This week, we’re exploring the transformative power of the “yes, and…” principle, a cornerstone of improv performance. This simple yet effective phrase encourages performers to not only accept but also expand upon their partners’ spontaneous ideas. How can this mindset apply to daily life for those of us with ADHD? Today, we’re navigating how to use comedy to handle unexpected situations with ease and resilience.
We dive into the concept of “yes, and…” as a tool for embracing and moving forward through challenging, unexpected, or complex moments. By replacing the instinctive “no, but…” response with a more adaptive and flexible attitude, it becomes easier to face adversity head-on and maintain momentum.
We discuss the rejection faced by performers, writers, and directors alike, their coping strategies, and how they manage not to take rejection personally. By drawing parallels with rejection sensitivity dysphoria (RSD), we uncover techniques to foster acceptance and perseverance.
Mandy Kaplan is an actress, vo artist, singer, writer, ninja and podcast host living in LA. Her voice can be heard in hundreds of commercials/video games/and SO many audiobooks. Onscreen, she can be seen starring in the feature film 30 Nights of Sex to Save Your Marriage available on Tubi TV for free right now, a film she also co-wrote and produced. Her cabaret Miscast: Right Singer, Wrong Song has been running in LA for over 12 years.
Mandy Fabian was the director and creator of Lifetime’s first digital series, The Young Hillary Diaries, and co-created and wrote the Amazon series Dropping the Soap, which won Jane Lynch an Emmy! She’s a Sony Television Directing Program Fellow, was named “Best New Filmmaker of the Year” by NewFilmmakers LA, and her latest screenplay, Late Bloomer, was selected for the Meryl Streep/Oprah Winfrey Writers Lab. Most recently, she completed her feature directorial debut Jess Plus None, an awkward comedy that will be released in the fall of 2023.
Together, they co-host the Mandcave, a podcast about two best friends who have nothing in common except their names on TruStory FM. Our ultimate goal for this episode is to inspire listeners to find humor amidst life’s challenges. By nurturing a comedic perspective and using it as a roadmap back to happiness, we hope to encourage a more profound reflection on the power of laughter in overcoming adversity.
Links & Notes
- Check out the Mandys in their podcast: Mandcave
- In LA? Get tix for Mandy Kaplan’s Cabaret, “Miscast LA: Right Singer, Wrong Song”
- Check out the trailer for Mandy Fabian’s film, “Jess Plus None”
- Watch Mandy Kaplan’s film, “30 Nights” free on Tubi right now
Episode Transcript
Pete Wright:
Hello everybody and welcome to Taking Control, the ADHD podcast on TruStory FM. I’m Pete Wright and I’m here with Nikki Kinzer.
Nikki Kinzer:
Hello everyone. Hello, Pete Wright.
Pete Wright:
Oh, Nikki, you’re looking good today. Is your kung fu strong? You feeling good?
Nikki Kinzer:
`Yeah, of course.
Pete Wright:
Are you ready for today’s show?
Nikki Kinzer:
I am. I’m excited.
Pete Wright:
Do you have any specific training in performance yourself?
Nikki Kinzer:
None at all.
Pete Wright:
Have you ever taken at all any acting or improv classes?
Nikki Kinzer:
No.
Pete Wright:
No? No comedy.
Nikki Kinzer:
Nope. I’ve been to an improv show and I used to watch the TV show with Drew Carey a lot.
Pete Wright:
Yep, yep. Nope, that was funny.
Nikki Kinzer:
But that’s about the extent of it.
Pete Wright:
There’s some funny stuff in that. Okay, well this will be a great show. We’ve got a couple of my favorite people on the show, and they’re going to teach us about all kinds of things, I think. Who knows? It could come off the rails fast.
Before we get digging to all of this, please head over to takecontrolADHD.com. You can get to know us a little bit better. You can listen to the show right there on the website or subscribe to our mailing list, and we will send you an email with the latest episode each week. You can connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, or Pinterest at Take Control ADHD. But to really connect with us, join us in the ADHD Discord community. It is super easy to jump in the general community chat channel. Just visit takecontrolADHD.com/discord and you will be whisked over to the general invitation page and log in.
If you’re looking for a little more, if you’re not satisfied with just a sniff, then you should become a Patron. Patreon is listener supported podcasting, and if this show has ever touched you or helped you understand your relationship with ADHD in a new way, then you can touch us back through Patreon. It’s a way to just for a couple bucks a month, you can help guarantee that the show continues to grow and thrive and that we invest new features. Members get access to the show live streamed as we record. They get early access to the show in their very own Patreon member podcast feed. There’s just a lot of good stuff that happens when you’re a part of Patreon and you help us do a lot of good stuff too. So patreon.com/theadhdpodcast. Thank you, thank you, thank you for your support. Nikki, we have an announcement.
Nikki Kinzer:
Book club. Yes, we have a book club. If you’re listening to this episode the day it comes out, then we have just opened enrollment for our next ADHD book club group. I am so excited to jump into this next ADHD book club because we are going to be discussing one of my favorite books about ADHD, and I know it’s a favorite for a lot of our listeners. We’ll be going through the book Focused Forward by the lovely James Ochoa. So even if you’ve read this book before, I highly encourage that you sign up for this group. Experiencing a book within a group always brings up new things that you may not have thought about when you read it by yourself. I’ve already talked to James and he is on board with showing up to one of our meetings and joining our discussions, so I’m very excited about that.
Pete Wright:
But we’re not going to tell you which one.
Nikki Kinzer:
Well, because I don’t even know which one.
Pete Wright:
So you have to come to all of them. It’s like a James game. It’s like a James Ochoa shell game.
Nikki Kinzer:
It’s a secret, yes, but he is going to be there. So don’t miss out on this opportunity. You can learn more and sign up on our website. Just go to service pages or going to the service page on takecontroladhd.com and click on the ADHD book club. The deadline to enroll is May 31, 2023.
Pete Wright:
You know what, I’m going to fix that. You just read it, but I’m already going to fix it. Go to the services page. Just go to takecontroladhd.com/book club. How about that?
Nikki Kinzer:
Perfect.
Pete Wright:
There. Like magic, it will work.
Nikki Kinzer:
That’s great.
Pete Wright:
Okay, let’s talk about yes, and.
I am giddy, giddy I tell you, to introduce you to our guests on the show today. Mandy Kaplan is an actress, vo artist, singer, writer, ninja, and podcast host living in LA. Her voice can be heard on hundreds of commercials, video games, and so many audio books. On screen, she can be seen starring in the feature film, 30 Nights of Sex to Save Your Marriage available on Tubi TV for free right now, a film she also co-wrote and produced. Her cabaret Miscast: Right Singer, Wrong Song has been running in LA for more than 12 years.
Now, Mandy Fabian was the director and creator of Lifetime’s first digital series, the Young Hillary Diaries. She co-created and wrote the Amazon series Dropping the Soap, which won Jane Lynch an Emmy. She’s a Sony television directing program fellow, was named best new filmmaker of the year by New Filmmakers LA, and her latest screenplay, Late Bloomer was selected for the Meryl Streep/Oprah Winfrey Writer’s Lab. Most recently, she completed her feature directorial debut, Jess Plus None, an awkward comedy that will be released in the fall of 2023.
Together, and most importantly, they co-host the MandCave, a podcast about two best friends who have nothing in common except their names on TruStory FM, and they are some of my favorite people ever. Mandys, welcome to the ADHD podcast.
Mandy Kaplan:
Thank You. Thank you guys for having us.
Mandy Fabian:
Ironically, you can touch us back, was the first two lines of my wedding vows.
Pete Wright:
You’ve been holding on to you can touch us back from… Yeah, that’s good.
Mandy Fabian:
Yeah, I clocked that. That’s another comedy classic that we’ll get to, the call back.
Pete Wright:
I did also get in the comments, did Pete just say, if you’re not okay with just a sniff as his segue to being a Patreon subscriber? I don’t know, just add it to the list. You know what? Another notch on the bed post.
Hey you guys, this is so great that you are here, because I think you are two of the funniest people that I know. I think just generally funny people and I’m so excited to be able to talk to you about your experience with comedy in life, but how you relate to the world through a comic lens and how that helps you. But I feel like we have to start with something that I’ve never asked. Because it was not the intention of this show, what is your relationship, if any, to ADHD?
Mandy Fabian:
I’m pretty sure I have it, but I haven’t been able to get through a whole article on it. I have had relatives send me things of like, these might be symptoms of ADHD, and I’m like, no, no. I don’t know what you’re.. I have many friends that have been diagnosed, but I honestly, I feel like, I definitely feel like I have some symptoms of it for sure.
Pete Wright:
A friend of ADHD. Kaplan, what do you got?
Mandy Fabian:
Absolutely.
Mandy Kaplan:
She’s an ally. I don’t have it. I am laser focused. I taught kid’s theater for a long time and I dealt with many of my students who clearly had it, some who had the IEP and their parents would talk to me, some who were not diagnosed, but it was very clear. My stepmom has it, my stepbrother has it, so it’s around me, but-
Pete Wright:
Not directly.
Mandy Kaplan:
Not directly. And my experience of it is people thriving. I don’t see it as a hindrance to any of those people in my life.
Pete Wright:
Well, and are those people in performance as well? Are they in the biz?
Mandy Kaplan:
My stepmother? No.
Pete Wright:
No? And she’s thriving, so that’s good.
Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Okay. Well, just to set up. Did I get anything wrong with your intros? Do you want to correct anything and how did you come to terms with the fact that you wanted to be comedy married, and how did your husbands take the news?
Mandy Fabian:
It started in bubble bath [inaudible 00:08:04].
Mandy Kaplan:
Well, this preceded our husbands. Yeah. And this predates our husbands.
Pete Wright:
All right.
Mandy Kaplan:
They don’t get a say.
Pete Wright:
They don’t get a say, and that actually holds true over the years. Okay. Well then let’s talk a little bit about why we’re here. The whole conceit of this conversation was started with a conversation between Nikki and me and Discord mom, Melissa, on our team, talking about how important it is to really have, with ADHD, to foster a good sense of humor and are there tools that we can use to help us deal with the constraints of ADHD in our lives that come from, let’s say, improv for example.
And we started kind of riffing on this whole yes, and, yes, and. How does yes, and play into your relationship with the world around you. We know it’s a kind of tropey improv technique. But ADHD, if you’re struggling with your relationship with ADHD, it’s a no, but relationship. It can put you in a pretty dark place. So to get us started, can you teach us what is yes, and, and why is it so important?
Mandy Kaplan:
In the improv world, if I jump on stage and I say, “Oh no, our hot air balloon is falling out of the sky, what are we going to do?” The minute somebody denies that premise and says, “No, we’re not in a hot air balloon. We’re swimming in the ocean,” the scene dies. It’s over. End of scene. So yes, anding extends things, keeps them going, keeps them alive, and always adds, it adds color, it adds more detail. It’s only positive when you say yes, and the hot air balloon is on fire. Then you have something more to play with.
Mandy Fabian:
It’s a tool for being comfortable with the unknown. A lot of people try to grab control of a situation. If someone has made an offer to you, there’s an instinct to go, “No. But I had an idea in my head that we were both lords on a yacht. Don’t tell me I’m on a hot air balloon falling from the sky.” But it’s a great way for you to just sink into. It’s a tool you can use to go, hey, I don’t know what’s going to come next, but the best thing about improv is, I can reach for an item off the shelf not knowing what it is and pull it back and go, oh, it’s a skull, or oh, it’s a box of Legos. And it gives you this comfort with going, whatever I reach for, it’s going to be there. It’s that practice of saying yes, and, if I stay with the flow of what is, I can reach into the unknown and pull back something every single time.
But you have to overcome that instinct to go, no, I want to stick with something I already know and I’ve already planned. That’s the way I would describe it.
Pete Wright:
Well, I think you’ve just described so much of the experience with ADHD. And it’s something we’ve talked about a lot, right Nikki, is the idea of the discomfort with changing contexts and being able to deal with surprise. And as you say, Fabian, dealing with the stuff that we don’t have control over, that is uncertain. And I wonder, we’re talking about it as a strategy, a tool that you’re using in writing and performing, but how does that mindset work in day-to-day life? Do you find that it’s a natural mindset that you guys have cultivated or is it something you have to work at? Or do you forget just ’cause we’re all human?
Mandy Fabian:
I mean, I think artist brain is very similar, this constant sort of wanting to have control but not really having it. Or trying to feel like you have control by practicing your craft. I think they’re very similar and you just have to use it on a daily basis, but certainly it’s a practice. You don’t wake up going, I’m totally fine with not knowing what happens today or taking whatever comes today. I don’t know that anybody, except very enlightened people, can walk through the day going, I have no fear about anything that might happen.
I think it is a practice, and I think it’s something that, particularly with what we do as creatives, because every day we’re writing a new script or we’re working on a new project, we’re putting a new project out there, we have no idea what the response is going to be. In improv shows, you don’t know what’s going to happen. You don’t know how the audience is going, whether they’re going to laugh at a joke, particularly in comedy. There is a rigorous kind of challenge to overcome any shame or resistance that might come up from that situation and practice a willingness to take the next step. You have to be excited for an adventure, because there is an adventure to it that can override any fear of what’s next. There’s that other side to what’s next, which is it could be really exciting.
Pete Wright:
Part of the thing that I think is a huge challenge is, there’s the first half, which is changing context quickly, and there’s the second half, which is being able to move on from that context. And you just said, part of the process is being able to hear a thing, act on a thing, and then put that behind you.
I think when you’re living with ADHD, so much of the shame and regret and the feeling of rejection is in the camper van that is trailing us all the time. I’m curious, and I guess I’ll turn to you, Kaplan, because I see you as somebody who is just naturally really good at this, of how do you put getting burned behind you? Is there some sort of an idol that you stick needles into, or is there something that you light on fire and then you’re able to cleanse yourself from it?
Mandy Kaplan:
Well, I’ve never made a mistake or had anything go wrong-
Pete Wright:
That might be why.
Mandy Kaplan:
… in my life, so that’s helpful.
Mandy Fabian:
Yeah. It works well.
Mandy Kaplan:
I think the good stuff comes from mistakes and failures, and I think that that’s not true only as a performer, that’s true in our lives. When you mess up your recipe and then you realize, oh, I should add some more sugar, and then it turns into something you never thought and something new is born. Plan B can often be wildly better than what you planned and hoped for, so I try to, in performing and in writing in particular, you flesh out a whole thing and then you look at it and you say, oh, this is garbage. I need to rip this up and start over. But it’s going to get you somewhere.
There’s a purpose behind every mistake or failure or let down. And I try to… My camper van is lessons learned, growth from the mistakes. I try not to call them mistakes, but that time I threw away that whole script and started over, but God, that second draft really had something that never would’ve been. Does that make sense? Rather than dwell in, that did not go the way I wanted. That joke bombed. My voice cracked on that song. Okay. And I lived. I always say to the kid performers I work with all the time, I’m like, “Did you live? Are you going to live if you forget your line? If the scene doesn’t go your way, are you going to live?” “Yes, Miss Mandy.”
Pete Wright:
Has any of them them ever said, “No,” and then throw themselves on the ground? That would be awesome. Alpha move.
Mandy Kaplan:
I’ve had no suicides in my teaching children’s theater. But that’s how I view it.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Okay. I think so much of this… as I’m reflecting on what you’re saying and how nice it is to hear that and to talk about celebrating the drafting of trash in order to get to the gold. And I had a writing professor in my undergrad who said, “Writing only starts in the second draft.” Get the garbage out and then you start writing.
Nikki, I want you to reflect on this for me because I think at least my lived experience of it is that there are certain things I can only do once because I fear that I’ll never be able to muster the attention to sit and really craft it a second time. And if I live with that pervasive fear that I’m going to get stuck if I try to go back, I’ll never do it again. it just becomes another thing that I’ve forgotten.
Nikki Kinzer:
Well, I think it goes back to it’s a skill that you’re practicing because for so many ADHDers, it stays at the no, but. Or it stays in the past. They’re reliving whatever situation it is that they’re thinking about. And what I like about the yes, and, is that it’s giving them the opportunity to continue going forward, maybe in a different way. So maybe that didn’t work out in the past, but it doesn’t mean that it can’t work out a different way going forward. So it keeps you forward. You don’t have to stay in the background of it.
But what you’re talking about too, I think is trust, trusting that you can do it and that it doesn’t… Trusting the fact that you can rewrite it. And it may not be very good, but then you keep rewriting it and now it’s better and better and better. Because I can tell you how many times, especially in the olden days when you didn’t save your work every 10 minutes and then something would happen and you would lose your essay or whatever.
Pete Wright:
I hate the olden days.
Nikki Kinzer:
Dating me. But it’s that feeling of, oh gosh, I have to do it again. But you do. You do it again. And like Mandy K was saying, that it can be better and better.
Pete Wright:
Well, there’s a constituent element to this whole conversation that we haven’t talked about yet. And that is the other side of yes, and. It’s something that I think ADHD makes very, very difficult. That is listening.
I’ll tell you, just as an aside, I was listening to SmartLess, a favorite podcast on my playlist, and I was listening to an old episode one with Conan O’Brien on the show. It’s just such an incredible example of four extraordinary improvisers and some of the fastest conversational energy that I’ve heard. I keep that episode marked as a favorite because it’s so good.
And as much as ADHD is stereotyped as hyperactive, particularly in media, it can actually cause some real conversational struggles, because we can get so inside our heads and it can be very difficult to listen over the voices that are in our own heads, over the things that we wish we had said 25 seconds ago, five minutes ago, whatever. We’re not listening to what’s going on right here. So in terms of conversational skill building, how do you approach listening? How do you maintain attention in a scene in a way that might help folks at parties?
Mandy Kaplan:
When you meditate that people say, if your mind wanders, that’s okay. Just bring it back. Or when you’re doing yoga, if your mind wanders, just bring it back. We have all been at a party and tuned out and thought, oh crap, what are they talking about? I missed it. But it’s okay, self-forgiveness. Just bring your mind back. Try to pick it up from context or say, “I’m so sorry, my mind wandered. What did I miss?”
It’s the self punishment that when you have failed on stage a million times, you learn to let go of, when your jokes have bombed. I don’t do standup, but people say, you learn more from bombing. So you just forgive yourself. You let your mind wander and you bring it back, without the layer of, what’s wrong with me? Why did I tune out? Why can’t I focus?
Nikki Kinzer:
That’s a really good way of putting it, because I will talk to people about focus in general. If they’re working on something and they notice their mind wanders, exactly what you said, you go back to, okay, what am I supposed to focus on right now? And with some clients, I’ll say, “Put a little sticky note on your computer that says, what am I supposed to be working on right now? So that every once in a while, when you look at it, you can see, okay, I need to go back.” So yeah, I love that. It makes total sense. If you’re in a conversation, you do the same thing.
Pete Wright:
We should make branded sticky notes that just say, come back.
Nikki Kinzer:
Come back.
Mandy Fabian:
Come back.
Mandy Kaplan:
That’s right. I’m analogizer, so when you cheat on your diet, when you have a bad day, you don’t quit the diet. You don’t punish yourself. You just say, tomorrow I’m back on my diet.
Mandy Fabian:
Oh, you don’t?
Pete Wright:
Wait, what’s this now?
Nikki Kinzer:
I was going to say, I do that a lot.
Mandy Fabian:
That’s why it’s not working.
Pete Wright:
Because that’s not how it works. For me, when I have a bad day, I’m like, well, there’s always tomorrow. I guess I’ll continue on my bad day binge. And then, oh, thank God there’s always next Monday. I guess the rest of the week is shot, so more ding dongs.
Nikki Kinzer:
Woo hoo.
Mandy Fabian:
I think there’s real value in getting comfortable with being uncomfortable too. If you have a chronic habit of this, if this is something the way that your brain works, part of the struggle is even resisting that this is how my brain works. And I think this knowledge that it’s okay. It’s okay if I spend five minutes wishing I hadn’t said that horrible. I am the queen of saying exactly the wrong thing. My husband has mastered the look of like, oh my God, did that just come out of your mouth? I don’t know why. It just pops out.
But I’ve framed it as maybe I’m God’s gift to the universe. It’s a great way to live. But maybe something I just said was supposed to be said and this person, it’s going to actually help them in some way. And that brings me to my point-
Mandy Kaplan:
Well, it’s always the right thing when it makes me laugh at you.
Mandy Fabian:
There you go. It might make somebody laugh.
Mandy Kaplan:
Silver lining.
Mandy Fabian:
And I think there’s a certain, when I’m feeling anxious or inside my head or beating myself up about things, and this is true for stage as well, in terms of the listening thing, I always go, make a room better by being in it. Be interested in other people. That really helps. The listening for me is if I can frame it with a goal, get the focus off of me, but how do I make their day better? How do I make their party experience better? How do I set them up for a great joke? I mean, I’m setting Mandy up all the time.
Mandy Kaplan:
In our case, it’s hooking up with my dad. That’s what she does.
Mandy Fabian:
He’s so handsome.
Pete Wright:
[inaudible 00:23:21] weird.
Mandy Fabian:
I can’t keep my hands off the guy. I don’t think we’re allowed to say that. Okay.
That’s another thing is, it quells my nervousness immediately when I go, oh no, it’s not about me, it’s about them. What can I learn from them? How can I be interested in them? How can I have an adventure or some fun that’s about them.
And I think that’s the other thing of seeking fun in situations. The reason comedy is so healing is because it’s fun to laugh and see the bright side of things.
Pete Wright:
Sure.
Mandy Fabian:
So you’re not only surrendering to being uncomfortable, you’re looking at there is fun to be had, and it’s a real healing device that everybody can overcome. I feel like people can overcome themselves. If you know you’re going towards something that feels fun, that’s one tool to get out of your head.
Pete Wright:
When my kids were in middle school nervous about social situations, we used to… They used to play the game where you’d walk into a place and you’d make up stories about other people that are in the room. Like, oh, I know she’s 12, but she’s also a billionaire, industrial heiress to a fortune and all that. You make up those stories. And part of the game was not just to make up the story in a way to have fun at the expense of someone else, but it’s a way to get to know someone by then using that as a way to figure out if you’re right, to break conversation in a way to say, oh, wait. You’re not an heiress, are you?
Mandy Fabian:
So they go up to a 12 year old and say, Hey, are you a millionaire?
Pete Wright:
Those kinds of things, it’s super fun. Did I see you on a yacht once?
Mandy Fabian:
I love that. I love that. Can I share? I actually had a game that I had to play with myself. I came up with the nobody gets to be mad at me game. Because for my whole life, I was always worried that everybody was mad at me all the time. I wouldn’t answer my phone because I was like, uh-oh, I’m in trouble. It wasn’t true, but I didn’t know that it wasn’t true until I gave myself, literally, I gave myself a, I think it was a week, and then maybe I extended it to three weeks. I literally just said, no, no, no. The rule for the next seven days is not one person gets to be mad at me. If they are mad at me, they can be mad at me next Tuesday, but until next Tuesday it cannot happen.
And it freed me to just sort of do this little mind trick of, right, I can answer the phone because even if you’re mad at me, you don’t get to be until next week. And what I found out every time I answered the phone was I was like, they’re not mad at me. They were calling to say hello, but I had to create a game, which I think that’s such a great way to handle these things, is if you could think of some sort of fun way to play with it, then you learn something from it.
Nikki Kinzer:
And it makes it lighter. What you’re saying just makes it a lighter situation, which I think helps. Yeah, I like that.
Mandy Kaplan:
Well, that’s why improv is based in games. There’s a reason. It’s not improv exercises or improv scenes or assignments. They are games. And once you couch it in that, it frees you up. I’m just playing a game.
Pete Wright:
Let’s talk about the countless times when you guys have been rejected in your lives as performers. It’s time to go, to dig deep into rejection.
Nikki Kinzer:
Sure. Well, and I have to say before we start this conversation, I’ve been listening to Dead Eyes, that podcast.
Mandy Fabian:
Yes.
Nikki Kinzer:
And it’s all about rejection.
Mandy Fabian:
I love that.
Nikki Kinzer:
Because you have dead eyes and Tom Hanks doesn’t love your dead eyes. So I’ve been learning a lot about this as I’ve been listening to this podcast. So I’m really interested to hear, in person, what you guys think. Because it has to be so hard to be in the entertainment industry and be so easily passed on for something that you have absolutely no control over.
Mandy Fabian:
I call it the fire hose of no. It’s a lot. And it definitely… I read a lot of books with surrender in the title. And I also read a lot of books like The Power of Fun.
Pete Wright:
Sure.
Mandy Fabian:
Because I have to remind myself that what I do is fun and rejection isn’t personal. Even though, look, there’s days when you just can’t… you’re just like, why not me? But that’s a really good practice for life. You go, okay, and then I’m going to go and have a good tantrum or cry, or however you process that overwhelming emotion of it, and then you feel better and then you’re like, well, it still feels fun to finish that screenplay. Or you get an idea to call someone. And really, it’s a microcosm kind of life. I mean, it’s a very concentrated amount of rejection that we get, but to not take it personally is the real practice.
And I think that’s true in life as well. To be able to recognize when your relatives are having a bad day or experiencing anxiety of their own, and it’s not about you. You didn’t do anything to them, or your boss. What we practice daily is trying to remember this isn’t personal. There’s a big system going on and we are producing art in and of itself, and hopefully that will fit into the system, and we do our best to make it do that, but it’s not personal. There’s so many factors that are completely out of our control that we’re not putting ourselves out there for rejection. It’s a piece of work that we have offered.
And a lot of it is luck and timing. And as long as it remains fun. To me, that’s what I have to do is keep remembering how it feels fun. Because if I’m going toward fun, I can go every day, all day.
Mandy Kaplan:
Mandy and I are famously very different in how we approach things and handle things and think about things. And I am much more, I think, pragmatic and black and white. And Mandy wants to find… Mandy’s more comfortable searching in the gray and trying to find meaning. Whereas I’m like-
Mandy Fabian:
A robot.
Mandy Kaplan:
Hey, that just didn’t go my way.
Mandy Fabian:
Kidding.
Mandy Kaplan:
No, no, no, it’s true. I don’t search for meaning, which helps me. It’s probably a protective tool I have. Picture it, 1998. Michael J. Fox and I are in a room studio testing for a role on Spin City. And the chemistry’s off the charts, everybody. He’s hilarious. I’m hilarious. Everybody, it’s a love fest. I float out of that building knowing my life is about to change. And when I got the call that they went with the other girl, I was devastated and I was crying. My friend said to me, “It’s obvious why you didn’t get it. His marriage would be over because he would have to leave his wife for you and you don’t want to break up a marriage.”
Nikki Kinzer:
The chemistry was too good.
Pete Wright:
It was too good, Mandy. Too good.
Mandy Fabian:
You’re not a home wrecker. That’s something I love about you.
Mandy Kaplan:
I’m not a home wrecker. So there was a good reason why I didn’t get that part. And then I tried to look at it long-term. Well, right around that time is when my voiceover career was getting really busy and active. And now I have this life I love doing voiceover. It happens the way it’s supposed to happen.
Even in that moment, I will cry my eyes out. I will eat a lot of Ben and Jerry’s and a lot of cheese, and generally I watch Fried Green Tomatoes for a couple weeks in a row, but then I just realize this wasn’t it. It wasn’t supposed to go this way, so it didn’t go this way. I can’t see it yet, but in a year I’ll look back and see exactly why it went that way.
Mandy Fabian:
Usually it can make you feel like there’s a lot of things that… You forget to look at the things that are going well when one rejection comes in. But I had a friend give me some great advice and she was like, “Well, what’s the gift in this?” I had a rejection, a big job that I wanted. And she was like, “But what could be the gift?” And I was like, “Well, the gift is I don’t have to miss my daughter’s dance recital. I get to spend more time. I get to go on that family vacation. I get to do this other project that I really did want to do.” So seeing the gift in it was a thing that, that’s not my go-to because you’re feeling sad, but it’s a lovely way to go, oh, that’s right. The sadness and rejection is one piece of this, but there’s a whole other… many other pieces to it.
Pete Wright:
How do you characterize the difference though, between your perspective on it now all as a gift, versus how you would’ve looked at that when you were 23?
Mandy Kaplan:
I don’t change because I don’t grow and I don’t seek. So I’m the same as I was when I was 23.
Pete Wright:
I don’t seek.
Mandy Kaplan:
I don’t.
Pete Wright:
What a weird badge of honor you carry around there.
Mandy Kaplan:
Yes, and I would say it’s about just feeling your feelings. It’s okay to cry and feel your disappointment and your regret and your sadness and your self-pity. Throw your pity party. It’s okay. I think people can get stuck in, well, what’s wrong with me and why do I feel this way? And why does this hurt so much? Because it does. It’s okay to hurt. You will move on from it. I had that perspective at 23, and I have it now, but I feel all those heartaches. I feel them.
Nikki Kinzer:
It’s that whole, this too shall pass. Just remembering that,
Mandy Kaplan:
Yes, of course.
Nikki Kinzer:
Just remembering that, it will pass. It will get better. A real life situation, that’s not around art and theater. My daughter lashed out at me and my husband yesterday. And boy, were we bad parents. I mean, you would think that we were the worst parents in the world, so unsupportive, all of these things. And she’s 17. And this is all through text because that’s how you communicate as a family now.
Mandy Kaplan:
Oh my. Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
But I texted my husband and I said, you know what? She’s not mad at us. We’re taking it. We’re getting it, but this is not about us. And I said, just let her go. Let’s not respond. And sure enough, later that night she came in and she apologized and she said, “I’m really sorry. I know I was being a butt and this is what’s bothering me.” But it was interesting to not take it personally because you can so easily go to, I am the worst parent because I missed this or whatever.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. That’s like resting parent face for me, is I’m the worst.
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, totally.
Pete Wright:
I have just broken my child.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. Oh totally. And I didn’t have a great day yesterday. And so what I decided to do was listen to your guys’ podcast while I was doing a puzzle.
Mandy Kaplan:
Yay.
Nikki Kinzer:
Because it was entertaining. Loved listening to you. And it was me doing something that was soothing my soul so that I wouldn’t be so hung up in this, oh, I’m a terrible parent. So it is, I think, actually saying that out loud. I was soothing myself. I figured out how to make this okay and I gave up work. I decided not to work because there wasn’t anything that I could really give yesterday that was going to help.
Mandy Fabian:
That’s actually really beautiful parenting, by the way.
Nikki Kinzer:
Thank you. Thank you.
Pete Wright:
So much of that, I think, for me, is, and I think you both, everybody here sort of manifests what I think I’m observing, which is, where I was when I was 23 and getting out of college was trying to figure out how I’m going to make something of myself in this business. I felt like I had to get into a system and put myself out there for judgment, with complete absence of control. That they were going to like me or hate me. I was going to do good work and they were going to judge it. And then I was going to either be successful or I was going to end up in a ditch. Those were the two. It was very binary.
At some point as I aged, I think I realized that I have control. I have agency in what I’m doing. Just like Nikki, yesterday you say you took control and backed off and went and did the puzzle. I knew that I could try to sell a podcast to Spotify or Wondery or whatever, but I could also start my own business and make the stuff that I want to make, and have control and authority and agency. And you guys make your own stuff now. And I’m wondering how much that sense of, I’m so tired of rejection and my ideas are good, feeds into your desire to create your own material.
Mandy Kaplan:
Well, Mandy, beautifully said, as long as you’re enjoying it, as long as it’s making you happy. And that’s why you create your own work. If you are creating it simply to make money or become famous, you’re missing the boat. You have to create the work because you love-
Nikki Kinzer:
That’s a good point.
Mandy Kaplan:
… doing the work. So if you absolutely hate parties, don’t go to a party. But if you often have a really good time at the party, then go on your own terms and make it fun for yourself as long as you’re not hurting anybody else.
I think that the business has changed in a beautiful way, as tough as it’s getting to become an actor or a writer or any of these things, because networks are producing less and it’s only for the chosen few. But we can create it and put it up and get it out there in the world. And if you’re doing it because you love it, not to make you famous, pressure’s off. You’ve already succeeded.
Mandy Fabian:
Talk about the ultimate yes, and. When I was 23 I was exactly the same way. I was like, must be Jennifer Aniston or die. I think I only dropped it maybe a couple of years ago. But that idea that it’s this or it’s this. And the yes, and, helps you go, wait a second, there have to be more than two choices here. And that’s what you found. You gave yourself, with a little bit of time and space, you’re like, well, I can either keep beating my head because it hasn’t been one of these two options, or I can open myself to the possibility that there’s infinite other options here and I just have to be open to it.
I never thought, I mean, I was so ambitious. I was like, oh my God, if I’m not Jennifer Aniston or make a blockbuster film, I will die. It’s like, well, guess what? No, I won’t. I’ll make some good content that I’m really proud of. And it’s that in between that I have to keep reminding myself that there’s so many other options, life is going to live you how it’s going to live you. And you can either appreciate the variety of it and go with it, or get stuck on what it’s not. And that’s where a yes, and comes in too.
Nikki Kinzer:
Beautiful stuff.
Pete Wright:
Life is going to live you.
Mandy Fabian:
Mm-hmm. It is..
Mandy Kaplan:
Is that a thing? I’ve never heard that.
Pete Wright:
I’ve never heard that either.
Mandy Fabian:
It is now.
Mandy Kaplan:
Trademarked. Trademark, Mandy Fabian MandCave trademark.
Mandy Fabian:
My book is coming out. Simon & Schuster, $10.95.
Mandy Kaplan:
What a bargain.
Pete Wright:
I’ve got to give Fabian some Pete life points here. Because in the spirit of just remembering the benefits of laughter, beyond introspection, are really important. It’s a social skill. We get it on top of helping us not take things too seriously in the world when things are hard, which ADHD folks are prone to do. Laughter fosters empathy and understanding. We know all of these things that feed our soul.
But in the spirit of resilience, being able to laugh at challenges and setbacks and grief is, I think it just gives us the strength to get through the other side of them. And in the spirit of doctor heal thyself, we’ve talked before on the show about my dad passing away, and it was a week after he’d passed away. And I was in Colorado Springs sitting in the car at the funeral home, going in to pick up his ashes. Fabian calls me and we’re just talking and sharing some personal stories. And I start telling the experience of my dad passing, when the doctor comes in to my mom and says, and my mom asks him, “Are you telling me that my husband is dying?” And the doctor says, with a complete straight face, “I’m not telling you he’s not dying.”
I said that with all seriousness, that was the story. I didn’t get it, because I was sitting in grief, that that is damn funny, seriously funny. And Mandy starts laughing hysterically on the phone, in the speaker phone in the car with me, and I suddenly got it. This is absurdist humor. This is straight up 1980s British satire. And it happened in real life. And that is a huge gift, to be able to laugh through something that was funny in a time of great grief.
That is something that I carry with me and I will forever, I guarantee it. Being able to laugh at that time was huge. I’m curious how you guys see those sorts of experiences in your own lives? How do you use your own gifts of comedy in the spirit of resilience?
Mandy Fabian:
Oh, it’s the bridge between us. I mean really? Because we’re both, well, we’re different people, but we really meet in the middle. We can always make each other laugh. And really comedy is a value that we both hold.
I mean, we were laughing at my mom’s deathbed, cracking up, laughing in a way that I’m sure everyone in the hospital thought was wildly inappropriate.
Pete Wright:
Wildly inappropriate.
Mandy Fabian:
Not consistently. We also, obviously, were in grief. We knew this is our family’s coping mechanism, that this is what we do. We make each other laugh. We try to find the fun. My mom’s motto was, the trick is to make the laughter outweigh the tears.
As a coping mechanism, that is something that I was raised with. It was hard. We had hard times. We had no money. The family was falling apart. It was rough out there, but we laughed all the time. And so that has been a boat that’s carried me through everything. It’s the thing that has kept me afloat. Hey, how about that for an analogy, man? I’m on a boat, a comedy boat.
Mandy Kaplan:
And you’re floating.
Mandy Fabian:
And I’m floating. It’s everything for me.
Mandy Kaplan:
I feel like I’m on the dinghy on the side.
Pete Wright:
Dragged along behind it.
Mandy Kaplan:
Coming after her. Come on. Wait for me.
Mandy Fabian:
No, no, you’re in the back paddling for me.
Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, okay.
This is such a strange story to share, and I don’t even know if Fabian remembers it or thinks about it, but I do sometimes. After her mom died and she was deep, deep in grief and at her house cleaning out her mom’s stuff. It’s the worst time of your life. I decided to go for a big swing and I got an inappropriate gift. And I arrived at the house and this is one of the only times Mandy has not laughed at my humor. I thought it was going to be just the funniest thing she’s ever seen and cure her grief. And she just looked at me sobbing and didn’t understand the joke and was just so deeply sad.
And I felt like a complete turd, and I put the gift in my car and then I went in and entered the grief zone with her. And I think about that sometimes. What was I thinking? How could I try to make her laugh in that moment? And I comfort myself with the idea… I’m going to cry. I was obsessed with trying to help her in any way I could. And at least she knew that. Now, maybe I did it in a very inappropriate way.
Mandy Fabian:
I don’t even remember. What was the gift? I don’t even remember. This is so crazy.
Pete Wright:
That’s like grief blindness.
Mandy Fabian:
Was it a nude photo? Was it a nude photo of you on bear skin rug?
Mandy Kaplan:
It was not dirty in any way.
Mandy Fabian:
Okay.
Mandy Kaplan:
You say bear. Mandy was always frustrated with her husband for buying her girls these giant teddy bears, and she was always trying to pawn them off on people. You want a giant teddy bear? And she kept moving them out of the house and they kept coming back in the house. So I borrowed one of the giant, giantest ones from a friend and I came over with it. I got you this. She did not think it was funny. But at least-
Mandy Fabian:
That’s funny.
Mandy Kaplan:
At least maybe later that night she could say, “Wow. Mandy was thinking of me and Mandy’s trying to be there for me.” Taking what was a horrifying moment in my life and in hers and trying to just look back on it-
Mandy Fabian:
Oh my gosh.
Mandy Kaplan:
… as a positive.
Pete Wright:
Talk about yes, anding the grief, Mandy. That’s really chef’s kiss perfect.
Mandy Fabian:
I love it. And I don’t even remember it. Isn’t that funny?
Pete Wright:
Oh my goodness.
Mandy Kaplan:
You were so grief-stricken. And I was like, tee hee hee.
Mandy Fabian:
It’s hilarious now. Oh my God.
But how great is that? That’s even another example of where you go. And that’s what I love about our podcast, actually. I tell people this all the time, is we don’t agree on a lot of things. We’re constantly, how could you not think that’s funny that you’re a monster? Or how could you like that? How’d you have a brain in your head? We’re like, “Oh my God” all the time at each other, and yet we are still dear friends and love each other deeply. There’s room in life where it doesn’t have to fit into all the boxes and be perfect all the time or feel perfect. There’s room in a friendship for someone to bring you a giant teddy bear at totally the wrong time.
Pete Wright:
Well, the worst time.
Mandy Fabian:
And here you are… and four years later laugh hysterically about it on a podcast. That’s what I love about it.
Mandy Kaplan:
When I borrowed it from a friend, she’s like, “Why do you need this?”
Mandy Fabian:
Oh my God, Mandy.
Mandy Kaplan:
My friend’s mom just died last week. This is a great idea.
Mandy Fabian:
Oh god, that’s hilarious.
Pete Wright:
I’m a professional comedian. This is going to be awesome.
Mandy Kaplan:
Trust me.
Mandy Fabian:
I love it.
Pete Wright:
I can totally read the room.
Mandy Fabian:
Oh, I love a big swing. It was on brand.
Pete Wright:
I love a big swing.
Mandy Fabian:
I love a big swing.
Pete Wright:
Oh you guys, that’s very funny. I don’t know that I have anything that can top that. I do. I am curious though, we started this conversation about yes, and, and it’s pretty tropey and it’s kind of become its own trope, in the scope of improvisational comedy, are there any other similar tropey tools that you think deserve more airtime?
I do have a favorite and I can kick us off if you’re stymied at the question just now.
Mandy Kaplan:
Please. I’m still crying.
Pete Wright:
I know. I noticed you’re in a state of your own trauma. comedy induced trauma. For me, it’s hat on a hat, putting a hat on a hat.
Mandy Fabian:
Oh, I love that.
Pete Wright:
I use that all the time and few people understand what the hell I’m talking about when I do it. The idea of, this thing was funny already and now you’re putting another funny thing on top of it too close and it’s going to render it not funny, so don’t ever put a hat on a hat. Does that ring any bells for you?
Mandy Fabian:
Oh, absolutely. I love that one. I also like the, I call it the long con. I love the patience that it takes for things.
David Letterman, this is going to date me, but I think he was hosting the Oscars and he was like, Uma, Oprah, Oprah, Uma. Uma, Oprah. And he just kept hammering it and I’m pretty sure that 95% of the nation was going, get on with it, David. My God, you’re hosting the Oscars. And I was dying laughing because I’m like, oh my God, he’s not going to drop it. That’s brilliant.
I once taught my nieces a funny character. I taught them a funny language, Ubbi Dubbi from Zoom. And then I created a character with, quite honestly, a curse word in that language, hoping that one day, years and years and years, they would learn Ubbi Dubbi and understand that the character I’ve been doing is actually a curse word, and it would all come together sometime in their twenties. And I started this when they were five. Finally when they got in their twenties, I was like, oh my God, none of you have taken the time to learn Ubbi Dubbi and I’m very upset about it. I call it the long con. You lay that groundwork and you’re just patient and you wait, and you bring it back right at the right time. Which kind of was the bear, actually, it was a long con.
Pete Wright:
The punchline was toady.
Mandy Fabian:
It was.
Mandy Kaplan:
I think back to, it’s about letting go of the control. I think back to a time when I was in an improv show and I had this idea that I thought was great and I was running it through my head, waiting for the right time. I’m going to jump in the scene and I’m going to use this idea. And I jumped in and I pushed it and it, crickets, got no reaction. The other actors were like, yes, and. They didn’t want to play. No one thought this was a good idea. But because I had made it absolute in my head, I saw it succeeding, I kept pushing it. Luckily this was on TV, so it’s out there for everyone to see. It’s embarrassing watching me die a slow death on the stage knowing no it’s going for it so I’m going to do it even more.
It’s about letting go of control and just saying, okay, didn’t go as planned. I’m going to take another turn and try a different thing right away. Letting it go. Let go of the control. Nothing is ever going to go as you practiced it, planned it, rehearsed it. Life doesn’t work that way, being a performer doesn’t work that way. Just accept the now, which is, oh no one’s laughing, and shove that bear back in your car fast and just and make [inaudible 00:51:36].
Pete Wright:
No, it’s just my carpool buddy.
Mandy Fabian:
Oh my God.
Pete Wright:
So I can drive in the HOV lane.
Mandy Kaplan:
Right.
Pete Wright:
It’s not a terrible, terribly misguided joke on the eve of your mother’s death.
Mandy Fabian:
Oh my God. Hey, I do have another tip that, I don’t know, this could be a metaphor for life as well, but it always happens to me before comedy shows. Always leave time to poop before the show. Because for whatever reason, five minutes before the show, it’s going to happen. It is everybody leaves the building and you got… and not every time, but I’m just saying you need to be prepared for that maybe happening. So that’s another one.
Pete Wright:
metaphor for life, always poop before the show.
Mandy Fabian:
Always leave time-
Pete Wright:
I’m going to put that, always going to put that on a shirt, is what I’m going to do.
Mandy Kaplan:
Even before a podcast. It doesn’t have to be a comedy show.
Pete Wright:
It’s the pre podcast poop. No, it has to be anything.
Mandy Kaplan:
Leave room to poop before you go on a podcast.
Pete Wright:
Pre meeting poop. I’m so glad we brought this all back around to some sort of gastrointestinal tag.
Mandy Kaplan:
Of course.
Pete Wright:
You guys are the best. Thank you so much for hanging out and teaching us some things. Your worldview is wonderful and funny. Who wants dibs on talking about the podcast?
Mandy Fabian:
Oh, well guys, it is one of my favorite things in the world. Our podcast is the MandCave, as we said, hosted by two Mandy’s with nothing in common except their first name, as you’ve heard on this podcast. We talk about movies and books and argue and have fun and just, it’s really a good time. So please do come check us out on the MandCave.
Nikki Kinzer:
And how do you guys know each other?
Mandy Kaplan:
Well the voiceover world back in New York City. People were saying, “Oh wait, you’re not Mandy,” her maiden name is Steckelberg. “Oh, you’re a different Mandy.” And it was like, well, who is this other Mandy? I must know her. And we met and it was pretty much instant love. I can still picture our first sushi lunch, where we were and what we had.
Mandy Fabian:
It was great. It was really great. But then she moved to Los Angeles and left me in New York there and I followed her out and that is when it really kicked into high gear.
Mandy Kaplan:
Restraining order be damned. She followed.
Mandy Fabian:
No, because, it was interesting. In a classic Kaplan way, we sat down and about five minutes into that lunch, she was like, “So what’s going on? What’s going on in your personal life? How are you?”
Mandy Kaplan:
Your soul seemed sad. I wanted to get into it.
Mandy Fabian:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
With your big bear in the car just waiting.
Mandy Fabian:
Oh my God. She was asking all sorts of direct, inappropriate questions for my Protestant… We don’t talk about things like that in my family. And it was amazing. That is really when the bridge was formed and we’ve been partners ever since.
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, that’s great.
Pete Wright:
Well, and we talked about the MandCave and I will put links into that and I tagged both of your upcoming, both of your movies right now, Jess Plus None, upcoming, 30 Nights is Amazing and is already out and go see it. Anything else immediately that you want to plug before we sign off?
Mandy Kaplan:
Well, my cabaret, Miscast: Right Singer, Wrong Song, which I do every three months in Los Angeles in North Hollywood, is coming up on Sunday, May 7th. Tickets are on Eventbrite and Mandy Fabian is performing in it, as am I. And it’s always a ton of fun. It’s all for charity for a wonderful organization called Project Angel Food. Miscast was born when I was suffering from postpartum and I needed to find a way to cope with, well now I can’t sing and dance anymore because I have this kid. That is my ultimate plan B. I found a way to do musical theater on my terms in a way that I love, that makes people laugh and raises money for charity.
Pete Wright:
Perfect.
Mandy Kaplan:
Beep beep.
Pete Wright:
Beep beep. Well done you guys. Thank you so, so, so much.
Mandy Fabian:
Thank you for having us. This was great.
Pete Wright:
Oh, such a fun conversation. Thank you everybody for hanging out with us and downloading and listening to the show. We sure appreciate your time and your attention. Don’t forget, if you have something to contribute to the conversation, we’re going to head over to the Show Talk Channel in our Discord server and you can join us right there by becoming a supporting member at the deluxe level.
On behalf of Mandy Kaplan and Mandy Fabian and Nikki Kinzer, I’m Pete Wright and we’ll catch you next week right here, on Taking Control, the ADHD podcast.
