Matthew
Were you expecting Kenobi?
Erin
I was expecting Kenobi. Everyone expects Kenobi, but we did not get Kenobi. We got a pretty awesome special guest cameo in our last episodes of Maul: Shadow Lord, and myself and Matthew are here to talk about it.
Matthew
Erin, let’s just jump right in. This is the Star Wars Generations podcast. We have just watched the last two episodes. We’re going to do a whole bunch of episodes wrapping up the whole show, but just these last two episodes — Vader. What do we think?
Erin
Vader, man. Something I was thinking about just before we started is it’s very interesting to me how when I watch Vader in animation, to me, that is Anakin. Like the attitude, the way he holds himself — that is Anakin. But when I watch live-action Vader, it’s like, oh, that’s Darth Vader. I don’t know why it’s kind of that way for me. In Rogue One, it’s a little different because he’s extra sassy in Rogue One. It’s like, oh, yeah, that’s Anakin. And obviously, some of that is because during the original series, Anakin wasn’t a character yet. But yeah, I felt like the last episode was Anakin just power-maxing and aura farming the entire time.
Matthew
Yeah, I think that’s a great way to put it. And I think part of that — maybe you’re right — because the performers who were playing Darth Vader in the original trilogy, and I say performers because we obviously had James Earl Jones doing the voice, and David Prowse physically embodying Vader — they never had Hayden Christensen’s performance to emulate. I don’t think at that point they were even thinking about it that way. But the point being, they weren’t trying to emulate that performance.
The other thing is, I think Rogue One is maybe a little bit close to the line. But for all the animation ones, as you’re talking about, they’re all happening much earlier in Vader’s story. By the time we get Vader in the original trilogy, he has been Vader for nineteen, twenty years — I think it’s nineteen. And all that anger against himself for possibly killing Padme, against Palpatine for keeping him in that state, for tricking him — all of that has been building. And he’s also been more and more killing Anakin in his mind, insisting that he is not Anakin anymore.
What we’re watching in a lot of the animation is him a lot closer to the transition. In Rebels, he’s been Darth Vader for maybe fifteen years, but it’s still not quite where the movies are. In this show, he’s been Vader for what, like a year and a half, two years?
Erin
Yeah, exactly.
Matthew
What did you think of the choice to not have him speak at all? Like in many ways he wasn’t a character — he was more like a force of nature. How did you feel about the way they presented him?
Erin
I loved it. I thought it was great. One big risk when bringing in a character like Vader or Sidious is you have to keep this as accurate to the character as possible. And I think the most difficult area to do that in would be dialogue. So I think it’s a cool way to not really touch the character or mess with it, avoiding the conversation of, “Why would he say this? Why would he think this?” — because that’s not what the character is meant to do in this show. The character is meant to be a menacing figure, to push Devin over the edge to the dark side. And that’s exactly what he does. He doesn’t need to speak a word. He just needs to be menacing, punch through some walls like an icon, and kabob her master.
Matthew
Kabob is unfortunately a very accurate term there. And I think that’s right, especially because — at least the way I saw it — this is obviously a pivotal moment for Maul, a pivotal moment for Devin, for the Lawsons, for all of them. But this is Tuesday for Vader. What he’s doing during this time is training the Inquisitors and sending them out, and then when they don’t finish the job, sometimes he’ll get involved.
And in terms of his voice — it’s funny that you went to that idea of what he would say. For me, it’s more the fact that once you become Vader, the voice has to be James Earl Jones. And James Earl Jones is dead. Yes, he did a number of sessions to make AI voicing possible going forward, and so at least it’s happening with his consent. They’ve done a little bit of that already. But a lot of people I know — myself very much included — have expressed a lot of discomfort with the idea of hearing new dialogue in James Earl Jones’ voice that’s AI-created.
I have to imagine that was at least part of why they decided not to do it. Like, we’d have to either recast, or we’d have to do this James Earl Jones robot zombie thing — which, Vader’s kind of a robot, almost a zombie, so it sort of works. But still.
The only thing I was left wondering about — and I’d love it if a book or something explored this — is what is Vader thinking during this time? Because he has met Maul before. Only briefly, but Maul was essentially his first real encounter with lethal danger from someone with a lightsaber. And he didn’t have much time with Obi-Wan or with Qui-Gon, but he definitely had some time bonding with Qui-Gon. And then this guy killed Qui-Gon.
You could see it — part of what I thought was brilliant is there was so much rage and anger in Vader when he was fighting Maul that I don’t think was quite there when he was fighting Daki and Devin. At the end against Daki, he really turned on the anger, but it felt very different when he was fighting Maul. I was frustrated because I wanted to know more about that. But I felt like it was the right decision not to dig into it. Because if he had said something like, “We met when I was a boy,” it would have been so wrong.
Erin
I agree. I like that he didn’t say anything. And yeah, it’s interesting to pull out how Maul did kill Anakin’s original master. I almost forget about that sometimes, because there is so much — especially in this show — we’ve been so steeped in Maul lore that his appearance in The Phantom Menace feels further and further away the more Clone Wars, Rebels, and other content comes out about him. So I had almost forgotten about that. It’s a great point: Anakin — or Vader — could have this rage against Maul because “you killed my first master,” and Maul could have this rage against Vader because “you replaced me.”
And going back to what you said about James Earl Jones and his voice — in the early quote-unquote days of AI, when Carrie Fisher passed away and they used motion capture and some AI-generated elements, I think it was a lot more excusable because it was new. But as AI becomes so steeped in our society, I think it’s really important for media and art — especially big companies like Disney — to make the choice to not engage in AI art outright. I don’t know if that went into the decision at all, but I respect that they didn’t do that, because more and more artistic jobs are in danger of becoming obsolete due to AI.
Matthew
I would totally agree with that. And in this case, it’s not like they hired a voice actor instead of doing AI — they just said, we’ll not have him speak. I think morally the choice they made is the correct one. They probably made it not out of some principled stance that AI is bad, but also because I think if the scene had required him to speak and it just wouldn’t work with him being silent, they would have done it. But the way it worked, no one was talking to him. Nobody knew who he was. It was just this thing — less than personal. You couldn’t tell: is this a droid? Is this a robot? Is this a cyborg? Like, what is he?
And I like that Maul didn’t completely figure it out right away. If you remember — and I went back and watched in Rebels because I was stuck on an airplane and didn’t have much else to do — in the Twin Suns episode of Rebels, and in some of the other episodes where Maul shows up, Maul has figured out that Anakin is Vader. He’s trying to warn people about it. I like that in this show he hadn’t fully put it together yet. And that’s also a good reason why Vader wouldn’t say “you hunted me when I was a kid,” because then it would immediately be clear who he is. But I like that Maul was starting to feel like, “I felt this before. I think I know who this is.” It sets up what happens in Rebels so well.
Erin
Yeah, there was definitely a touch of realization as the battle went on — like, oh my God, two and two are coming together. What I was telling Ahsoka about is coming to fruition. And I feel like that could even be more of a driving force for Maul: “Damn, I tried to get an apprentice to stop him before and that didn’t work. So now I really need an apprentice, because this guy’s after me.”
But yeah — I don’t remember who said it; I only got to watch these episodes once instead of twice like I usually do before the show — but partway through the fight, someone said, “You’re not an Inquisitor.” Like, “You are something more.” I can’t remember if it was Maul or one of the Jedi, but I kind of felt like it was one of the Jedi starting to put this together: “This is like ten times harder.”
Also, going back to what you were saying about him using more technical fighting against Maul — I think that’s really true. Watching him fight Daki and especially Devin, he is just fighting them with sheer force. The classic Vader in Episode IV, swinging hard and slow, just crushing people down. And when it comes to Maul, yes, he is hitting him very hard, but there’s more technicality to it, a little more art to the saber fighting, because he can recognize that he can’t use sheer force alone to overwhelm Maul. And I think some of that might have to do with the fact that Maul is also using the dark side, which is where you can tap into the most accessible rage and sheer force — whereas the Jedi, trying to connect with the Force in a more pure way, maybe aren’t able to use that same amount of power, especially after hiding for however long.
Matthew
So you just did something amazing, which is you basically told me all the ways I was wrong without saying it — because I think you misunderstood what I was saying.
I think I did. But I think you’re right. I was saying the reverse: that it felt like there was more raw emotion when he was fighting Maul. But you’re right, there’s also more technicality with Daki and with Devin — it sometimes felt like he wasn’t even trying to kill Devin. I had a moment of wondering, wait, is Devin going to want to be Vader’s apprentice instead of Maul’s? That could be really interesting. But you’re right.
And everything with the lightsaber fighting was completely awesome — all of the shots.
Erin
Oh, those shots right into episode ten, but episode nine too.
Matthew
Episode nine is amazing. Those shots where we’re focusing on Lawson, but in the background we just see the red and blue lights going all over the place — truly incredible. But one moment that stood out to me — and this is where I realized I was wrong and you were correct that he is tapping into that dark-side anger and rage energy — is the moment just before he kills Daki. He has Daki half on the ground, Daki just trying to hold up his lightsaber, and Vader is physically battering him until Daki is no longer able to keep his arm up. It’s kind of a brilliant shot that you have to look closely to see: there’s still a little bit of a blue glow. Daki’s lightsaber has not been knocked out of his hand; it’s still on. He just doesn’t have the physical ability to raise his arm anymore.
And what it reminded me of — and I think it was very intentional — is Luke right before he chops off Vader’s arm. It’s that same overhanded bashing against a raised lightsaber. The exact same. I thought that was a great way of highlighting: this is what that moment was. When Luke came really close — this is exactly what he was doing.
Erin
Yeah, this is not something new for Vader. He is a battering ram when he’s up against people who don’t have the technical skill to fight back and he can just use rage and power.
Matthew
Right. And I liked the strategy from Maul — recognizing that this is a person who was trained as a Jedi, who fights against Jedi. He didn’t need to know that Vader was a former Jedi to understand that. He could just observe: this guy has only ever fought Jedi. And I think that’s also part of why the fighting with Maul is different — because Maul is fighting as a dark-side person himself.
Erin
Yeah. I hadn’t considered that distinction while watching the show. But I think if I went back and watched these episodes more closely, I would notice some real differences between how both the Inquisitors and Vader fight against Maul and his dark side versus the Jedi.
Matthew
I’m not the one to do the frame-by-frame analysis, but I’m sure we’re going to get a lot of TikToks of people doing that kind of high-level analysis and showing us the different forms being used. I’m really excited to look deeper into that.
Erin
I think — don’t quote me on it — but I’m pretty sure Master Daki uses the same fighting form as Obi-Wan. I don’t remember what it’s called, but they had that same fighting pre-stance.
Matthew
Yeah, that same look where your hand is out and the blade is kind of horizontal to the ground above your head.
Erin
Yeah — with a guiding hand and the blade over the head. Exactly.
Matthew
So in terms of the actual confrontation — I want to talk about some of the character stuff as well — but what was it like for you watching Maul and Daki and Devin all fighting together?
Erin
Oh my God, it was so cool. There was just that one moment in episode nine where it showed the two Inquisitors, Maul, Daki and Devin, all clashing against each other for just one moment — and they hold it for like a breath, and then the battle goes on. Oh my God, that was so cool. I was like, that should be a screensaver. That is going to be a picture that hopefully gains some traction with the community, because I thought it was beautiful. Maybe it’s a little cheesy to have everyone pause together in the middle of a fight, but I just thought it was visually stunning.
Matthew
To me, it’s the equivalent of all of our heroes striding together in their most badass way. It’s a little cheesy and ridiculous, but it’s still so damn cool. It’s a trope, and that’s okay. And putting all of this in a misty shot — they did so many great things. There were moments when, because of the mist, you could only see the glow of the lightsabers. And the way Vader was introduced at the end of episode nine — you hear Rook screaming in pain, and you’re like, okay, this is someone really high level. I thought it might be Baylon Skoll, or someone like that — probably one of these two, though you’d be too young, I guess. And then we just hear the breathing, and then that final shot of Vader with his lightsaber, and all the mist turns red. Oh, so well done.
Erin
It was beautiful. I have to go back and watch those episodes more closely to see if they included any of the Imperial March or Vader’s theme, any music from the original trilogy. I wouldn’t be surprised if they did. But yeah, that entrance was so cool.
Matthew
They definitely did. I can’t remember exactly when, but I think when Vader first appeared, they definitely had his breathing, and I think some of it carried into episode ten as well. Really fun.
Erin
Yeah, it was cool. And I loved how — like you kind of said earlier — they don’t even know if he’s a person at first. When Rook dies, she comes running and says there’s something out there — not someone, something. And then she gets pulled back. I thought it was going to be Sidious, and I was like, oh no, because if it was Sidious, I would have been a little frustrated — it’s not very realistic that they would have escaped Sidious. And even Vader — when Maul tries to pull the ceiling down on him, Vader just pushes it back up. Like, cool. Fuck you.
Matthew
I thought that was brilliant on a number of levels. I don’t know if there have been other ceiling-falling moments in the show before — I don’t know if we brought this up — but that’s actually a theme in a lot of the Legends canon books. In both Darth Plagueis and in the Darth Bane books, apprentices kill their masters by pulling the ceiling down on them. So I thought it was cool that that’s highlighted here, and Vader just throws the pieces at Maul like he doesn’t care.
But yeah — this whole thing. First of all, I totally agree with you about Sidious. It would not have made sense. I think Sidious ROFLstomps everyone off here, including probably the Inquisitors, because he’s like, “Why did you idiots fail?” But also I feel like it would make Maul feel too validated. In Maul’s mind, he and Sidious are like great rivals destined for an epic showdown. And Sidious is like, “I don’t even remember your name. I’m not thinking about you.” I think it would give Maul too much respect from Sidious for Sidious to show up.
But back to the thing about them not knowing what Vader is — for Daki and Devin, it’s probably not that far removed from Jedi fighting Grievous. So the idea of a lightsaber-wielding droid is not unthinkable, and granted, Grievous is not really a droid — he’s kind of a cyborg — but that’s what Vader is too. And Grievous was supposed to be a kind of midpoint of the technology toward getting to where Vader is. Of course, the original version of Grievous wasn’t a Force user the same way. But the idea of “is this another Grievous? Is this a droid? Is this something else? We don’t know” — it was just so well done.
Erin
Yeah, I loved the way they presented Vader. I feel like oftentimes when Vader shows up, he is known by the people in the scene in some way. And in this episode, not a single character had any idea who he was. That was so cool — so unique. Not “oh, he’s a higher-up I’ve never met,” but “I don’t know what this thing is, and it is terrifying.”
And I loved how Master Daki — I think it was Daki — got like one hit in on Vader, like a graze of his arm, and Vader was like, “Okay, playtime’s over.”
Matthew
Yeah. You’re right — for a while it really did seem like he was just treating Devin and Daki as distractions and was there to kill Maul. But at that point, he really went for Daki. So let’s talk about Daki’s death. I was wondering all along how they’d handle it — clearly Daki had to die, and that was going to be the thing that pushed Devin over the edge toward the dark side. I think there was never really much doubt about that. But I always thought it was going to be really hard to pull off if Maul killed Daki and then had to keep it a secret from Devin.
The way they did it, it is 100% Vader who kills him — but Maul does this little Force push to stop Daki from getting away, knocking him off balance just enough to let Vader end the fight. How did you think about how that all played out?
Erin
I loved that. I liked how they built the scene with Daki just repeating, “We’re stronger together — together we can defeat this,” and Maul being like, “Yeah, okay, bud,” and then waiting for the perfect moment to be like, “Haha, fuck you,” and taking his escape. Also, Maul has got to do something about those bionic legs, because they are too weak to be out here like this. Vader’s doing great as a cyborg. Maul, you’ve got to step it up.
And now Spybot. Oh, that messed me up.
Matthew
Yeah, we haven’t really talked about that — the jump over the river of toxic waste and all of that. But I admit Spybot was starting to lose a little of his appeal for me — the evil child thing was getting a little old. But it still hit me hard when he died. And that “Master” — it reminded me so much of K-2SO’s death, where he calls out to Cassian and says, “I’ve locked the doors. I hope you can get through.” It was so rough.
Erin
It’s so rough. Yeah. I liked how Maul almost had a stronger reaction to Spybot’s death than to really any of the other people. I mean, yeah, I think he does carry a certain pain when his fellow Nightbrothers died, but he exhibited a special kind of rage after Spybot was killed by the Inquisitor.
Matthew
Yeah, I think that’s very true, and it makes sense. I don’t think it was ever explicitly said, but we know from a lot of the books that Maul made his own droids — including the droids he used in The Phantom Menace. So I think the implication was always supposed to be that he made Spybot. That moment hit hard. But back to Daki’s death—
Erin
There’s so much in these two episodes. I think we’re going to be talking about them a lot.
Matthew
I thought it was really interesting — and a good choice — that we didn’t actually see Vader kill him. What we saw was Vader doing that same thing: knocking Daki down and pounding on his arm the way Luke would eventually do to Vader, so that Daki can’t raise his arm to defend himself anymore. Then we cut to Devin recognizing her master is in lethal danger, and then we cut back and Vader has already stabbed Daki. What was your take on that?
Erin
I loved it. I liked it. I don’t feel like every character needs an on-screen death. And that’s not “oh, certain people don’t deserve it” — I just thought the emotional beats of this scene hit harder when she gets there and it’s too late. She couldn’t even have tried something.
Matthew
Yeah, and I think part of what it does is the emotional beat isn’t Daki’s death — it’s her reaction to it. Because Daki is a great character, and that actor turned in a great performance. I hope we see him in more things.
But yeah, I think the point was: how we feel about him dying is how we feel about what happens to Devin. That brings me to a question, though — either they did something really brilliant or I just missed something, and I want to know what you think.
So we cut away and we don’t see him get stabbed — we see the aftermath. Then later there’s a moment where we don’t see what happens either. Are they using the same visual idea — or did I just miss something? Because Devin is fighting, she has her blue lightsaber, she loses it for a bit, there’s this dark-side turn moment, and at first when she turns to the dark side she’s still fighting with her blue saber, but then it gets knocked away. And then later we see her fighting with a red lightsaber. I couldn’t tell if it was because her saber had turned red or if she’d lost her saber and Maul had given her one of his. Your facial expressions are telling me that Maul gave her one of his. Is that correct?
Erin
Yeah, there was a scene showing exactly that. So basically: she sees Daki’s death, has this burst of rage, and — like anyone running on pure rage with no strategy — immediately gets rocked by the Inquisitor. Literally my favorite: she runs at him full tilt, he just steps back a touch and lifts his knee right into her gut. I was like, no. You’re not even thinking.
So yeah, her lightsaber goes flying over the edge of a cliff. She looks over — Maul is hiding but sees her — and holds out his saber and tosses it. She Force-pulls it to herself.
Matthew
Oh, I don’t know how I missed that entirely.
Erin
Yeah, it’s a short moment. But yeah, Maul gives her his saber, and then she goes against the Inquisitor with just his saber, and then he joins the fight a touch later. However, I think in the transport she was holding her own saber — I don’t think that was Maul’s. But I could be wrong. It wasn’t ignited, right?
Matthew
No, it was not. Yeah. And we established in The Acolyte, as well as in some other places — though it hasn’t been entirely consistent — that generally, you have to do something terrible while holding your lightsaber in order to corrupt the kyber crystal and have it turn red. I was going to think: she’s getting revenge on the people who killed her master. That’s not the Jedi way, but to me that’s not the kind of act that would corrupt a kyber crystal.
Erin
Yeah, that’s not the type of thing to make it bleed.
Matthew
Right. I mean, it’s kind of what Obi-Wan did in The Phantom Menace, but we don’t talk about that as much. I don’t think he fell to the dark side there, but — yeah. So okay, that makes much more sense. I wonder if they were trying to make it a mystery moment, but no — it sounds like it was clear. I just watched on an airplane and missed it. There’s so much detail happening so fast. So, what about Mr. Lawson and his grand sacrifice?
Erin
I thought it was a great way to end it. I’ve heard some people — not you, but another friend who was watching the show — say the character of Lawson felt kind of played out. And I was like, okay, I can understand how that character might feel repetitive to some people. So I think having him do a heroic sacrifice made a lot of sense, because I don’t know where his character would have gone after that.
Matthew
I think I’m almost the reverse of that. I still liked his character — I thought there was some great stuff there, and I would have liked to see more of him. I’m not as invested in Two-Bits yet, and clearly the kid is supposed to be a character going forward, but I don’t know where we’re going with that. His death itself — sacrificing himself for his son — that to me was the one moment of the show that felt like a real cliché. It’s not actively bad, but it does feel like the easy way out.
Erin
Yeah, it definitely does. It harkens back to Rogue One, or certain episodes of The Clone Wars — Heavy staying behind to fight all the commando droids, or Captain Gregor when we first meet him staying behind so all the little aliens and robots can escape. I think — I don’t know if this is a Star Wars thing from growing up on the show or just who I am as a person — but a sacrificial death will always hit me even if it’s a little cheesy. I’m always going to be like, “Damn. He loved his son so much.”
Matthew
I mean, we’ve gotten it from the very beginning, no matter where you start. Obi-Wan does that for Luke. Kanan does that at the end of Rebels, and in such a heartbreaking way. There are just so many times. But it did feel a little off to me that he says, “Get my boy to his mother,” because we’ve now seen just how bad the Empire is, and the mother is still pretty deep in bed with the Empire. The implication is supposed to be that part of next season will be the mother kind of breaking away from the Empire, or Riley having a real conflict with her. But it felt like I would have liked some moment from the mother indicating that maybe she’s not going to be completely devoted to the Empire — given what’s happening — in order for Riley’s father’s dying wish to feel earned.
Erin
Yeah, and here’s the thing: you’re sending your kid and your partner droid away with a crime syndicate. You really think they’re going to go, “Oh yeah, run along to your mother at the Empire”? I feel like season two is going to follow them on adventures trying to escape Crimson Dawn and see if they can make their way back to his mother — form contact, communicate what happened to Lawson, whether she’ll believe them.
I think maybe it’s just another way they’re trying to show the realism of characters within the Empire. They could make that into a really cool thing, like they have with some storylines in Andor — really humanizing Imperial characters. I’ll be lying if I said that’s the storyline I’m waiting on the edge of my chair for, but I’ll watch it happily. I’m sure they can find ways to make it interesting.
And Voss is still alive too. So yeah, he’s probably going to be around.
Matthew
I think Voss is a really fun character. I kind of wanted him to get back into his mech suit from episode one. And the whole bit about, “I’m not short — I’m super tall,” was hilarious.
Erin
I’m super tall! That was hilarious.
Matthew
It was kind of funny, especially because the whole reason he was doing the mission was that him being small was actually good. “You’re a small target — hard to hit.” I thought that was great.
Just as a last thing on that — are we keeping Riley around because Devin is going to start having attachments and being a teenager, and there’s going to be some feelings there? Like, why are we keeping a teenage boy around? That seems like the only possible reason, because he’s not a very interesting character so far. I’m not sure I really want that. What’s your thought there?
Erin
I raise you: final test to the dark side is killing Riley. Done.
Matthew
Okay. I’m down. I’m down.
Erin
I don’t see romance or anything like that. I could see Riley being around for a while as the thing connecting her to the light.
Matthew
Yeah — he’s caught up in loss and grief over Daki’s death and everything. And now he and Two-Bits are the only quote-unquote good guys left as main characters in this show. I can hope they escape and we get some cool adventures, but I could absolutely see Riley being used as a pawn to further Devin’s fall to the dark side.
Erin
Yeah. Okay, that I’m back on board with. Cool.
Matthew
Last thing I wanted to bring up — and the fact that I’m ending with a critique doesn’t mean this wasn’t fantastic. To me this was only one sour note, and maybe you have a better read on it.
This isn’t just the usual nervousness about prequels. With prequels, a lot of the time you either know all the characters have to survive because they show up in other stories, or — like Rogue One — the fact that none of them are ever mentioned again tells you they probably all have to die. I’m curious what the power struggle is going to be between Dryden Vos and Maul, because clearly by the time of Solo, things have somewhat reversed. But in that last big scene, I knew Maul couldn’t die — and that’s kind of okay. I knew Dryden and Maul were going to have this tense moment, but I also knew Dryden couldn’t die. And I think I would have liked it a lot more if it had been one of Dryden’s lieutenants who was sent, or if Dryden had been kept a little more off-screen with some other big name in Crimson Dawn. Especially because they didn’t even use the same voice actor — Paul Bettany played him in live action, but in this it was Scott White, who I think did a pretty good job — but there were just a couple of phrases where you could tell it was different. It made me wonder: why did we need this? Because if it had been someone else, I think it would have left more things open — maybe they could die, it’s one more person without the plot armor of “we know they show up again.”
Erin
I’m honestly surprised they didn’t get Paul Bettany, because he’s done so much with Disney and Marvel. And his voice is so recognizable. Since the first time I heard that voice as JARVIS, I will never unhear it. So it is a bummer, and it makes sense that we were both like, “Something feels a little weird.” I definitely see what you’re saying about the plot armor. How I kind of read that situation is Voss is like, “Haha, I’m playing you — I get you off planet, you give me a job.” And it’s like, you are forgetting this man could kill you with a snap of his fingers. He’s going to go back to Crimson Dawn, murk your boss, and then be like, “Okay, now you work for me or I Force-choke you out.” I just don’t think — as much as Voss wants to believe he has power in that moment — he actually does. Although, to be fair, we saw Voss really step it up against Han and Qi’ra.
Matthew
I just don’t think he’s taking on Maul.
Erin
Yeah, he’s not taking on Maul. And I guess that’s what I mean: because we know he doesn’t just go back and kill Voss — because six or eight years later, in Solo, he’s still there — it does make me want to rewatch the end of Solo. My understanding had been that Voss is one of the main leaders of Crimson Dawn, but Maul is already at the top.
Matthew
Yeah, now I want to go back and wonder: is the implication supposed to be that Maul was working under Voss, but that all of this worked as part of a plan Maul had with Kira to find a way to take Voss down so Maul could take over? I think that would fit better with this. But yeah, I just think they could have done it without Voss and left more things open.
Erin
I see where you’re coming from for sure. It was an opportunity to introduce a new character who was more disposable and left more tension between the characters.
Matthew
Being said — if Voss is a major character in season two, I’m sort of torn, because watching the two of them jockey for position would be fun, even knowing neither one’s going to die yet. But I do really hope they get Paul Bettany back, because his two biggest roles have both been within the Disney universe — Marvel and Star Wars. And as you said with JARVIS, he’s done voice acting for a long time. I know Vision and I think even JARVIS appeared in some of the animated Marvel stuff, like What If…?, so he’s clearly happy going back to voice work.
Erin
Yeah, that’s why I was a little surprised when you confirmed it was a different actor. I just kind of assumed: oh, he’s a Disney guy, he always does the Disney stuff even in the cartoons. But I guess he wasn’t available or not down. I mean, it doesn’t really matter.
Matthew
Yeah, and again, Scott White did a good job of coming pretty close. And obviously all of animated Star Wars has for the most part used new people voicing what had been live-action roles — it’s not like this has never happened before. It’s just that Paul Bettany’s voice is so distinctive that it’s a little harder to replace.
Erin
It is. I kind of felt like I wished it was actually him.
Matthew
All right, I’ve been driving the bus this whole time — you take over the wheel. What are the last things you want to mention? Particular points, particular quotes?
Erin
Hippie Inquisitors — that’s what I want to mention. I think it’ll be interesting to see if the Inquisitors are featured in season two, if Marrok comes back. But I liked how he just got Force-pushed off a cliff. And it kind of left open the conversation we had earlier: does Marrok die and get completely resurrected in the Ahsoka series? Or does he not die?
Matthew
Okay — you could be right. I thought it was Marrok, but either way, go on.
Erin
It could be. It’s just, it looks like it’s spelled “Marrok,” and I play him more in the Star Wars game than I watch visual media where they say his name. So I may say it differently. Anyway. I kind of like that they left it open.
And then — the more we see of the Crow, or I think maybe the Eleventh Brother is his official title, but the character that Ahsoka kills and then has her crystal restored — I love that we’re seeing more of him, because his character design is just so cool. And there was this moment where the Inquisitors were backed up and it was just them against Devin while Maul and Daki were fighting Vader in the background. They had told her to run, and Devin is just like, “God, okay, here we go.” And the Inquisitors take a beat, and then when they rush at her the Crow lets out this bird battle cry. I freaked out. I was like, that is some of the coolest stuff I’ve seen in a minute.
I loved how menacing the Inquisitors are in this. In Rebels, although they were menacing, they were such common foils to Ezra and Kanan that they were relatively beatable — or at least escapable. So I like seeing them in a context where they feel more genuinely dangerous. For the first eight episodes of this series, they were the bad guys, the big bads with the lightsabers who were hard to fight. We even see Maul struggling against them. So I like that they carried more weight in this show than they have in others.
Matthew
I think that’s very true. I said earlier that I wanted to see them do the helicopter trick. I’ve heard many people say the spinning lightsaber thing seems a little too silly and kind of takes away from their power — I don’t want to believe that, but they didn’t do it, and they definitely seemed more powerful. That’s not enough to prove causation, but I kind of understand the argument.
You’re right, though — they were much more forces of nature. And part of why we’re having this discussion is that I’m pretty sure neither “Marrok” nor “the Crow” nor “the Eleventh Brother” are ever said out loud in the show.
Erin
No, it’s never said in the show — it’s just in subtitles or on Wikipedia.
Matthew
Yeah, I think you’re very right. And just everything about them — the fact that they barely talk to each other, and when they do it’s just about the mission. We know nothing about them. That was also well done.
And it does make me wonder what’s going to happen next. This was a hard fight. If I was their leader, I’d be like: you guys got beat, you didn’t succeed in the mission, and I’m annoyed about that. But I also understand you were up against a serious challenge. Vader is not great at, you know — ask a couple of generals and admirals how forgiving he is when they fail. I’ve always thought that in the past when Vader has had to show up personally, there’s sometimes been a “you idiots weren’t supposed to call me in — you were supposed to handle this yourselves, and now it’s not going to go well for you.” But the fact that Vader couldn’t clean it up either? He might be like, “I’m not going to kill you for failing at something I also failed to do.”
But I am curious: is Marrok dead, or is he going to be resurrected — will the Nightsisters do something with him and he becomes Green Ghost Man? What’s going to happen with the Crow? I’m very curious how Vader is going to feel about the fact that first Marrok, then Marrok and the Crow, then all three of them failed in their mission.
Erin
Yeah. It’ll be interesting. I hope we see those characters back — at least the Crow. I just love that character.
Matthew
Yeah. Actually, the more I think about it, that could connect to something. In a lot of the Legends canon, there’s a fairly early point where Vader fails at something, and that’s why Tarkin winds up becoming more of the Emperor’s right-hand man than Vader. There are a bunch of different versions of this, but that’s part of why by the time of A New Hope, as they say, Tarkin is holding Vader’s leash — and by Rogue One, Vader is kind of just unleashed and doing his own thing. And it’s in part because he disappointed the Emperor.
I wonder if that’s what this is — or if there’s going to be some element of this. I don’t think it could fully play out for another fifteen years until Mustafar and that period, but I do think it’d be interesting if Sidious is disappointed in Vader because of this, and if that’s going to have implications.
Erin
Yeah, that’s an interesting way to see it. Being more familiar with the animated stuff than live action, it’s something I hadn’t really thought about for a while — that yeah, Vader’s kind of in the doghouse when we first meet him.
Matthew
All right, well, there’s so much more we could say, but we’re almost at an hour — much longer than these episodes normally are. Thank you so much for all of this. To our fans: we’re going to do a lot of feedback episodes and stuff like that, so send us your questions, send us your thoughts. We want to hear it. I’m going to have myself and Erin and Alex — who couldn’t be here today but will be here soon — thank you all so much for being a part of this journey.
Erin
Stay classy.
Matthew
All right. I’m ready. Let’s go.
