a long day of talking to people and really listening to people, I can’t go straight from work to dinner and talk about my day. I can’t do that. It’s painful for me to do that. I need time to process. I need time to be by myself. I need quiet time. And he knows that, because he knows that when I’m ready to actually tell him about my day, I will tell him.

Pete Wright:
Oh, you’ll unload.

Nikki Kinzer:
But it’s not in that moment. It’s not right in that moment.

Pete Wright:
Well, and look at what it does. We train people how we want to be treated. And so I was thinking about it this morning as we were coming into the conversation, of probably the ongoing mistake that I have made with my own kids by saying fine in front of my kids, to my kids, teaching them that that’s the answer. And that’s not the lesson I want to teach.

There are other ways to express the complexity of human emotion, and also to indicate I don’t really want to get into it right now, without just saying this completely overloaded word, fine. Which has such an air of pretend to it. I almost instinctively don’t believe people when they say I’m fine anymore. I just don’t believe it. I don’t believe you, even if you’re fine. That word has too much baggage.

Nikki Kinzer:
I know, because it’s just so automatic. That’s so true.

And the thing about your kids, it’s really funny because I remember that you always get the same answer. How was your day? It was fine, or it was good, whatever. And I remember somebody, some parenting blog or something, saying you don’t ask your kid how their day was, because it will always be fine. Ask them what they had for lunch. Ask them who they sat with. Ask them questions that they actually have to answer that isn’t just the word fine.

And I think we can probably apply that in adult life as well, to not have it be such a general question. Maybe a little bit more specific too.

Pete Wright:
Yes, for sure. All right, I know we’re going to talk about some alternative ways to frame fine that might be a little bit more authentic, but do you want to talk about the cost of fine? It does not come for free.

Nikki Kinzer:
No, there’s a lot of energy that’s being used, and that is exhausting. It’s a heavy burden to bear all day long, to pretend that you’re fine, to try to stay calm. You’ve got to look busy, or you’ve got to do all the things. Especially when you’re planning, when we talk about our to-do list and that to-do list becomes so unrealistic because we want to look fine. We want to be able to do all the things, and that’s exhausting.

The loneliness of being around people who only know the performance, that is exhausting and a very lonely place to be, because you feel like you’re by yourself, that you don’t have any support. And you can’t just be yourself. It doesn’t feel safe enough to ask for help or to just tell someone what’s really going on. That venting can be a positive thing, just to get it out, because the more it stays in, the more it’s going to make you feel bad, and burnout eventually.

It delays anyone from reaching out to help you, because they don’t know to help you. They don’t know that you need help. And even you yourself may not even know that you need help or what kind of support to get or ask for. No one knows what’s going on, because it’s such an automatic response again. So things just stay the same and nothing changes.

Pete Wright:
I wanted to throw this back at you because we’re talking about some really sort of high-level experiences, broad experiences, but there is also this practical performance at 4 p.m. on a Tuesday. And because you work with so many people like me, like your clients, who exist in a state of constant fine, wink, you know what I’m really saying. I wonder if you could talk about what that experience is, working with someone who’s trying to overcome fine, and what it looks like when fine cracks, when you finally get to see through the fine.

Nikki Kinzer:
Right. So I think that this is where we talk about how to advocate for yourself. And also I think that there’s some awareness that has to happen to really understand where you are in these, what is the circumstance where you’re saying you’re fine.

So we’ve already mentioned that the reframe isn’t about ripping the mask off in front of everyone. That’s not what we’re saying. But it’s about choosing one small moment to not perform fine. And this is reading the room. So probably the safest place, well, maybe not, you’ve got to decide who the safest place is, whether that is at work, it could be a colleague, it could be a friend at work that isn’t in your department and has no ties to what you do. But it could be your spouse, it could be a best friend, it could be a neighbor. Somebody that you feel safe around.

And just kind of choosing a moment to not perform. Hey, no, this has been a difficult day. And I want to be clear about what I mean by safe. It means that you’re choosing someone who’s not going to judge you. You’re choosing someone that you have a good relationship with, that you trust. And that’s really the bottom line, what you’re looking for is, who can I trust? And just being honest. Actually today’s been a lot. And letting that pause for a moment without trying to reassure them that you’re okay.

Because I know I do that. I’ll be like, yeah, it’s been a rough day, but you know what, don’t worry. Everything’s going to be fine. Everything’s going to be fine.

Pete Wright:
Oh, that’s so true. I find I do that because I feel like I need to remind people that they’re still safe with me. And that’s what we’re doing when we say fine. Look, we can move past all of the uncertainty that you might have about what you and I are about to do, whether it’s have a lighthearted conversation or work on a project together. Because I’m safe, you’re safe, we’re all fine. You’re not going to see the uglier part of me that I’m feeling right now. I’m just going to stuff it down and stuff it down and stuff it down, and it’ll be fine.

Nikki Kinzer:
Right. Because you want to protect the other person. You don’t want to be a burden to them. And so immediately you start to reassure them. So letting that pause for a moment before you go straight to that.

I think also a good phrase would be, do you want the real answer or do you want the I’m fine answer? Because I can give you the fine answer and we’re good. But if you really want to know, then that kind of names the truth with a little bit of humor and makes it a little bit lighter. So in that sense, you really could tell them what’s going on and not feel like you have to apologize or reassure them, because you are making it a little bit lighter.

Pete Wright:
I think that’s always a, I think again, context is everything, and depending on your audience, that’s a really nice way to do it. I know I do it. But I also think there’s something like, if somebody takes you up on do you want the real answer, I think there are times where I just can’t produce one. I know I’m feeling a certain way that has me off on my heels, but I don’t know how to put it into words. And fine was always the thing that allowed me to kind of get through it.

And at this point, I just need to say, you know what? I’m fair. I don’t know what’s wrong. Something’s wrong. And it’s really been a day. But I’m here and I’m with you and I’m ready to do what we’re going to do. I’m ready to have this conversation. I’m ready to work on this project. But it’s been a day. It’s been a day. And I’m ready to rest. All of those things count.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, for sure. You don’t have to name it. You don’t have to explain it if you don’t want to.

I mean, in my own personal life, if I’m feeling anxiety, I’ll say it out loud and I’ll be like, I’m feeling really anxious. I have this pit in my stomach. I don’t know why, but it’s on today. I’ll communicate that. But that’s part of me being aware of it too.

And I think that we have to be aware of it. And that’s really the first step. You can’t lower a mask that you don’t know you’re wearing. And it starts with our body. And this is something that Sharon talked to us about too. She talks about the mask isn’t just a mental habit, it actually shows up physically. And that’s how I know personally if I’m feeling some anxiety. It could be tight shoulders. For me, it’s a pit in my stomach. The body often clocks the performance before the person consciously does.

So pay attention to how you’re feeling. You don’t have to explain it, like you said, but you can definitely say something’s off. I just don’t feel on today.

Pete Wright:
I love that, because that also, and I’m going to preempt one of our other suggestions, this allows you to live in the exact present. Sometimes asking ourselves to think about the past or the future is very challenging for people with working memory issues. But living in the now, we can learn to do that. We can learn to feel what our body feels like, what our shoulders feel like, what our back feels like, in order to keep moving forward with more awareness.

Nikki Kinzer:
Absolutely. And so it’s starting with the body, but then it’s also then noticing that I am saying fine a lot when I know I’m not fine. So this is kind of catching yourself in this pattern. And it’s about noticing the distance between what came out of your mouth and what’s actually true. I’m saying that to you when I know that that’s not exactly entirely true.

But it is mapping that pattern, not just the moment. So one fine doesn’t mean anything. If you say fine, it doesn’t mean anything. But if you look back at a week and notice that you’ve said fine to your partner, your team, your kid, your own journal, that’s not a mood, that’s a default setting. And that’s what we’re paying attention to. And that awareness really comes from zooming out, and not from judging any single time where you said it. Which makes a difference.

Pete Wright:
Well, and that’s the one that I think is so challenging for ADHD brains, because you’re asking me to think back to times that don’t mean anything anymore to me. And so this is where you might consider, hey, I need to talk to my partner, my spouse, someone close to me, and just say, I’m feeling really tense. How do I normally present? Do I say fine a lot? Do I seem like I’m being honest with you when I tell you how I’m doing? To ask for some support in helping to realize when you’re clenched, emotionally clenched.

Nikki Kinzer:
Absolutely. Well, and I think that we’ve got some reflection questions for you to think about when you are practicing this level of awareness. And I think it’s important to say this, because you’re not going to remember. So these reflection questions can also be held for the future of, is this a time that I’m feeling like I need to say fine, and do I need it or not?

Is the person I’m talking to right now somebody that is safe, that I can be honest with? And what’s different about that relationship with another person? Why can I be honest with friend A, but not necessarily friend B? That’s the awareness we’re talking about, without having to actually think of a specific time.

And in the future, if you are going to say fine and wear that mask, what’s happening to your body? Let’s pay attention to that. Where do you feel the tightness, or the faster heartbeat, whatever it might be?

And I think this last question is really interesting. If I’m being honest, who am I performing fine for right now? Who is that right now that I feel like I need to hide from? And maybe it’s myself.

Pete Wright:
Because how often is it you? How often is it, I’m just hiding from myself, because if I tell the truth about how I’m feeling right now, I have to admit I hate what I’m doing, or I hate my job, or I’m just pretending in this relationship and I don’t have what it takes to be honest right now, so I’m fine.

Nikki Kinzer:
Right. Yeah, absolutely.

Pete Wright:
And everybody knows the only time you should really say fine is when referring to a fine suit or a fine automobile.

Nikki Kinzer:
A fine wine.

Pete Wright:
Maybe a fine wine.

Nikki Kinzer:
A fine wine is what came to my mind.

Pete Wright:
So we are not fine. The wine is fine. Recontextualize. So there you go. And we’ve got our companion piece.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yes, we do. Where Am I Wearing Fine? It’s a tool for noticing where fine shows up for you. And it gives you a little bit of an exercise, an action step to take. Go check it out in our notes.

Pete Wright:
Do it. Check it out.

Nikki Kinzer:
Check it out. Download it.

Pete Wright:
That’s where they live. In the notes. You can get them in the notes.

We would love you to do that, and let us know. We’re headed over into Discord and we want to hear where you’re fine. Where are you typically the most fine? At home, at work? Alone in the car, talking about how fine you are, staring at yourself in a mirror, like Stuart Smalley, saying, I’m fine, I’m fine.

Nikki Kinzer:
Everything’s fine.

Pete Wright:
I’m fine and everybody likes me. That takes me back.

We would love to hear more from you. Mostly we just appreciate you downloading and listening to this show. Thank you for your time and your attention. Of course, if you have something to contribute to the conversation, we are heading over to the Show Talk channel in our Discord server, and you can join us right there by becoming a supporting member at the deluxe level or better.

On behalf of Nikki Kinzer, I’m Pete Wright, and we will see you right back here next week on Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast.