Pete Wright:
Hello, everybody, and welcome to Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast on TruStory FM. I’m Pete Wright, and I’m here with Nikki Kinzer.

Nikki Kinzer:
Hello, everyone, and hello, Pete Wright.

Pete Wright:
Hello, Nikki.

Nikki Kinzer:
Hello.

Pete Wright:
You know, if you missed the member opening chat, you missed a real doozy. Especially if you’re a Star Wars fan. I don’t necessarily need to talk anymore about that. Just become a member, join us on our Patreon so that you can hear Nikki talk with such enthusiasm and expertise about her experience in Disney just this last weekend.

Nikki Kinzer:
In Disneyland.

Pete Wright:
It is a joyful conversation, and I’m so glad.

Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, I’m such a disappointment for so many.

Pete Wright:
I’m so glad you were able to do it. I have a selfie from you that actually gives me proof of life that you were there.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, with the lady, with the lady that was behind me.

Pete Wright:
And it doesn’t appear to be photoshopped.

That was Rey, okay? Let’s get it right.

Nikki Kinzer:
Okay.

Pete Wright:
It was Rey.

Okay, you’re wonderful. I’m glad you’re back. And this is the first episode of our new season, season 33.

Nikki Kinzer:
Wow.

Pete Wright:
33. Here we are. And we are going to be talking about, oh my gosh. Well, we’re going to be talking about the gap trap, which we actually talked about last season, early last season.

Nikki Kinzer:
Right.

Pete Wright:
And you literally said in that episode, trademark that, which we did not do, but we are going to talk about it again. So that’s where we are.

Nikki Kinzer:
And what exactly did I want trademarked? The gap trap?

Pete Wright:
The gap trap.

Nikki Kinzer:
The actual gap trap.

Pete Wright:
Yeah, the words, the gap trap.

Nikki Kinzer:
Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I like that.

Pete Wright:
Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer:
Let’s trademark it.

Pete Wright:
Yeah. No, it’s good. I still think we should trademark it.

Nikki Kinzer:
Let’s do it.

Pete Wright:
I don’t know what it even is, but it should be trademarked.

Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, we’ll talk about it. Yeah.

Pete Wright:
So before we get into the gap trap, TM almost, we’ve got to talk to you about the Patreon community, because if you are a regular listener, if you’ve been listening or bingeing over the course of the summer, this might be your next move. Members get early ad-free access to every episode, access to members-only channels on our Discord, and a seat in the live stream recording of the show, where you can ask questions directly to us and our guests and chat along as we record. And we’re throwing in special events and things along the way as well.

But honestly, the thing we hear most people talk about when they talk about the community is the people all living with ADHD who show up for each other in a really, really special way. If you have ever wanted to become more than just a listener, this is where it happens. Just visit patreon.com/theadhdpodcast, patreon.com/theadhdpodcast, to learn more and join us. And if you’re not ready to do that, that’s fine too. You can find us at takecontroladhd.com, connect with us on the socials, join our Discord, and sign up for the weekly email newsletter. We would love to have you wherever you land.

Okay, Nikki, this conversation is essentially the spiritual part two from our conversation around letting go of the “this year will be different” story.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yes, absolutely. And it’s also inspiration from a Coaching with Nikki session that we had over the summer, and we were talking about getting that momentum again and how to start again when shame shows up. And when I brought this to our team to talk about, and then we were talking about the gap trap, we were like, oh my gosh, this is kind of the same thing. It’s like, how do we deal with this time is going to be different? And then how do we get started again when that shame shows up and it’s really hard to get started again? So that’s what we’re going to talk about. And I feel like we kind of named it last season.

We talked about it. And today we’re going to talk about how do we kind of live in that space.

Pete Wright:
So let’s start by defining the gap. What is the gap, and why do we get stuck in it?

Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. So it is that space between where you are right now and what you think you should be doing, the version of the should-be that you’re chasing, right? Everybody else is doing this. I should be doing this. There may be a they out there, or maybe not. It could be an internal thing of just, this is what I think should be. So the gap isn’t the problem. It’s the shame that grows inside of living in that gap, right?

So I think that when we talked about this in the first round, we were probably more talking around New Year’s resolutions, because it would have been around that time. And we always feel like, oh, this year’s going to be different. This is going to be a new start, a new Monday, a new year, we’re going to work on everything. Not just one thing, but everything needs to be worked on. Everything is important. Everything is urgent. I need to do it all. And what’s so unfortunate about that is that we’ve been saying that for years. The same resolutions have been in front of us year after year.

And we hold on to that hope because hope is important. We want hope. But it also comes into, I’m going to buy a new planner, I’m going to start a new task manager, I’m going to download this app that Pete was talking about, because if Pete’s doing it, it’s got to be fantastic. Or this new organizing bin that I heard about or saw on TikTok. I went to Disneyland with my sister, and she was telling me about TikTok and all these things that she was buying from TikTok. I’m like, what do you buy from TikTok?

Pete Wright:
Oh God, that’s tough.

Nikki Kinzer:
Because I’m not on TikTok, so I don’t understand. But she was showing me all these gadgets and things, so that could be a thing, right? So all of these are examples of really hoping that this time’s going to be different, and you’re living in that gap of where I am and where I want to be, or feel like I should be.

Pete Wright:
I think that gap is really fascinating, because the gap is where, when you talk about buying things on TikTok and the apps and things like that, that’s where those behaviors show up insidiously or maladaptively. Because generally I’m taking on new projects, new things to learn, new things to try, because I’m masking. Right? The fact that I’m not doing the thing that I really should be doing, which is, during the gap, becoming a clogging task. It’s a thing that’s just building up pressure behind it. And that pressure is what turns into the shame, right? So there’s like a flow mechanic. It’s really more plumbing than anything else, right?

Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, right.

Pete Wright:
It’s like a pipe that is getting clogged, because I have not paid attention to it and I’m not approaching it.

Generally I find I’m not approaching it courageously. Right? And that word has been creeping up for me recently, just because I’m at sort of peak overwhelmed with all the stuff we’ve got going on here at the house, and construction and reconstruction, and all of this stuff is compounding on the other activities. And I’m finding that I’m spending a lot of time in that space thinking about, processing. And there’s a time for processing and a time for action. And when I’m stuck in the gap, it’s hard to turn that valve back on for courage to approach the thing that I’m scared of or struggling with, the project that feels just too overwhelming to take on, and I’m stuck.

Nikki Kinzer:
Well, and I think that for a lot of folks, it’s stuck because you’re blaming yourself, because it becomes this like character flaw. It’s not just a pattern or clogging task, as you say. It’s like this, I’m the problem, you know?

Pete Wright:
Yeah, yeah.

Nikki Kinzer:
And so…

Pete Wright:
Because I’m living, I am too what? Too afraid, too challenged, too compromised with ADHD to be able to do the thing that needs doing.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, yeah.

Pete Wright:
Which is, and I’ll say it again, not true. How many times in my life have I proven over years that it’s not true?

Nikki Kinzer:
No.

Right, right.

Pete Wright:
But man, when you’re in the gap, that’s the trap. You start believing that’s true.

Nikki Kinzer:
That’s the trap. Yeah, right. Absolutely. Well, and I think that when you’re emotionally frozen like that, it’s important to understand that it’s not a character flaw. It’s not that you’re lazy or don’t care. It is actually, going back to what we were talking about with Tamara Rosier last season, a nervous system response. Your body is shutting down, but not by choice. It’s that frozen, you know, you’re the deer in the headlights. And the black and white thinking becomes so loud with ADHD in this situation too, because when you’re stuck like that, you feel like there are no options.

I’m going to stay this way. Even though, like you said, it’s not true, because you don’t stay that way. You don’t stay that way, but it feels like you are. So if it’s not enough time, I can’t do it. If it’s not going to be perfect, I’m not going to do it. I already messed up, I’m going to keep messing up. I already missed using the planner for a week. It’s done. And so I think that one of the things that we do, that we’ve talked a lot about trying to get you unfrozen, defrost is what I’d like to say.

Let’s get you defrosted.

Pete Wright:
It’s good. I like it. Defrost.

Nikki Kinzer:
Let’s trademark that too, as we’re going through our trademarking.

Pete Wright:
Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer:
Might as well. But let’s go back to, can you visit something? Can you visit? The question becomes, what does a visit mean to you? What does showing up mean to you? And courage has been on your mind, showing up has been on my mind. Because what does that mean, to show up? And I’m curious, and we can talk a little bit about what that means for us. But Pete, what does that mean to you when I ask you, can you show up for this? Or what does it mean for you to show up?

