My So Called Life with Sloan Just

Mandy Kaplan:
Hello everybody and welcome to Make Me a Nerd. I’m Mandy Kaplan, a mainstream mom whose mission it is to explore the world of nerd culture that I’ve been missing out on and afraid of my whole life. My whole so-called life.

As I’m on this journey, I’m learning it’s not just about sci-fi and fantasy, which I’m really exploring and deep diving into. But when I talk to my nerd friends, what sets them apart is their level of nerdery for a thing they love. And if that thing is a mainstream teen drama like My So-Called Life, they have watched it multiple times. They have really just flipped for it. Maybe they’re going to conventions. I don’t know. I’m gonna find out. But this is the kind of love for things that I don’t have. I’m too shallow. So I have brought back the performer extraordinaire Sloan, just to nerd out about My So-Called Life.

Sloan Just:
Hi nerds and nerds in training. Thanks for having me, Mandy. I love the way you explain your mission, but I also think part of the cult thing is sometimes things like this show became cult things because they kind of died too soon. So even though it was a mainstream show, it didn’t have a great first time around. And I think when things gain momentum later is really interesting.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah, and there’s something almost like rooting for the underdog. I heard there’s basketball going on, and my best friend Meg was telling me about some comeback —

Sloan Just:
Oh. Oh, that’s changed, yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
— the Knicks made some comeback. We would all root for an underdog. And when a series gets canceled unceremoniously or doesn’t gain the audience it deserves, I think that’s part of the love and the nerd mentality: let’s tout it and love it and try to revive it. I mean, obviously everything’s getting revived. I’m a little sick of it, but —

Sloan Just:
Yeah. But at least give it its due, right? And celebrate it. And I think because this show develops so many stars, it sells itself in that way, even if it’s a shallow claim. If you want to see the beginnings of some of these people that you love and are now Oscar winners and Emmy winners, they started as kids on the show.

Mandy Kaplan:
Or cult leaders who have an island and potentially abuse people.

Sloan Just:
Yeah, yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
Whatever you’re into. Before we dive into My So-Called Life, I’m gonna do a little pop culture update on The Godfather, since that episode released a few weeks ago.

Sloan Just:
Oh, I haven’t seen it yet.

Mandy Kaplan:
I am assuming you are a fan of The Godfather.

Sloan Just:
Could we cite one and two? Three never happened.

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay, fair enough. I watched one and two, and I was saying, oh, the cultural reach of The Godfather is so huge — Zootopia is the first scene. But I was watching one of my personal mainstream favorites, Hot in Cleveland, and they did a whole Godfather episode where Betty White is a town councilman and somebody brings her a tray of cannolis, and then there’s a water gun and she’s like, take —

Sloan Just:
Oh, take the gun, leave the cannolis.

Mandy Kaplan:
You know, take the cannolis, leave the gun.

Sloan Just:
Yeah. Leave the gun, take the cannolis.

Mandy Kaplan:
And I couldn’t believe I was watching Betty White, my beloved Betty White, be the godfather. So I just wanted to mention how far-reaching The Godfather was.

Sloan Just:
Oh, now that you actually know those references, you’ll hear like one a day. It’s insane. I mean, You’ve Got Mail, it’s like a whole subplot in that movie.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, now I need to rewatch it. I have no memory of a Godfather connection.

Sloan Just:
When they’re going back and forth, he keeps using quotes and she’s like, what are you talking about? And then he explains where all the quotes from The Godfather come from. It’s in everything. Even a Nora Ephron rom-com.

Mandy Kaplan:
Well, yeah, but I’m catching up to all of this, right? And here I am, an old lady —

Sloan Just:
It’s fantastic, isn’t it? Okay. Well, I think that’s a good one.

Mandy Kaplan:
Now I get it. Now I understand what people are referring to. Or “you shall not pass” from Lord of the Rings. I get these references now.

Sloan Just:
Well, that’s important. It’s kind of nice in society. I don’t get new references, I’ll tell you that much. The things my daughter says — I’ll try to use it in a sentence and it’s just a disaster.

Mandy Kaplan:
No, it’s low-key. Don’t try.

Sloan Just:
Yeah, it’s shameful every time.

Mandy Kaplan:
Low-key, don’t try.

Sloan Just:
So as long as we can get knowledge about things that happened decades before our adulthood, at least we’re doing something.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yes, I’m all grown up.

Sloan Just:
We’re comfortable with that.

Mandy Kaplan:
Right, so everybody go listen to that Godfather episode with Movie Friend podcast’s Seth Vargas.

Sloan Just:
Okay, but never watch Godfather three.

Mandy Kaplan:
He’s great.

Sloan Just:
It’ll ruin it.

Mandy Kaplan:
So, here’s my Jiminy Glick. Back to My So-Called Life. What do you love about this show?

Sloan Just:
That’s a really good Jiminy Glick. Good for you. What I love about this show is I believe it’s a really honest depiction of what it’s like to be a teenager, especially back then, in the mid-90s.

I think it’s a beautiful ensemble. I feel like this is the kind of show where no matter what characters are having a scene together, I’m interested, and they do an amazing job. You’ll see, if you wind up watching the whole season, they really bump up against each other in really unexpected ways. You’ll see Jordan has a great scene with Patty that you wouldn’t expect, and you’re like, oh my God. They make me care about everybody. I think it’s really artful.

I think the actors they choose are amazing. There are two Steppenwolf actors in this company. Tom Irwin, who plays Graham the dad, was an early Steppenwolf actor. And Jeff Perry, who plays Mr. Katimski, the English teacher, was a founder of Steppenwolf — in my high school cafeteria — with Gary Sinise and Terry Kinney.

Mandy Kaplan:
Wow.

Sloan Just:
They have heavy-hitting actors in this everywhere you look. So I love that. I love the relationships. I didn’t really pick any of these episodes, but they do take some big fantasy swings. Sometimes there’s a little bit of a supernatural element here and there. It’s just kind of earnest, I guess. I love the earnestness of it.

Mandy Kaplan:
Well, it is akin to 90210. It’s not so far off, but it is more stylish and theatrical and higher art than that.

Sloan Just:
Yeah, I think it was kind of a response to 90210 and that kind of teen show, in that these people live outside Pittsburgh. It’s not glamorous. All teenagers are gonna have some of the same issues, but these guys — as much as I love my 90210 — I find much more relatable. And I think the adult stories in this series are compelling and true. Now that I’m on the other side and I’m raising teenagers, the little things they say are so true. Like, “I’m not gonna panic just because she seems happy.” Or things that you share with your spouse about your kids, where you’re just constantly on eggshells and trying not to mess up.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh no, I’m a perfect parent and we have a perfect child, so I can’t relate.

Sloan Just:
Sorry, well, you might not have related to that aspect then. I guess I’m sorry.

Mandy Kaplan:
Can’t relate. So how old were you when you watched this?

Sloan Just:
I was old. I wasn’t a teenager anymore, because it came out in ’94. I remember very specifically being at my grandparents’ house for Yom Kippur or something. My cousin, who was a teenager at the time — in ’94 I was 20. I know you can’t tell. Good, really good plastic surgery. She was freaking out during dinner because it was gonna be on TV and she wanted to watch it. So I went in the other room and watched a little of it with her, and I was like, oh, this is good.

But then MTV started showing a marathon of it on Saturday. And that same friend of mine, Guy Atkins, who introduced me to Veronica Mars — he was also a big My So-Called Life fan. So when we met, we started geeking out about that together too. So I found it shortly after. I didn’t watch it in its first airing. It was also opposite Friends on Thursday nights, and that’s a lot of the reason nobody really found it. It was a tough sell.

Mandy Kaplan:
Right. It was created by Winnie Holzman, which I didn’t realize.

Sloan Just:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
It’s unbelievable. She’s behind Wicked, for those of us who are musical theater nerds. And then also Marshall Herskovitz is in the writing room, Ed Zwick. So it’s the pedigree of these people. It’s not just a trashy teen drama. It’s taking the best minds and their version of a teen drama.

Sloan Just:
I agree. And this is after thirtysomething that they all worked on, which I think was really revolutionary. So they were kind of recreating that for the teens.

Mandy Kaplan:
I’ve never seen thirtysomething, but I can feel the connection there.

Sloan Just:
Even the composer’s the same, and a lot of the writers. They have a flavor that I really like. And I feel like they are kind of an influence — I don’t know for sure, because I don’t know him — but on Dan Fogelman, who created This Is Us. Like a family show that has surprises and different character arcs. I think they kind of made that happen the first time, in my humble opinion, as Angela would say.

Mandy Kaplan:
In the pilot, Angela Chase, played by Claire Danes, begins a friendship with Rayanne Graff and Rickie Vasquez. At home, there is tension between her and her mother. This quote — I did a lot of pulling quotes because the writing is so sharp: “Lately, I can’t even look at my mother without wanting to stab her repeatedly.”

Sloan Just:
Yeah, that line is classic. And sometimes, bless her, I sometimes feel that way when I’m with my mom still. That’s just mothers and daughters.

Mandy Kaplan:
Absolutely. And it feels so justified. And then I wrote, wait, is this about menopause or teendom? I kept connecting those things. I don’t know where you are in your menopausal journey, but I get instant rage and I’m so irritable.

Sloan Just:
It’s a cruel irony that it happens when your kids are going through their teen years too, because everyone’s at their worst.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yes.

Sloan Just:
A hundred percent. I mean, I don’t know what you’re talking about. I haven’t been touched by that at all. Fresh daisy over here.

Mandy Kaplan:
Clearly. The parallels are staggering. Toddler, teen, menopause are all the shitty times of life, when your hormones are a mess.

Sloan Just:
Oh my God, everyone being nuts.

Mandy Kaplan:
So that’s where we are. The episode starts, and again, I’ve said to people, my TV’s so dark — and people are like, it’s not a dark show.

Sloan Just:
No, it should be a big deal.

Mandy Kaplan:
And I’m like, no, my TV physically looks dark. This one is bleached out. It’s very, very light. And my first thing I wrote — and don’t hate me, it’s not an insult — but it felt like the very special episode of Family Ties where Alex loses a friend.

Sloan Just:
The drunk driving one? Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
And it’s so heightened. It’s a theatrical presentation of a show.

Sloan Just:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
You don’t feel like you’re in school with them. You feel like you’re being presented this school.

Sloan Just:
That’s interesting. I think so. Knowing you and your analytical mind, I knew there would be things that would feel kind of very special from time to time, and it for sure does. The only thing I’ll say is that it is 1994. So I think they do a pretty decent job of making detailed observations about those moments, as opposed to a Family Ties — bless them — but just like, drunk driving is bad. I think there’s more nuance, but yes, there are things teenagers deal with no matter what era they’re in. There are for sure moments that are like, okay, lesson learned. But if you watch the whole season, the actors are so good and the writing is so good that the characters get so fleshed out that the moralizing gets a little bit less obvious.

Mandy Kaplan:
Great.

Sloan Just:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
And it’s so charming. When we meet Jordan Catalano — Jordan Catalano, you have to say the whole name.

Sloan Just:
I know — did you know that before you watched? Is that a reference you didn’t understand?

Mandy Kaplan:
No.

Sloan Just:
Everyone says Jordan Catalano in real life too. Ask people our age. Be like, do you remember My So-Called Life? I guarantee you 90% of the women, they’ll go, Jordan Catalano.

Mandy Kaplan:
That’s what Meg said. She’s gonna get a lot of mentions in this one because she loved this show.

Sloan Just:
Oh good. Good tape tonight.

Mandy Kaplan:
The reason she loves Jordan Catalano — the voiceover says, “I just like how he’s always leaning against stuff.”

Sloan Just:
And then what she says to Rayanne later: “He leans great.” Didn’t you have those boys you were like, I can’t tell you anything about this kid’s personality? You could just watch them literally lean.

Mandy Kaplan:
Of course. Yes, of course he is.

Sloan Just:
And I think he’s so dreamy in this.

Mandy Kaplan:
We’ll get into art versus the artist later. But when she is in high school and you feel her angst simmering, and she doesn’t know where to look and who to look at —

Sloan Just:
Yeah. Sure.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh God, it was like a gut punch. I remember that feeling so distinctly. Claire Danes is unmatched.

Sloan Just:
Oh, I know. Interestingly, they were about to cast Alicia Silverstone.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, very different show.

Sloan Just:
Isn’t that crazy? First of all, she’s too beautiful. I’m sorry. She was always conventionally gorgeous. They talked about Claire when she came in — obviously she blew them away at the audition — but also, at this time in her own physical development, she’s absolutely gorgeous and angelic, but she’s not fully formed.

Mandy Kaplan:
She’s too young, yeah.

Sloan Just:
So you’re not looking at a hot teenage girl. You’re like, there is awkwardness there, there is lanky gangliness there, and it just works so well. And the writer, Winnie Holzman, spent time teaching in high school for a few days, to get back to what you’re saying — in the halls, hearing the locks and the bells. I feel like that comes through.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yes. Yep.

Sloan Just:
Mm-hmm.

Mandy Kaplan:
You had mentioned, before we started recording, that you hoped Pete would do sound effects.

Sloan Just:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
So when you have a fun fact, like Alicia Silverstone —

Sloan Just:
Oh, okay. He’ll do that.

Mandy Kaplan:
You say, “Pete, fun fact.”

Sloan Just:
Okay. Pete, fun fact: a fun fact that Winnie Holzman taught in high school. I’m full of them, Pete.

Mandy Kaplan:
You didn’t cue him, so that’s on you, Sloan. That’s not Pete.

Sloan Just:
Well, that’s why you’re the professional.

Mandy Kaplan:
Pete is perfect.

Sloan Just:
That’s why you’re the professional. I’ll try.

Mandy Kaplan:
Hey, while we’re talking about Pete, let me just mention that Make Me a Nerd is a production of TruStory FM, engineering by the peerless aforementioned Pete Wright. My theme song is Wonderstruck by Jane and the Boy. And you can get me on Instagram at Mandy underscore Kaplan underscore Klavens, both with K’s. And please, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps more people find the podcast. I am so grateful when people leave a five-star review, like Annie Are You OK — I love that name: “I’m not a nerd, but this might change that. I laugh all the time and I’m learning about great movies, books, and more. Mandy is my nerd Sherpa.”

Sloan Just:
Wow, you’re a nerd file. A Nerpa.

Mandy Kaplan:
I mean, does it get better? I’m a Nerpa.

Sloan Just:
We’re the same person, I’m sorry. We kill ourselves.

Mandy Kaplan:
So that’s all my business. And now I’m gonna throw it to a commercial, and we’re gonna come back.

Sloan Just:
Brian Krakow.

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay, so Brian, the neighbor. Brian Krakow is Ducky, right?

Sloan Just:
Yeah. Even nerdier, because Ducky has a style. Brian’s a little sad. But we love Brian.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah. Part of me was like, uh oh, I’ve seen all of this before. But I got over that, because I have seen all of it before. I’ve seen John Hughes movies, I’ve seen 90210 to some degree.

Sloan Just:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
So this is all familiar territory, and what sets it apart is the writing.

Sloan Just:
Yes, I think you’re right.

Mandy Kaplan:
It’s just elevated.

Sloan Just:
And I think its goals are different. That’s kind of why I assigned — I don’t want to get ahead of it — but I assigned Life of Brian, because they do an episode with his point of view and his voiceover, and I think you learn a lot about him that you wouldn’t necessarily expect. I love a show that switches narrative. There’s one where the little sister, Danielle, does the voiceover toward the end of the season.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, see, that was a question. We could bounce around a bit, because I only watched the four episodes. And the opening credits make it seem like an ensemble. Claire Danes is not first — it’s alphabetical. They’re showing other people while the wrong name is under them.

Sloan Just:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
So when you picked Life of Brian next, I was like, oh, I get it — everybody gets their own episode that they narrate, from their point of view. But that’s not the case.

Sloan Just:
Right, not the case. Just Brian and Danielle, the little sister. But I love that Life of Brian episode, and I wanted to highlight it because I think it’s pretty brave. It’s in the first season — I don’t remember what episode it is, but it’s early on.

Mandy Kaplan:
There is only one season, I thought.

Sloan Just:
Yes. So what I mean is, they took some big swings. They weren’t like, okay, it’s Angela’s perspective all the way through. To suddenly switch to a secondary character and see Angela through his eyes — and just how they’re all struggling so much, and bonding in weird ways because everybody’s at a weird crossroads in their lives, the adults and the kids, and they’re seeking comfort wherever they can find it. That one, especially, Brian with Graham the dad — they need each other in a weird way for that episode.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, totally.

Sloan Just:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
Hang in that wallpaper.

Sloan Just:
Oh my God.

Mandy Kaplan:
But what I am shocked to hear about Alicia Silverstone — if Brian, her next-door neighbor, has always been in love with Angela, and Jordan Catalano wants to make out with her, if she is this knockout, that tells us something negative about Brian Krakow, right? Like, I’m just hot for my next-door neighbor because she’s so beautiful and has long blonde hair and curves.

Sloan Just:
I think it cheapens it a little. I think Brian saw Angela before anybody else did. And even if Jordan Catalano — even though he’s socially awkward in his own way and can’t communicate — he has an interest in her, that’s for sure, but he wouldn’t have noticed her. And Brian has always noticed her.

Mandy Kaplan:
Always. Ducky.

Sloan Just:
Yeah. I think part of it is not about what she looks like. They do that little Shakespeare moment where it is about her flaws — she’s not perfect, and that’s what makes her special.

Mandy Kaplan:
Right.

Sloan Just:
Which I don’t know if boys actually think. That’s a little bit of wishful thinking, but we’ll go with it.

Mandy Kaplan:
Probably.

Sloan Just:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
Well, back to the pilot, because this is where we meet these characters and we meet Rayanne.

Sloan Just:
Yeah. Love her.

Mandy Kaplan:
Love her. She’s so funny. They talk about what you would want somebody to say before you make love, and she says, “This won’t take long.” That’s what she wants to hear before. The character is so interesting, because I think they avoided stereotypes with her.

Sloan Just:
A hundred percent.

Mandy Kaplan:
She could just be the Regina George of the school, but she’s not.

Sloan Just:
She could be slutty and look a certain way. Instead she’s a quirky little Spitfire. She’s not what you expect.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yes, and I really liked that.

Sloan Just:
Me too.

Mandy Kaplan:
And we very briefly get Jordan Catalano, and we understand he’s always posing. I couldn’t tell if it was a wink-wink to Jake Ryan, or if it was supposed to be sincere that Jordan Catalano is always posing.

Sloan Just:
I think he’s just one of those beautiful guys, like Jake Ryan, who drifts through and stands and looks gorgeous. And partly, like you said, it’s a little theatrical, in that sometimes maybe it’s Angela’s view of him. Maybe he isn’t this person who just appears ethereally and stands and looks gorgeous, but that’s what she sees when she looks at him.

Mandy Kaplan:
That shit is deep. I didn’t go there.

Sloan Just:
Well, that’s what I’m here for — the deep shit.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah. There’s more deep shit in this pilot. It’s so rich. She describes the yearbook as a book showing how we all wish things happened, rather than reality.

Sloan Just:
Yes.

Mandy Kaplan:
And that describes social media, and that these kids are dealing with, like, my friends are doing this, my friends have this, and I see it on social media.

Sloan Just:
A hundred percent.

Mandy Kaplan:
Everybody’s so happy and I’m lonely and miserable. It makes me sick. At least back in our day, it was just the yearbook.

Sloan Just:
Oh yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
So you had a bad week when you got the yearbook, and you were like, I wasn’t at that event.

Sloan Just:
Yeah. And never looked at it again either. It’s not like we’re pulling those out. I’m a social media phobe generally, but I think that with my kids, I’m constantly saying, God, I wish you grew up when I did. If we had a bad day at school, we could just go home and we didn’t have to deal with anything. You weren’t getting bombarded with images and, God forbid, online bullying or any of that stuff. You could be a little hermit for a couple of days if you needed to repair yourself before you went back out into it.

I think the propaganda part is just as prevalent in adults, though. Don’t you have couples that you know who are like the birthday messages, and you’re like, oh, somebody’s cheating? That’s the immediate thing — like, you cannot be doing these proclamations about “this is my ride or die” and “my partner in crime,” and I don’t believe you. Keep it to yourself.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah, it’s so performative. You say it in your card to that person when you give them breakfast in bed.

Sloan Just:
Right, or at your wedding.

Mandy Kaplan:
But the Father’s Day, all of it is like, we get it.

Sloan Just:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
You’re better than everybody.

Sloan Just:
And I don’t trust it. When you see that, are you like, wow, they’re so in love? Or are you like, oh, whoops, shit’s crumbling? That’s where I go immediately.

Mandy Kaplan:
I love that you go there. I think I’m in between. This gets into a much deeper conversation about what we’re putting out in the world and how it makes other people feel. I worry about the kids. If I’m so happy that your kid won an award and got all A’s, that’s wonderful — and please, please put me on your mailing list as a friend, to send me updates on your family. I would thrill in that. But when you put it on social media, it just makes other people feel bad. My kid is not all A’s. My kid didn’t hit the milestone. And if the kids are seeing it now, it’s even worse. That’s what this show is about.

Sloan Just:
Yeah. I agree. Angela was very ahead of her time in many ways. Her search for brutal truth and her exploration of that is really fascinating. She’s reached that point in her life where the curtains are getting opened and she’s seeing behind things, and it’s very confusing. It happens in her house, it happens at school, it happens everywhere. At that age, it’s the first time you see that — people aren’t perfect and people make mistakes, and you’re making mistakes and you don’t even know it, you’re not doing it on purpose the way she is.

I think her relationship with Sharon, her former best friend, is one of my favorite relationships in the show, because we can all relate to that — where you grew apart and you’re trying to figure out how to still care for each other. And Sharon is fantastic.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah. I didn’t get a lot of Sharon in these episodes.

Sloan Just:
But to me, that’s a thing that doesn’t get explored that much. To your point, on a Family Ties that would be Jennifer trying to be with the cool kids and then realizing that — she would do that in one episode.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, she did.

Sloan Just:
I know. Remember when she was in that girl group?

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah, with Christina Applegate playing keyboards. Yeah, I remember.

Sloan Just:
Mr. Sandman. Yeah, they were a big hit doing Mr. Sandman. Bananas. But anyway, that would be solved in 22 minutes.

Mandy Kaplan:
It rocked.

Sloan Just:
But Angela and Sharon’s relationship takes a long time, and they do find a new understanding. It’s really beautiful to watch.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah. I was on board. I didn’t have time to watch the whole series, but I would have. I will. We did episode eleven, Life of Brian, which is the highest rated on IMDb, so you have good taste. Brian is caught between taking Angela or a new girl to a school dance; Rickie has a crush on a new student at Liberty High.

Sloan Just:
Can we talk about Rickie for a second?

Mandy Kaplan:
We sure can. Wilson Cruz.

Sloan Just:
1994.

Mandy Kaplan:
Now, I was confused as to whether he was fully out or not.

Sloan Just:
He’s the first instance of an openly out gay actor playing an out gay character on TV, period.

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay. Right, but Rickie was covering — Rickie’s close friends seemed to know, right?

Sloan Just:
Well, I guess we know he’s out. He was out on a need-to-know basis, I guess. And probably now that we have terms for other things, maybe he’s more fluid, maybe he’s all kinds of things. But I love in the pilot when Angela’s like, “So he’s bi, so what?” to her mother. And the mom’s like, “You hear the term she’s throwing around?” This was a huge deal at that time, to have a gay or gay-adjacent or gay-exploring teenager as a main character, not to mention a Hispanic one. And I love that they give Rickie such a full life in this. He’s not the gay best friend. That’s another reason I chose this episode — you see him having desire, and I don’t remember seeing that at that time.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yep. On this one I wrote, “Am I Team Sharon? Watching Sharon’s date watch Rickie.” Yes, I am Team Sharon. Because when they get to the dance and Sharon’s throwing herself at the guy, but he’s maybe looking —

Sloan Just:
Wait, Sharon? Sharon’s got her boyfriend there, Kyle Vinnovich.

Mandy Kaplan:
And Kyle’s making eye contact with Rickie.

Sloan Just:
Oh yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
Kyle’s exploring some feelings, which made me feel bad for Sharon.

Sloan Just:
Yeah, he’s kind of — I never noticed that. I think Sharon, bless her, is an overachiever, so she’s just concerned that the dance turn out exactly how she wants it. But she’s trying too. She’s the one trying to get Delia and Brian together. She’s a good person, Sharon. Imagine your two best friends are Rayanne and Sharon — couldn’t be more opposite.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yes. But Rayanne is not mean to Sharon, is she?

Sloan Just:
In the beginning, I don’t think they have much to do with each other. But what gets interesting is they do become allies again, because they’re forced into proximity and weird situations that have to do with Angela. They both love Angela, and they team up for her, and against her sometimes.

Mandy Kaplan:
Mm-hmm.

Sloan Just:
So they’re not mean. Angela and Sharon’s big reconciliation comes because Angela’s mom, Patty, is best friends with Sharon’s mom. And Sharon’s dad has a heart attack, and they send Sharon to stay with the Chases for the few days he’s in the hospital. So they’re literally forced into a room together — in Angela’s old childhood bedroom where they’d spent all their years playing together — to confront what was going on with them. It’s a beautiful way for them to really suss it out, and they come out better on the other side.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, good.

Sloan Just:
Yeah. So watch that one too.

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay. I need a little primer on Angela and Jordan, because this was ten episodes later and they’re making out at this point, right?

Sloan Just:
Right, it moved forward. Yes. He’s just been kind of a boneheaded boy about it. He does the thing that we’ve all experienced, where he expresses interest and then takes it away. And she’s scared to be honest with him. It’s just ten episodes of miscommunication with some physicality in there. He kisses her in the second episode, because he’s getting her an ID, and she comes to the car and he just does the clumsy boy thing of leaning over to make out. As much as she wants that, she’s like, that’s not — you know what I mean?

Mandy Kaplan:
Mm-hmm.

Sloan Just:
And that’s one thing about Angela: she does have self-respect.

Mandy Kaplan:
At times. But we also watch her change who she is to try to fit in at a party, or with him. She’s constantly sacrificing who she is. We’ve all done it.

Sloan Just:
Yeah, she has.

Mandy Kaplan:
I’m not really gonna speak my mind, I’m not gonna tell him what I really think, because he wants this kind of girl, so I’ll be this kind of girl.

Sloan Just:
And I’ll pretend to be his friend if that’s what he wants, because eventually he’ll look at me and realize he’s in love with me. Every tactic in the book. But the first time he kisses her, she says something like, “I was in the middle of a sentence.” She’s at least there, and then questioning, like, that’s not how I see this going. There’s an episode where she goes to his band practice and he’s singing a song about “I call her Red,” and it’s all about red, red — and then they realize it’s about his car. There’s like fifteen starts, so they’re connecting, but nothing’s been said and nothing’s secure.

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay. Well, let’s talk about the thing that shall not be named, but we’re gonna name it — because Jared Leto is very problematic.

Sloan Just:
Sure.

Mandy Kaplan:
And I’m wondering how it affects you, because he was not problematic back then. The problematic part is that he was 20 and she was 14 when they filmed.

Sloan Just:
Yeah, I don’t know. I always considered 20-year-olds when I was 14.

Mandy Kaplan:
That’s gross.

Sloan Just:
And not getting paid for it. I was just doing it on a volunteer basis. It’s a little weird, but I’m the wrong one to ask, because I have very broad boundaries when it comes to that stuff. And I do believe they were very protected on that set. I’ve never heard anything to the contrary.

Mandy Kaplan:
No, she said she just felt weird. And he felt weird. He’s like, this is a child, I’m 20.

Sloan Just:
Yeah. They took a big risk hiring someone as young as her for that role. They just did.

Mandy Kaplan:
Absolutely. I want to talk more Jared Leto when we come back.

Sloan Just:
Okay, always time for more.

Mandy Kaplan:
In more recent years, he has been accused of very inappropriate sexual behavior. He allegedly has a cult on an island, and he’s just reviled in Hollywood. And I wonder — so I’m watching Jordan Catalano, and I have no sympathy.

Sloan Just:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
I can’t see him as a confused teenager. I’m like, what a depressive dick. What is his problem?

Sloan Just:
I knew you would hate him.

Mandy Kaplan:
I want to reach through and smack him around. He’s good looking, sure. But when he ignores her at the pool — he’s playing pool and he just ignores her — he’s awful, awful, awful, awful. Am I tainted, or do you —

Sloan Just:
No, I think you would have hated Jordan no matter what, because I think you always had a good head on your shoulders. I don’t think you were ever into the fixer-uppers like a lot of us were. The boyfriends I knew of yours, at least when we got to be young adults, were nice to you, no?

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, I beg to differ, Sloan.

Sloan Just:
No? Maybe you just had a nice little facade going that I bought into. All right, well, more after class. See me after class.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.

Sloan Just:
I can separate, for me personally — I knew Jordan Catalano before I knew Jared Leto in any way. So this character is in amber for me. And I did go for that type, the type that gives you just enough to get your hopes up and then snatches it away. I was a big fan of that chase factor. So to me, he does some things that can really piss you off, but I understand that. My perspective is, it’s just a very truthful depiction of a dumbass teenage boy.

Mandy Kaplan:
I agree, but I just couldn’t get past it.

Sloan Just:
Yeah. If you’re introduced to the actor before the character, of course. I knew him when I was young enough to mildly be able to fantasize about him a little bit, so that’s what he occupies for me. And for so many. I’m telling you, you’ll have to do a little lunchtime poll of women our age, because that character is up there.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, I get the Heathers reference.

Sloan Just:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
So Sharon introduces the new girl, Delia, played by Senta Moses.

Sloan Just:
Yeah, she’s so cute.

Mandy Kaplan:
I just want to say her name out loud, because I wanted to adopt her.

Sloan Just:
Yeah. She’s so adorable.

Mandy Kaplan:
I wanted to take her home and raise her as my own. She was beyond wonderful.

Sloan Just:
Isn’t she good?

Mandy Kaplan:
And Brian is intrigued, but eventually he uses her to get to Angela. Brian, what are you doing?

Sloan Just:
You know what I love about this, though? That’s a trope, right? We’ve seen that — uh oh, Kirk Cameron has too many dates on Growing Pains, he’s gonna go back and forth. Another problematic teen idol.

Mandy Kaplan:
Pete, you’ll edit out any mention of Kirk Cameron on my show, right?

Sloan Just:
Are there any good ones left? Anyway.

Mandy Kaplan:
Rickie — oh.

Sloan Just:
I don’t know. That’s so sad — I have to try to think of somebody.

Mandy Kaplan:
They all suck.

Sloan Just:
Jason Priestley, not great. All right, we’ll come back to it.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh.

Sloan Just:
Anyway, what I love about this episode is that the using is universal. Angela’s using Brian to get to the dance. Brian’s using Delia. In a weird way, Rickie’s using Rayanne, because she set up that he’s there with Corey, and no one gets what they want. There’s that scene where Angela’s saying to Brian, “You’re so heartless. How can you play with someone’s feelings like that?” And he’s just looking at her like, I want to kill you with my bare hands. The naivety of being like, I’m unhappy, I’m not getting what I want, and not being able to look at the bigger picture and realize you’re doing that to someone else. I think the dance of that is fascinating.

Mandy Kaplan:
Right. And I like that they let our protagonist be so ugly. She’s so layered, and she’s not perfect. I think that elevates — I think I’ve used the word “elevate” too much. Drink, everybody. But I think that sets this apart: she’s complex and making mistakes and intentionally hurting people just to get what she wants, even though we love her.

Sloan Just:
Yeah. But you still root for her. She’s a very lovable protagonist, and I think it’s because she feels like how we felt at that age. We all did some dirty dealings. Doesn’t make us a bad person, but we knew what we wanted, and sometimes you had to do something not so nice to get it.

Mandy Kaplan:
I was always the Delia in the situation.

Sloan Just:
I’ll put that with the brand, yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
I did not do those things. But now, more importantly — and I think we’re both feeling it, and I just want to call it out because I don’t want anyone to be uncomfortable — how do you talk about the show without saying “Angela”?

Sloan Just:
That setup was so — God bless you. Oh my God, that was amazing. I keep Tony and them, and the people in this show, on totally different parts of my brain. But —

Mandy Kaplan:
I’m just seeing Judith Light through the whole show.

Sloan Just:
Well, if you have to see somebody, Light’s a good one.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yes. Absolutely. All right. Let’s move on to episode twelve, Self-Esteem.

Sloan Just:
Okay.

Mandy Kaplan:
Angela ignores her schoolwork to spend time making out with Jordan Catalano in the infamous boiler room. But Jordan Catalano doesn’t want his friends to know that they’re together. So I did tease this — she shows up and he’s playing pool, and he literally looks away.

Sloan Just:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
He’s awful. But this is where they’re making out, and I was like, whoa, they’re making out.

Sloan Just:
Yes. They’ve gotten to that point.

Mandy Kaplan:
Mm-hmm.

Sloan Just:
But even in the chronology of the show, it’s a bit of a surprise that it’s happening. Like in life, they have these spits and starts, and then by that episode she’s like, this thing started happening that I’ve been —

Mandy Kaplan:
And he keeps her as a guilty secret, or a secret shame, and it’s so sad that he won’t —

Sloan Just:
And her friends — don’t you love that both Rayanne and Sharon are like, unacceptable? And they do it in totally different ways.

Mandy Kaplan:
Love Rayanne in this episode.

Sloan Just:
Oh, love. I do too. And Sharon too. And Guy and I — my friend I talked about, who watched the show and loves it also — we used to just say all the time: you know when she’s in the boiler room and his friend is up at the top of the stairs, and they’re talking about going to see Buffalo Tom? That’s the name of the band they’re going to see. And she’s like, “Oh, Buffalo Tom?” — kind of trying to force a natural conversation, like she heard it from somewhere else. And Guy and I, for years, like a corncob, we’d be like, “Oh, Jigos to Buffalo Tom. I love Buffalo Tom.” It was like a catchphrase for us.

Mandy Kaplan:
That’s so funny, because I said to Meg — who pays me per shout-out, so I gotta keep it up —

Sloan Just:
I mean, honestly, how do I get on that?

Mandy Kaplan:
I said, oh, I’m watching My So-Called Life, I know you love that. And she was like, “Buffalo Tom.” It was the first thing she said.

Sloan Just:
That’s so good.

Mandy Kaplan:
And I hadn’t seen it yet. So I was like, Buffalo what?

Sloan Just:
The other thing I want to pick your brain about quickly — I don’t want to take us too off track — but do you like that Tino is in every episode but you never meet him? It’s my favorite thing. They’re always like, “Tino got me this Chinese food. Tino’s gonna be there. Tino —”

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, is he like Norm’s wife Vera, or Maris?

Sloan Just:
Vera, and Maris. Isn’t it Maris on Frasier?

Mandy Kaplan:
Maris.

Sloan Just:
Maris, thank you.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, it’s Maris.

Sloan Just:
Sorry, Niles.

Mandy Kaplan:
I watch Frasier every night.

Sloan Just:
Oh well.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.

Sloan Just:
Yeah, Tino’s never seen, but he’s always referred to.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh really? I didn’t pick up on that.

Sloan Just:
Anyway, carry on.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah. So obviously she’s making out with him, and then — I don’t want to be shallow, but the mom’s haircut makes her look like an extra from Baby Boom, and it bugs me.

Sloan Just:
Yes, the second episode she cuts her hair and it’s a whole thing.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah, I was not a fan.

Sloan Just:
But in that time, imagine — they’re always referencing the Clintons. It’s the Clinton era. So it’s kind of Hillary-ish.

Mandy Kaplan:
Hillary, okay.

Sloan Just:
It’s of its time.

Mandy Kaplan:
Makes sense. This episode was very clear to me — everyone’s roles were clear, and I just was like, go Rayanne, with a thousand exclamation points. She really stands up for her friends. It contradicts who she is in the next episode, because here she’s fearless, like, boom, here I am, deal with me, I’m gonna speak my mind.

Sloan Just:
Yeah, we take some turns. Rayanne is so great, and she makes a lot of really big mistakes coming up, not just alcohol-related. So she’s gonna take you on a ride, and you’re gonna love her the whole time. But she doesn’t come from a place of making good decisions generally, and she makes some really bad choices. But she loves Angela fiercely. I love that scene where she’s like, “She’s not gonna wait around forever,” and “she deserves it.” We’d all kill for a girlfriend to say that to the guy who’s fucking around with us.

Mandy Kaplan:
Mm-hmm.

Sloan Just:
And it worked. Except what really worked was Shakespeare. They’re in English in Mr. Katimski’s class, and he’s doing “My mistress’ eyes are nothing like the sun” — that sonnet.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yes. And Brian is feeling it.

Sloan Just:
Yeah, but so is Jordan. Brian always talks. You know that montage in the pilot where they’re like, “anyone but Brian,” and every scene he’s reading? I think that’s brilliant.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yes.

Sloan Just:
But anyway, it’s normal that Brian would be answering the question. So Katimski’s like, is Shakespeare talking about a beautiful woman? Is she perfect? And Brian’s like, no, no — she’s real. And then Jordan Catalano, who never talks because he’s a poor student and he’s been left back twice, pipes up from the back with something. Even just one word — “Does he not love her then?” And the answer is, no, yes. And you see him going, oh my God, it’s okay that I have feelings for this girl who’s not an Alicia Silverstone. And then that scene where he goes and takes her hand in the hall — did that move you, or did you hate him so much that you weren’t —

Mandy Kaplan:
Right. I hated him so much.

Sloan Just:
Oh, I weep at that every time.

Mandy Kaplan:
Well, that’s the thing they say about Pretty in Pink — that originally she ended up with Ducky, and test audiences were so upset and wanted her with Blaine, and they switched it.

Sloan Just:
Yeah. And that’s why his hair is so bad.

Mandy Kaplan:
Is it the wig?

Sloan Just:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
But I am Team Ducky. I married my Ducky. He was my friend, and I was like, he’s just a friend, he’s just a friend — and then, hey, I’m madly in love with my friend. So I tried to make it work with all the Blaines out there, and all the Jordan Catalanos, and fuck them. I’m all about the friendship.

Sloan Just:
Yeah, I think that — they address it later too. She has more awakenings about Brian and his feelings for her, so it gets set up that you’re like, why aren’t you with that? But I also go, most 14-year-old girls, if you’re putting Jared Leto on one side and Devon Gummersall on the other, bless him — you’re just trying to get with the hot guy. I hope when you grow up that dissipates a little bit.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yes.

Sloan Just:
My husband was unattainable for so many years, which I find hilarious now, because I’m looking at him like, you? I just sit in my house and cry about you. But then we became friends, and that’s when our relationship took off. So you’re a hundred percent right, that’s healthy. But when you’re a young girl who has a giant crush on a massive asshole, there’s just no logic to it.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah. Oh, I get it.

Sloan Just:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
I’m gonna do a theatrical reading when we come back.

Sloan Just:
I’m so excited. Okay.

Mandy Kaplan:
“There is something about Sunday night that makes you want to kill yourself, especially if you’ve just been totally made a fool of by the only person you’ll ever love, and you have a geometry midterm on Monday, which you still haven’t studied for, because you can’t, because Brian Krakow has your textbook and you’re too embarrassed to even deal with it. And that creepy 60 Minutes watch that sounds like your whole life ticking away.”

Sloan Just:
Yeah, relatable AF.

Mandy Kaplan:
Perfection.

Sloan Just:
I know.

Mandy Kaplan:
That writing, watching her on the couch.

Sloan Just:
Oh, pretending that she’s studying, and Patty’s like, how do you feel? And she’s like, great. We’ve all been there.

Mandy Kaplan:
Love how they tapped into that generation, the kind of drama and pain and darkness that we all felt so deeply.

Sloan Just:
And the stakes are so high, always, for her.

Mandy Kaplan:
And, language-wise — I forgot to say, I can believe Winnie Holzman did some time in a high school.

Sloan Just:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
Because these characters say “like” so much, but it doesn’t feel put on.

Sloan Just:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
It feels very real that that’s how kids are talking.

Sloan Just:
Even the way she breaks sentences up. Like you said, “I like the way he leans against things.” That’s a stream of consciousness. And fun fact, Pete: her first go-around with writing this show, she did diary entries as if they were from Angela.

Mandy Kaplan:
Like Doogie Howser.

Sloan Just:
Yeah, that turned into the voiceovers. She did it as a writing exercise, and it really shows that she honed her voice. And she’s in the show too, Winnie Holzman.

Mandy Kaplan:
Mm-hmm. I didn’t know that.

Sloan Just:
She plays — you’ve seen her in an episode, the next one, when Rayanne goes to the school counselor. She plays the school counselor.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh yes, I did know that.

Sloan Just:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay.

Sloan Just:
And I agree, the 60 Minutes clock is real.

Mandy Kaplan:
Uh —

Sloan Just:
I still have anxiety when I hear that.

Mandy Kaplan:
Well, now we have anxiety for different reasons.

Sloan Just:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay, not gonna go there.

Sloan Just:
I’ll go there.

Mandy Kaplan:
I would like to segue into what you are doing. We talked about social media, and I thought about twisting it into your launch of your burlesque career, which I’m so excited about. But I’m just gonna ask you outright: tell me about Dasha Paprika.

Sloan Just:
Dasha Paprika is my burlesque alter ego. She is born of a years-long midlife crisis, and I’m just riding the wave. It’s just a blast. I have a posse of 25-year-old girlfriends who invite me to birthday parties in Brooklyn at 11 on a Wednesday, which is adorable. I don’t go.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, I was like, oh my God.

Sloan Just:
Please. But it’s infused a lot of youth into my life. I find it really creatively satisfying. I always did a lot of dance — I was a professional dancer — but I was in a different-looking body, and was wildly confident in that body because I got good results from it. And now I look different. Something just told me, you’re having trouble adjusting to being middle-aged and looking this certain way, so what’s the scariest thing you could do in that arena? And it’s get on stage and shake my boobs and get naked. And it feels, weirdly —

Mandy Kaplan:
Yes, yes.

Sloan Just:
All of a sudden, I understand the whole stripper mantra of, you’re in control, and it’s empowering. It really is. And as a choreographer, I get these little three-minute vignettes where I can do whatever the hell I want.

Mandy Kaplan:
So you’re performing live?

Sloan Just:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay, all over New York?

Sloan Just:
Yeah, I’ve done a few in Manhattan and a few in Brooklyn. Brooklyn’s big.

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay, great.

Sloan Just:
I’m into Bensonhurst all the time now.

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay, great. But you’re not posting videos on Dasha Paprika’s Instagram.

Sloan Just:
Yeah, I need to. That’s the next hurdle. I need to do those little — what are they called, at the top, where you save the circles? Clips. You know the circles, those stories.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, stories.

Sloan Just:
I don’t know. I have to research how much, because some of my friends post their whole things, and it gets down to tassels, and I don’t know if that’s legal. I don’t know what the whole deal is.

Mandy Kaplan:
And also, just as a creator, don’t post whole things, because then people won’t come.

Sloan Just:
Right, right.

Mandy Kaplan:
Just post a little clip to get everybody to say, well, I want to see what happens at the end of this number.

Sloan Just:
Yeah, I think I’m gonna do that. I have two that are already in video form. And I’m going to my friend’s birthday party, where the theme is blasphemy, and I’m doing an ode to The Crucible, where I start out as a Puritan. I’m very proud of the idea. At the end, when I take off my clothes, there’s red, because I’m worshiping the devil. And then I have flame pasties and flame underpants, because I got burned.

Mandy Kaplan:
Of course you do.

Sloan Just:
Yeah, so there’s that theater degree making itself worth every penny.

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh yeah.

Sloan Just:
But it’s a fun world.

Mandy Kaplan:
Worth every penny.

Sloan Just:
It’s like misfit toys. Everyone’s a little quirky and weird, and I love that. And it’s down and dirty. Alan Cumming owns a club in the city on the Lower East Side where they do burlesque, and the dressing room — you go into one of those things in the sidewalk that you’re always worried you’re gonna fall through. It’s like their stock room. You go down the stairs into the stock room and put on your clothes down there, amongst the produce, and then you come up and do your act. It’s coming from Broadway —

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.

Sloan Just:
But it doesn’t feel like, oh no, where have I landed? It feels fun, and almost low-risk.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yes.

Sloan Just:
It just feels creative.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yes. And Robert’s become a fan.

Sloan Just:
Robert is a fan. Oh, he’s like a groupie.

Mandy Kaplan:
Obviously.

Sloan Just:
I mean, you would think obviously, but with some husbands, you never know. He knows to be married, though.

Mandy Kaplan:
When I first moved to LA, the first musical I did out here was in the basement of a Mexican restaurant. And it was magical.

Sloan Just:
Yeah. Thank you for asking.

Mandy Kaplan:
Well, everybody can follow you at Dasha Paprika on Instagram.

Sloan Just:
Well, Dasha underscore Paprika. D-A-S-H-A.

Mandy Kaplan:
Don’t correct me on my own show, Sloan.

Sloan Just:
I know, I just — well, you know, if you’re gonna plug it.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yes, Dasha underscore Paprika. It’ll be in the show notes.

Sloan Just:
Thank you. Thank you, Pete.

Mandy Kaplan:
The pictures are gorgeous, but I just want videos.

Sloan Just:
My tagline is “the spiciest rack in town,” which I’m proud of. I lean heavily towards the comedy. I’m not out there trying to seduce anyone’s husband. There’s humor in it.

Mandy Kaplan:
That’s fantastic. I’m so happy for you. You mentioned it when I had you on last, and I was like, you’re gonna what? I was very unaware of what it was, and I think you were still unclear on your vision for it. And now here it is.

Sloan Just:
Yeah, it’s fun, and it feels like doing something. The kids have feelings about it a little bit, which I totally understand. But they’re also being supportive and cool. It’s a weird thing to suddenly see your parent as a person, and not just the one doing shit for you all day, which is 99% of my life. But there’s the 1% now where I’m like, hey guys, I have a show tonight, I’m gonna be out late. It’s just nice to have something else going on, frankly.

Mandy Kaplan:
That was such a beautiful segue back to My So-Called Life. But before we do that, I want to say I made a movie where I have sex 30 different times.

Sloan Just:
Oh no.

Mandy Kaplan:
30 Nights of Sex to Save Your Marriage, on Tubi.

Sloan Just:
Yeah, I remember hearing about it. I haven’t watched it. Okay, I have to watch it.

Mandy Kaplan:
Everyone should go watch it. It’s hilarious. But Casey’s like, “Hey mom, your movie.” And I’m like, nope. And he’s like, “But what is it?”

Sloan Just:
Nope, not for you.

Mandy Kaplan:
Nope.

Sloan Just:
Well, I just found your Instagram page, because I have it.

Mandy Kaplan:
He’ll never see it. I hope his friends never see it. But everyone listening, I hope you all go watch it on Tubi, because it is a very proud accomplishment.

Sloan Just:
I’m gonna do that right now.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah, you are.

Sloan Just:
My daughter found my Instagram page. I made sure no one from my town followed me, because I didn’t want her to find it, but I needed to keep it public because that’s how clubs find you. And one night my husband got a text from my daughter from the next room that was like, “I just saw mom half naked online and all my friends can see this.”

Mandy Kaplan:
Oh God.

Sloan Just:
He was like, so you’re going private. Because the algorithm suggested it to her — I don’t know how or why. So now I’m private. But I actually feel a little better, because now —

Mandy Kaplan:
Okay.

Sloan Just:
People can follow me and I don’t have to worry that she’s gonna wander in and see my butt.

Mandy Kaplan:
Right. Wow. These are problems Angela didn’t have.

Sloan Just:
And yes, we got that callback.

Mandy Kaplan:
But this episode, On the Wagon, episode 14, is full of problems. Angela and Rayanne start to grow apart, and Rayanne joins Jordan’s band, which is one of the most uncomfortable things I’ve ever seen.

Sloan Just:
Frozen and reading.

Mandy Kaplan:
Patty worries that Rayanne may have started drinking again. Oh, and I’m correcting my earlier statement — he was 21 and she was 14.

Sloan Just:
Yeah, I mean, it’s not ideal.

Mandy Kaplan:
So I was confused. This was my least favorite of the episodes you recommended, just to be honest.

Sloan Just:
Okay. Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
Was Rayanne drinking? She’s acting like a crazy person during this whole episode. She’s erratic and jittery and desperate to get on stage, and then she panics and shits the bed and can’t sing.

Sloan Just:
Desperate, kind of desperate, yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
And were we to surmise that she has in fact fallen off the wagon?

Sloan Just:
No, we’re just to understand that Angela has become really important to her and she feels left out, now that Angela and Jordan are friends again after the breakup. Rayanne likes to be the center of attention and is a good-time girl, and I think she’s having difficulty coping with the fact that Angela’s pulling away a little bit, and that she and Jordan don’t necessarily want her around all the time. She’s also not getting the best advice. Her mom is like, “Well, you can hang out with Angela and Jordan. You know them, Rainey. Make a reason to be there.” No one’s saying, give her a minute, she’ll come back, let it breathe.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah. Her mom is so interesting too, because it seems like she’s a neglectful drunk, but at the end of the episode I was like, oh, she is a present, loving mother. It’s layered. I’m not criticizing it, but I was confused by it.

Sloan Just:
Right. Yeah, Patti D’Arbanville.

Mandy Kaplan:
This Sally Kirkland-light character.

Sloan Just:
Yeah, she was a Warhol factory actress and a model. She’s pretty cool. But yeah, fun fact, Pete.

Mandy Kaplan:
Fun fact.

Sloan Just:
It’s a disservice to you that that was the only time you’d met her, because she’d been in episodes before. She has a great relationship with Rayanne, but they have the opposite of what Patty and Angela have. They’re on opposite ends of the spectrum — they’re best friends. Even when she goes in the freezer to find food and it’s all appetizers, I can relate, because I do that to my poor children. But she’s not a typical leave-it-to-Beaver type mother, and Rayanne could use a little of that.

So when Angela meets — what’s her name — Amber, Rayanne’s mom, she’s so enamored, because she reads her tarot cards and calls her honey and is very touchy. Angela gets something from her that she doesn’t get from her own mother, and Rayanne gets something from Patty that Amber can’t provide. So in this situation, Rayanne needs stability, because she is on the precipice, and Amber just can’t provide that. That’s not who she is, and she doesn’t know how to. So I don’t think we’re meant to think that she’s drinking.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.

Sloan Just:
We see that she pours that drink at Angela’s house as a joke.

Mandy Kaplan:
As a good joke.

Sloan Just:
Until, at the end of the episode —

Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.

Sloan Just:
She takes that swig of that guy’s beer while they’re all waiting in line for the movies.

Mandy Kaplan:
And everything goes into slow motion and everybody’s lives seem to be falling apart. So I have many questions about where this goes. Does Rayanne fall off the wagon?

Sloan Just:
She gets into some trouble in that area, but it doesn’t take over the rest of the season. She makes a really shitty decision when she’s drunk, and then I believe she straightens out as far as the end of that season. So she dips back in, but it’s not like, oh my God, now she’s a raging alcoholic for the next whatever. She uses it to cope for a little bit. And it’s hard to watch, because you love her so much. You love Rayanne. I think that actress is amazing too, and makes such unusual choices. So it’s tough to watch her struggle, but she does. And she has triumphs later that are tough, because she and Angela are in a bad place — even when you watch her have a victory, there’s no one there to celebrate with, because she’s burned some bridges at that point.

Mandy Kaplan:
Mm.

Sloan Just:
But yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
So where did everyone end up at the end of the season? And briefly — did they think they were getting a season two, so did they leave things hanging? And how does that feel when you’re a fan?

Sloan Just:
Yeah, it’s tough. I think that’s why so many people are obsessed with it, because there is a cliffhanger in the love-triangle department — the main love triangle of the show. There’s stuff with the parents that’s unresolved, and that’s another thread that goes through. Meaning, in the first episode it’s kind of implied he’s having an affair, because she sees him down the block talking to a woman, and he said he was going out with his mother.

Mandy Kaplan:
A woman, yeah.

Sloan Just:
So that kind of stuff continues, and the parents are a little bit up in the air in their relationship. And they did hopefully think they were coming back for a season two, but there are varying reasons why they didn’t. One of which is that Claire Danes did not want to come back. She and her parents were kind of a united front, and were like, it’s too much work, she’s too young. And I think her career was gonna start blowing up, and they knew that too. So she segued really seamlessly into films. And then there were other reasons — they didn’t make any money. So I think they were talking about it.

I know that in the second season they were gonna examine, what if Patty and Graham got a divorce. And certain other storylines were gonna get developed. I think — not for Angela, but they were talking about an unwanted pregnancy.

Mandy Kaplan:
Mm-hmm.

Sloan Just:
So they had storylines ready to go, but the combination of the network not being super excited about it and Claire Danes not wanting to come back — it was just not gonna happen.

Mandy Kaplan:
Right. Yeah, I don’t think it would have worked, even though it is a somewhat ensemble show.

Sloan Just:
Yeah, but she’s the heart of it.

Mandy Kaplan:
I mean, she could have been like Chrissy Snow, calling in to the episodes from her aunt’s house, but —

Sloan Just:
Right. And then Cindy came, her cousin, so we were all fine.

Mandy Kaplan:
Yes.

Sloan Just:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
My friend Sloan, we’re all done here.

Sloan Just:
Oh, I hate that.

Mandy Kaplan:
I know.

Sloan Just:
Will you watch the rest of the season? It’s not very long.

Mandy Kaplan:
No, I know. And I am — fun fact, Pete — getting foot surgery, so I will have some time.

Sloan Just:
Oh no.

Mandy Kaplan:
I know.

Sloan Just:
All right, well, let’s not delve into that, but I’m glad to hear that.

Mandy Kaplan:
No.

Sloan Just:
But yeah — well, good, you’ll have time on your back, as they say.

Mandy Kaplan:
In my convalescence.

Sloan Just:
Yeah.

Mandy Kaplan:
So everybody, Dasha underscore Paprika on Instagram. And thank you all for listening, and thank you, Sloan, for being here.

Sloan Just:
This was so much fun. Please invite me back again. I love to yammer with you.