Pete Wright:
Yeah. Well, at the cost of being a bit repetitive, I think showing up means being able to be present in a space of discomfort, right? Being able to be present in a space where I know I’ve spent the last hours, days, weeks in a state of freeze or paralysis or fear. Showing up means I don’t have to do anything, but I do have to face it. Right? I do have to sit there and process, sometimes out loud. This is a hard thing. I know it’s hard, but I also know deep down I’m capable of moving this forward. And the fear is genuinely not real.

Most of the time there’s a solution, a human solution that people have figured out long before me, and people will continue to figure out when I’m food for worms. It is just a state in time. And that presence allows me to embrace and defuse the fear, right? To turn that valve again and start the energy flowing.

Nikki Kinzer:
Mm-hmm.

Pete Wright:
How about you?

Nikki Kinzer:
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love the description of being present, because I think that’s definitely one for me. Showing up is being present in the moment. And I also go back to the visit. I think that whatever that visit looks like is me showing up. So if it’s just opening up a Google Doc to start something that I’m working on, or, we do a lot of work on Canva, so if I’m opening up Canva just to start something, just to visit it, just to save, copy and rename a new file, that could be a little bit of a visit. I think that’s showing up, being in it just a little bit, and leaning into that discomfort.

In GPS, our planning membership, I think showing up a lot of times is literally just showing up to the sessions. You don’t have to do any planning. You can just body double, or you can just be there. But that’s showing up, because you’re in community, right?

Pete Wright:
Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer:
And there’s no expectation.

Pete Wright:
Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer:
So with any kind of community, just being able to show up and be there and listen, or whatever it is that you may need at the time. But there’s not a lot of expectations.

Pete Wright:
Whatever it is you may need at the time.

Nikki Kinzer:
I think that that’s…

Pete Wright:
Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer:
…the thing.

Pete Wright:
Yeah, I think you hit something there. That whatever it is you need at the time, that’s part of the reason that it is perplexing. That’s part of the reason that getting the flow of courage started is so challenging. Because when you’re in the gap trap, it’s hard to figure out what it is that you need to move things forward. It’s so highly circumstantial, right? Context is everything.

Nikki Kinzer:
Well, and shame stops you from showing up.

Pete Wright:
And so…

Yes, yeah.

Nikki Kinzer:
And so how do we break that, right?

Pete Wright:
Right.

Nikki Kinzer:
Like, how do we get… and I think it is leaning into that uncomfortableness.

Pete Wright:
Mm-hmm.

Nikki Kinzer:
Is that, okay, this is going to be uncomfortable and I may feel like I’m going to be judged, which is not true in an ADHD community.

Pete Wright:
Yeah. Well, and look at how easy it is for us to say, I…

Nikki Kinzer:
Right? So…

Pete Wright:
I don’t know. Right? Becomes the hardest thing for us to say to get through the other side of this thing.

Nikki Kinzer:
Mm-hmm.

Pete Wright:
I don’t know how to do this next thing. The reason we’re stuck often is because we believe we should know how to do this thing. We are cemented in this ideology that we are adults and need to know how to do these things. And so the shame is setting an unreasonable expectation of experience that we do not have. And that’s the kind of thing that we end up having to just free ourselves of the burden of, and say, I don’t know how to do this.

I’ve never done this before. I’m going to have to learn something new, even though I’m a grown-up and maybe I have been carrying this baggage that says I should already know how to do this. I don’t know how to do this. I’ve never faced it. And I have to be open to saying I don’t know. And maybe I don’t know.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.

Pete Wright:
And I’m a little bit afraid of the consequences because I’ve never been through it before. This goes back to, you’ve got to watch, I think it’s the first or second episode of season two of Limitless with Chris Hemsworth on the National Geographic channel, because that’s the one where he takes on pain. Did I tell you about this already?

Nikki Kinzer:
I think so.

Pete Wright:
I may have.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, but go ahead.

Pete Wright:
Just a refresher. So he is trying to figure out how to face all these things that he doesn’t know how to face. And Chris Hemsworth is Thor, for crying out loud.

Nikki Kinzer:
Mm-hmm.

Pete Wright:
He’s a big muscle-bound god, which is what he’s known for most. And here he is seeing this world through the eyes of the stuff that he’s afraid of. And one of the things that he’s afraid of is just physical pain. And so they take him through this exercise where they start applying pain to him in the form of shock. Like literally they hook up electrodes to his abdomen and shock him. And over the course of the episode, they move from shocking him and having him say, that’s the most painful thing I’ve ever felt, at level two, to him sitting around a table with his friends and shocking himself at like level 13, which should by all rights be debilitating, and him laughing about it.

Nikki Kinzer:
Wow.

Pete Wright:
Right? Because once you experience the discomfort, once you allow yourself to lean in and embrace the discomfort, you’ve done it before and you know it’s not as bad as you thought it was.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, right.

Pete Wright:
It was the expectation of how terrible it was in the first place that kept you from feeling like you could accomplish it. And I think that’s a thing. Like, God, a middle-aged guy right here, still looking dead in the eyes of the stuff that causes me fear.

Nikki Kinzer:
Right, right.

Pete Wright:
Straight up fear. And here we are. Here we are.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.

Pete Wright:
We’re all dealing with it.

And the sooner we can look it in the eye and say, I’m not, I’m not afraid.

Nikki Kinzer:
Mm-hmm.

Pete Wright:
I just don’t know. The sooner we’re able to get to the other side of some of the things that are really standing in our way. Rant over.

Nikki Kinzer:
I love it. It’s a good rant.

Pete Wright:
All right.

Nikki Kinzer:
All right. So we don’t like to leave the podcast without having a little something to try, right? Like…

Pete Wright:
Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer:
We want to give the listeners something like, what do I do with this information? And so here are some things that we want you to think about, on how to close this gap for you in a moment. Not always, not forever, not in a month, but just in one little single moment, what can you do to help close that gap?

Pete Wright:
Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer:
And I think that the first question is really, what do you need right now? But after your rant, I kind of want to say that’s not the first question.

Maybe that’s the second question. I think the first question really is, what are you afraid of?

Pete Wright:
Yeah, that’s the question, yeah.

Nikki Kinzer:
I think after listening to you, I think that’s really what it is. What am I afraid of? And really getting to the core of what’s happening here. And then ask, what do you need right now? And if you don’t know, that’s okay. Because I think that there’s a lot of expectation of, well, what if I don’t know what I need right now? I know what I’m afraid of, but what if I don’t know what I need, right?

Pete Wright:
That’s the thing we’re scared of. And maybe I’m just afraid because I don’t know.

Nikki Kinzer:
All right. Right.

Pete Wright:
Maybe that’s it.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.

Yeah. And then I would say this is where self-compassion is so important, right? Because we are so easy to beat ourselves up. So my thought would be, what would you say to a friend in this situation? How can you hold yourself with the same kind of care that you would give someone else? And it’s hard, and it’s not always going to be consistent, but when you can do that, it feels really good, because then you feel like you can see the light at the end of the tunnel. You can see that there’s a visit in there somewhere. You can see that with some community or some help or some resource, oh, all of a sudden what I need right now starts to kind of come to light, because I’m holding myself in a nice gentle way.

And I think that’s really important.

Pete Wright:
Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer:
Um…

Pete Wright:
…deeply enthusiastic about it, and I think everybody needs to hear this quote. This is one Jacques just posted. It’s the quote falsely attributed to Winston Churchill, and sometimes Lincoln. All right, so attribution is not what we’re going for here. The quote is, success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm. Oh my God, that’s exactly it. I don’t care who said it.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.

Pete Wright:
That is the marching order. What can you do today that you don’t know how to do, that doesn’t paralyze you from fear, but allows you to say, I don’t know, and still get up and move on?

Nikki Kinzer:
Right, right.

Pete Wright:
Holy cow, that’s the whole job.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yes, yeah, I love that. Hey, guess what?

Pete Wright:
Chicken butt.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, I was going to say, you’re like, what, five?

Pete Wright:
Sorry, for a minute I was a parent to four-year-olds.

Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer:
No, guess what? We have a download for this episode.

Pete Wright:
No, we don’t.

Nikki Kinzer:
We do, because it’s the first episode of the season and we just started doing downloads last season.

Pete Wright:
No, we don’t. That’s crazy.

Nikki Kinzer:
So we had to start this one with a new download. And I love it. When You Feel Frozen: A Guide to Restarting Without Shame.

Pete Wright:
Okay, walk me through that, because some of that is what we’ve been talking about. But the idea of restarting, I know it was the restarting part that was the subject of the Coaching with Nikki session that was so profound. So walk through what that means.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yes, because this is how I linked them together. So, when you feel frozen. We talked a lot today about what’s happening when you’re frozen. So what this download is going to do for you is, it’s giving you some reflection questions. I’m not going to tell you what they are because I want you to download it. But it’s going to give you some reflection questions. And the thing about reflection questions that I think are really important is that we don’t do them on our own. One, we don’t even know what to ask ourselves, usually, right?

And then we don’t take the time to really think about how are things going. Like, what am I reflecting on? So this is going to give you some actual questions, very zeroed in on everything that we’re talking about. What does showing up mean? Where does your black and white thinking come up? These things to really start thinking about how this affects you personally. And then I’ve got some little roadblocks, common things that come up, and then some ideas on how to reframe them. Because one thing I’ve learned is that clients, folks with ADHD, they like examples. They like to know, how does this work in somebody else’s life?

How can I actually do this? And that’s what this is.

Pete Wright:
For sure.

Nikki Kinzer:
It’s examples.

Pete Wright:
For sure.

Nikki Kinzer:
It’s giving you some examples.

Pete Wright:
I love it.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.

Pete Wright:
I love it. That’s great. That’s great. I think anything that gives me a sort of flow to walk through when I’m feeling that frozen fear is incredibly useful.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yes.

Pete Wright:
Just tape it up above the computer.

Nikki Kinzer:
Absolutely.

Pete Wright:
Yeah, that’s great.

Nikki Kinzer:
Absolutely.

Pete Wright:
So that is going to be in the show notes.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yes.

Pete Wright:
It’s on the website. Just click through, you’ll find a link. You can download that thing. And we would love you to join us in Discord if you want to talk through your gap trap process and pattern. What do you use to get through it? Come on over to the community and share.

Nikki Kinzer:
Absolutely.

Pete Wright:
Did you want to talk about Accountability Anchor?

Nikki Kinzer:
Well, I put this in the notes because I just think it’s important that our community knows that part of being a Patreon member is, we do have these Accountability Anchor rooms, and they’re filled all the time. I mean, we have people that are constantly body doubling. And when we talk about visits, when we talk about how to show up again, especially when you have gone through a shame spiral, it’s so good to show up with a community of people that get it, that understand you, that are right there with you. And that’s why I wanted to mention it, is that they’re available, they’re here. And I just want people to know about them, that if you need a low-pressure place to kind of practice that showing up, practicing that visiting in real time, we’ve got a place for you.

Pete Wright:
Perfect. And let me just add, as a final coda to that fantastic quote, thank you, Discord mom. Just in case anyone like me was wondering who actually was quoted instead of Churchill or Lincoln. I got this from a quick search. Researchers like Quote Investigator have traced similar sentiments back to mid-20th century self-help and motivational literature, but the exact wording remains uncredited to any specific named individual. How do you not take credit for that? Of course they have to give it to Churchill or Lincoln, because somebody needs to have said it.

Nikki Kinzer:
Right, right, yeah.

Pete Wright:
We as humans need that tied up in a bow.

I mean, for crying out loud, I’m going to start crediting you or Jacques.

Nikki Kinzer:
I would credit Jacques.

Pete Wright:
I’m going to start crediting Jacques. Yeah. Jacques, my friend Jacques said, and see if we can get that to become canon.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.

Pete Wright:
No, that’s awful. Why would we do that? But I will say those are some fantastic words, and man, I’m going to be thinking about it.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yes. Absolutely.

Pete Wright:
So, not with a lack of enthusiasm, for sure. Thank you, everybody, for hanging out with us today.

This first episode of the new season, we appreciate you downloading and listening to the show. Thank you for your time and your attention. Don’t forget, if you have something to contribute to the conversation, we’re heading over to the Show Talk channel in our Discord server, and you can join us right there by becoming a supporting member in the Deluxe level or better. On behalf of Nikki Kinzer, I’m Pete Wright, and we’ll see you right back here next week on Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast.