Retake: Horror Debuts • Member Bonus

***This transcript is produced using transcription software and reviewed for quality. Despite our best efforts, some passages may be incomplete or contain errors due to audio quality or software limitations.***

Pete Wright:
Pledge drive. Can we call it that? Can we call it that, Andy?

Andy Nelson:
It is. We’re just like NPR, really — so, yes, we can absolutely call it pledge drive. You’re probably wondering, what is this doing in my feed, I don’t know what this is. Welcome to a member bonus episode. This is our Horror Debuts Retake, that we do for members after we finish a series. Members only get it, but because we’re here, as Pete said, doing our pledge drive, we wanna give it to you so you can get a little taste of what you get when you sign up to be a member for The Next Reel.

Pete Wright:
I really like this show. It’s still coming together, the Retake, but I really like taking the opportunity with you to sit back and integrate the things that we’ve learned and talked about. And as you’ll hear in the show, opinions change over the course of so many movies in this gargantuan series, and it’s fun to explore and let our opinions be shifted by one another, and mostly by the whims of Letterboxd and Flickchart, as we get that done. So thank you for hanging out, for giving this one a shot. And if you like it, if it’s something you’d like to hear more of, it is a member episode — so head over to TruStory.fm/TNRmembership, become a member today, support this show and all of the shows that we do by way of The Next Reel. It keeps the engine churning — your support keeps the engine churning, and without it we have to make harder decisions, and that stinks. So please give us a shot, become a member, and take a look at all the fantastic bonus episodes coming this year.

Andy Nelson:
Enjoy it, everybody. Thanks. That was perfect. Let’s try for one more.

Pete Wright:
Happy Retake day, Andy. It is the hallowed day, the hallowed season—

Andy Nelson:
—most wonderful—

Pete Wright:
—time. Sometimes you take, and sometimes you take again — and that’s what we are here to celebrate, as we talk about our Horror Debuts series, and it’s one bonus episode that this time has already gone out.

Andy Nelson:
Indeed, indeed, it did go — people will have had a chance to listen to it. And I’m just excited to talk about all these wonderful horror movies all over again. This was a great series, I really enjoyed it.

Pete Wright:
I did too. And it has — I don’t know why you make fun of me for this, but I call this a long series, and it’s kind of long, it’s like seven movies — that’s a thing. Six movies. That’s on the longest side.

Andy Nelson:
Six movies.

Pete Wright:
No, Relic is in there.

Andy Nelson:
But you can’t count the member bonus in the actual series.

Pete Wright:
Count the member bonus, because this is a member bonus — it’s all part and parcel of the same thing.

Andy Nelson:
Yes, well, in context of the whole thing, sure, it’s one more than our last series. So — woo, you are such a rule follower, so long — like, I need you to broaden your thinking just a smidge. Look, I feel like it was — it was long.

Pete Wright:
There were some really great movies. And I think when I look at my overall rating of each of the films, and my overall stance — let me just say, let the record show, we’re talking about Messiah of Evil, Goodnight Mommy, A Girl Walks Home Alone at Night, The Babadook, Relic (that member bonus episode that Andy seems to wanna disregard, even though it was objectively the best movie of the entire series), The Lure, and Saint Maud. That is the set we’re talking about. And when I look at my overall rate, I had a great time with almost all of them. And I think when I look at my overall rating, my stars and hearts, I’ve been challenged on one pair of these movies in terms of how they hit me, and that is between The Babadook and Relic. And mostly it’s because our community member, Brian Blake, won’t let me forget it. So I’ve been thinking a lot about it, because his question to me was, I just don’t see the difference between Relic at five stars and a heart and the Babadook at three stars and a heart — I get that I like Relic more, but was Babadook really two whole stars less good than Relic? We watched them back to back, and you could say they have a very similar sort of structure, in terms of how the films use metaphor to tell the story. One is dealing deeply with grief and loss, and one is dealing with grief—

Andy Nelson:
—and loss.

Pete Wright:
—with aging and dementia and Alzheimer’s. Also, and loss, right, good point, thank you. So what is it between those two movies that makes that separation so stark for me? And I was initially hanging my head on the performative aspects of the movie, that I just like the people better in Relic — I like the relationships of those three women, I like the way they work together on screen. But I don’t think I can levy that as a complaint against the Babadook. And I was already on the record as saying I liked the kid more than you did — I don’t even remember what your rating was on that, what did you give Babadook?

Andy Nelson:
We both gave the Babadook three stars.

Pete Wright:
Okay.

Andy Nelson:
Three stars and hearts. So we both said — and this was coming up for me, because when I first watched it, I gave it two stars and a heart. For me, with The Babadook, I struggle with buying into the story of the mom and son. It’s been seven years since this accident with her husband, and nobody has talked to her about getting a counselor, and her son is a mess, and yet nobody does anything, other than her sister saying, my daughter doesn’t want to have your son over for her birthday party, it’s a princess party. And then she still lets him come over. So it’s just one of those things where I struggle — I know people are like this, it’s not like telling a story about completely unbelievable circumstances, but in context of me getting into that particular film, I really had a hard time with the way the story presented the mother and son at this particular point. And I really feel it probably is just because they needed a kid who at least had a few years on him who could perform — trying to do this with a two-year-old would have been nigh impossible.

Pete Wright:
You say nigh?

Andy Nelson:
Yeah, I’m trying to bring it back. What do you think?

Pete Wright:
So fancy.

Andy Nelson:
I know.

Pete Wright:
So fancy, you know—

Andy Nelson:
—throw them out—

Pete Wright:
—should be called on those things, I’m gonna be that one—

Andy Nelson:
—that person for you. Okay, so that’s where my frustrations with The Babadook are — I have a hard time connecting with the characters in the story. I appreciate what the filmmakers are doing, and the journey they put us on, and the way they portray the grief over the loss of the husband as this creature they have to deal with, I think that’s very interesting. I just really struggle with those characters. And, like you said, the characters for me in Relic — I really connected 100% all the way through with mother, daughter, and grandmother, those characters were so well fleshed out and so easy to connect to, that I found that journey a much more satisfying one.

Pete Wright:
Yeah, me too. So now I compare that to my rating on The Lure, which is four stars and a heart, and Messiah of Evil, or even Goodnight Mommy — so Messiah of Evil, I gave three stars and a heart. Goodnight Mommy, three and a half stars. Now, on reflection, having had several weeks to think about this, I don’t think Goodnight Mommy is telling a story that is as strong as the Babadook — I don’t think the resulting reward at the end of Goodnight Mommy is as strong as the story of this woman coming to terms with her grief and loss in the form of this basement demon that she feeds worms. I really liked that reveal in the Babadook, and that’s why it ended up three stars and a heart. But it’s hard for me to look at Goodnight Mommy, which, on reflection, now several weeks later, is not as good a movie as many of the movies we’ve seen since. I did not like it as much, and I certainly haven’t talked about it as much. And I talk about Messiah of Evil to people almost more as a cultist kind of knockoff joke — again, it doesn’t hold up as a movie that is as serious to me as Girl Walks, Babadook, Relic, the movies we watched in the back end of the series.

Andy Nelson:
I don’t know what to really say about that, other than I think Goodnight Mommy — I prefer that to The Babadook, and I would absolutely put it on — really? Babadook. Yeah, I just think it’s a more interesting film. And I think part of what you’re looking at is maybe the fact that you appreciate that The Babadook has this metaphorical element it’s also dealing with, because Goodnight Mommy doesn’t — it’s just kind of a straight-up horror film, which is great, and it doesn’t have to have a metaphor for me to enjoy the film. And I certainly prefer what they’re doing in Goodnight Mommy, and the way that story unfolds, and the characters — I find it very interesting and haunting, a very haunting film of kids, again, kind of dealing with — or of a kid really dealing with grief as he’s going through this issue, and to a certain extent his mom’s dealing with grief in her own way as well. And I find that much more satisfying, in the realm of a kind of psychological horror film, than The Babadook, which makes me really work to connect with those characters.

Pete Wright:
Yeah, yeah, I can see that. The whole idea of now watching many of these movies — some of them deal heavily in metaphor, and some of them truck in it much more lightly, or much less literally — I find really interesting, because I am more attracted to the movies that give us that sort of metaphorical lesson at the end, I like those rather than the straight-up horror. The straight-up horror works best to me when it’s cheeky, when it’s freaky — which was fair, but, like, Happy Death Day, that series I liked quite a lot. I guess I tend to prefer horror comedies, and heavy horror when it has this sort of deeper metaphorical insight, right, lessons learned. And it really comes down to movies I’d recommend to my mother, because I have recommended only two movies out of this series to my mother, and those are Relic and Babadook. So I found those more challenging, more pleasantly challenging to me.

Andy Nelson:
Interesting. I mean, to your point about Messiah of Evil, that is a very interesting film to look at and kick us off—

Pete Wright:
—with.

Andy Nelson:
And I think a lot of that film, the way we end up looking at it, is through the lens of a film that was taken away from its filmmakers and cut based on the producers just wanting to get something out there. But to that end, I still think there’s a lot there, and it’s a very interesting, just very creepy film, with a lot of haunting moments, and it ends up—

Pete Wright:
—and it’s great looking.

Andy Nelson:
Yeah, great looking.

Pete Wright:
Great looking.

Andy Nelson:
Very creative — the story is a little bit of a mess, but in a weird way it does kind of work for the film, and that certainly has elements that make me want to return to it. It’s got a presence to it that I do really like. So when I look at this entire series, I ended up really enjoying all of the films quite a bit — I don’t feel like we had any duds, I think we had a lot of interesting stories to talk about, some certainly more metaphorical than others, but on the whole, it’s a good run.

Pete Wright:
Yeah, I think if there was a low point for me, it was Saint Maud — I liked that the least, but not because of the way it handled horror, because of the way it handled story. They milked my root beer. That sounds pornographic. I didn’t mean it that way — they gave me milk.

Andy Nelson:
That definitely sounds like something. You know what would be worse is if they buttermilked your milk.

Pete Wright:
Buttermilked my milk — that’s what they did.

Andy Nelson:
So now here’s a question though — in the context of these films we ended up watching, there was an interesting journey — well, maybe it’s not that interesting, but we had one film in the seventies, the bulk of these were in the 2010s, with only Relic actually coming out in 2020. So a lot of the films were very recent. To a certain extent, what was the scare factor in these? We didn’t look at something like a straight-up slasher horror or something like that — it was a very different type of horror we had in all of these. Do you have a sense of what we were getting out of, quote, horror movies in this series?

Pete Wright:
Well, how many of these did we come to together and say, well, this wasn’t really a horror movie? I feel like there was a solid creep factor in Relic for sure — it was much more sort of haunting and compressing, but not gore violence by any stretch. Goodnight Mommy does have some of those elements at the end, but it’s much more a horror story about terrible parenting and dealing with the boy. I feel like they were all pretty gentle on the horror front, don’t you? I didn’t feel like, beyond Relic, which made me unsettled while watching it, there wasn’t anything in here that felt grotesquely horror.

Andy Nelson:
Well, I guess it depends on what we’re defining as horror—

Pete Wright:
—so what are you defining as horror?

Andy Nelson:
Well, I guess I’m thinking of just a straight-up, scare-factor sort of movie, and none of these really do that. There’s certainly blood — Messiah of Evil definitely, it starts right out of the gate with a guy getting his throat slashed open, so there’s definitely bloody moments in that film. Goodnight Mommy, as you said, has a lot of bloody moments and things happening. Girl Walks Home Alone at Night — she is a vampire, she’s creeping, she eats a finger, but it’s black and white, so all the blood ends up just — it kind of tones it down. But also, to a certain extent, as the director even said, it’s kind of an Iranian Western horror film that has a rom-com vibe, she put this John Hughes sort of tone to it with this romance in there. The Babadook might be the most kind of straight creature-feature type of horror we actually have, but again, not a gory film, no one dies other than the dog.

Pete Wright:
The most intense sequence is the dog.

Andy Nelson:
Yeah. The Lure, kind of a mermaid musical — yes, they’re definitely more of that old-school style of mermaids, kind of the sirens, so they’re eating people and stuff like that, but largely it’s more of a character musical, as we said, the mermaid Rumspringa, as they’re trying to figure out who they are and stuff. And Saint Maud, maybe that is a little more of the horror — that’s definitely the psychological battle between two people, as one of them is really going crazy and seeing and doing things. And then Relic, as you said, that’s very much, to me, more of a haunted house sort of film. So it’s an interesting mix, I think we’re seeing — and perhaps it’s just the idea that horror can reach a much broader spectrum of types of stories, and as long as it has some kind of creepy moments and scare factor, it can still fall under the horror banner.

Pete Wright:
I think the horror here is really hanging its hat, on all of these movies, on just how unsettled the mood is to the movie. And in that regard, something like The Lure absolutely fails — there’s nothing unsettling about the mood, and that’s not what they’re going for, that’s not the intent. And still, had a good time.

Andy Nelson:
It’s also interesting because — I’d have to really think back through a lot of the horror films I’ve watched over my life, but how many horror films before this last decade started feeling like they were doing — like, there was a metaphorical element other than just the thematic elements, but real metaphors in their horror films? Can you think of that many horror films before — it does seem like it’s really the last decade where we’ve started seeing this rise of this sort of use of horror film.

Pete Wright:
I feel like any of the monster movies are pretty useful metaphors, right, for the unknown, whether it’s technology or science or disease, all of those things. We’ve talked about extensively whenever we’ve talked about, like, Godzilla or King Kong or those kinds of things — they’re absolutely a metaphor for something else we don’t know how to handle. In straight-up horror, I guess you could say the same thing, but I’m kind of a noob, so I don’t have the catalog that you do at my fingertips.

Andy Nelson:
Well, but even if we’re thinking of things like — I’m just going through the eighties — things like The Thing, Poltergeist—

Pete Wright:
Yeah.

Andy Nelson:
—Halloween — I mean, you just watched all the Nightmare on Elm Street, the Alien franchise — yes, I guess you could say an idea of technology, or the unknown, or space, or things that you are potentially more afraid of, that could hurt you, I suppose.

Pete Wright:
Well, and Poltergeist, for example — I would not necessarily call that a horror movie, but it certainly is a movie that uses horror tropes to have a conversation with us about family, and about the bonds that bind us as family members. I think that’s really interesting. It’s been way too long since I’ve seen it, it needs to be higher on my list.

Andy Nelson:
Well, you’re crazy if you think it’s not a horror film.

Pete Wright:
Well, no, I mean, okay, alright — tree, clown puppets, I get it, monster in—

Andy Nelson:
—the closet.

Pete Wright:
You know, you’re right.

Andy Nelson:
Getting sucked through into the TV, I mean, there’s—

Pete Wright:
—do you know what it is, pulling your face off.

Andy Nelson:
Many.

Pete Wright:
Oh, god, yeah, I’ve seen that movie so many times as a child that I remember it as, like, it might as well be—

Andy Nelson:
—Looney Tunes.

Pete Wright:
I’m so callous.

Andy Nelson:
Disney made that? Isn’t it an animated film?

Pete Wright:
I think that’s — well, Steve was in that. Yeah, you’re right, that’s a really good point. It’s a horror movie, but it’s one that I feel like has a broader story, and that’s Spielberg — that’s stuff he’s into.

Andy Nelson:
Are you saying that it’s metaphorical? Is there a metaphorical element, or is it just kind of a thematic look at the quietness of suburbs, and a darker bed underneath?

Pete Wright:
I absolutely think it’s thematic. In terms of strict metaphor, I need to watch it again, but I know it’s a thematic sort of structural approach to family, suburbs, technology, distance, the respect that we give our history and the history of others — it’s definitely an exploration of the cost of innovation to our cultural past, and to the Venn diagram that is different races and cultures that share space over time. There are some really interesting things to talk about with regard to Poltergeist. And that makes that movie particularly interesting, and I would compare it to Nightmare on Elm Street, which we just did — I mean, there’s some bad parents, definitely a treatise on parents killing janitors. But it really leans so heavily into “we can do this thing on camera and make it look sick, let’s do this thing,” rather than use those things to tell a story that gives you a real thinker at the end.

Andy Nelson:
Well, I think that — if you look at films like Hereditary and The Witch, I think there is an interesting movement in horror film — I feel like if we were looking at stuff twenty years ago, that’s when we had the rise of the torture porn in horror. I feel like there’s always been kind of a general horror thread running through everything.

Pete Wright:
For example, I haven’t seen any of the Saw movies, I need you to comment on the—

Andy Nelson:
—Saw movies.

Pete Wright:
Is Saw movies telling something bigger?

Andy Nelson:
No — well, so, in the nineties, we started getting kind of a meta look at horror, with Wes Craven’s New Nightmare and the Scream films and stuff like that, and started addressing what’s going on in these horror films. And then I feel like they just wanted to up the gore factor, and so the torture porn really came into popularity with the Saw films, with stuff that Eli Roth was doing with the Hostel films, things like that — they were just like, how gross can we make this. I don’t know, you could probably dig for metaphors and themes, but I think they were largely just making those films because they’re fun and creepy. The Saw films definitely have a whole — I don’t necessarily think it’s a metaphor, but that whole theme of — to a certain extent, it’s Fight Club, just a much darker version of that, because that’s the whole thing, you didn’t take these chances in your life, and now you have the opportunity to take that chance or die, and that’s kind of the dark place they go to in that particular franchise.

Pete Wright:
You know,

Andy Nelson:
I really enjoy that franchise, I think it’s fun, but there certainly are some highs and lows.

Pete Wright:
Yeah, we’ve never talked about The Green Inferno on the show, right?

Andy Nelson:
You talked about it — no, I didn’t see it, you talked about it, you had it on the list of, I think, cannibal stuff.

Pete Wright:
I think it was an ants thing, I don’t know. But the whole thing with that movie, again, is Eli Roth, and he’s having a lot of fun in the cannibal horror genre space — he’s having a delightful time in that sort of cannibal torture porn, but he’s also telling a story, again, of that cultural conflict, that mashup where these social activist college students have no business going to this place, and landing in this, and trying to do good in the spirit of trying to do good, they end up really paying for it, because they’re getting into an area that is inappropriate for them — that’s the cultural clash. I found it fascinating, and I was really entertained by it. And the same thing you can say about Midsommar — right, they’re having a lot of fun right now, I think, telling these stories of these horror fish-out-of-water stories, these people, in the spirit of doing good, come into a community with established traditions and social norms, and those social norms include eating you, putting you in a bear, and lighting you on fire, right. But so they’re fun to watch, but they actually, I think, make you think — what business do these people have there, and what business do we have when we march in with entitlement into communities we don’t understand. So that, I think, is really fascinating.

Andy Nelson:
You know, to a certain extent, you could argue the same point with the Hostel films — stupid college kids going and touring around and hooking up with people in ways that they’re probably being a little too willing to go along with certain people, and it gets them into these places where they’re locked in rooms and used as torture opportunities for people with a lot of money who wanna hurt people. So again, I think there are these things. But what I do think is interesting is, in this last decade, you did start seeing this change in horror films. And also, over the last few decades, there are female directors out there directing horror films — but if you go back to Messiah of Evil and look through the period before that, it’s pretty slim pickings, if any, with Messiah of Evil, which again was co-directed. And then into the eighties, you do have some, but again, few and far between. And then moving forward, right now in the 2010s, we really have seen a growth in horror film direction by women, which is great. We’re seeing a lot more interesting things. And I do think it’s interesting that they haven’t necessarily been going this route of the straight-up violence sort of things, but they’re doing this more interesting sort of horror film that’s looking at horror through different lenses. Based on what we’re seeing here, I think there’s a lot of interesting elements in these films, and I don’t know — is it because they’re female directors, or is it just because they’re taking a different approach?

Pete Wright:
Well, probably a little of both, but I think just introducing a new sensibility to old tropes is fascinating.

Andy Nelson:
I like what we are seeing. Did you end up seeing the Black Christmas remake?

Pete Wright:
I did.

Andy Nelson:
Okay, because I didn’t. But I know we had talked about the original film, on our show, as a Christmas episode a while back. And then this new Black Christmas came out, directed by a woman, Sophia Takal, and my understanding from the trailer was that they were taking a more feminist approach to it. Did you feel like there was that angle with that particular film?

Pete Wright:
I actually did quite like the movie — I gave it four stars and a heart, I thought it was really fun, it does feel like an upgrade to the original, and it’s frivolous, and they’re clearly having a good time with it. There are tones of Edgar Wright in it. I had written that it doesn’t quite stick the landing, and then they do — there’s a twist on a twist on a twist on a twist kind of thing going on in the movie. And it’s a movie that absolutely does unleash the sort of gender politics, and I think they do it really well.

Andy Nelson:
Do you remember your review of the first one, your star rating — was it that high, or—

Pete Wright:
—I gave it three and a half stars.

Andy Nelson:
Okay, it was not as high.

Pete Wright:
Barely, barely. And my review of that film — it didn’t enter, because this was before I was entering reviews, so when I click on it, it wasn’t there. But I didn’t give it a heart, and I did give the remake a heart.

Andy Nelson:
Okay.

Pete Wright:
I think there was just a thing — maybe culturally, in 1974, it was fine to have a movie that just unleashes on sorority girls, and gives you the final-girl trope and does all of these things, and it’s just not fun anymore. So now watching the sorority girls bring hell upon others is more interesting.

Andy Nelson:
And that certainly was part of the trend in the seventies and eighties with horror films, kind of the slasher films — it was certainly a thing with Friday the 13th, where all the girls who were naughty, who ended up having sex at the camp, ended up getting killed, and it’s the virginal one who ends up surviving — let’s get tops off. And even when they were working on the remakes and re-entries in these different franchises, like when they did the remake of Friday the 13th, in the 2000s, I think — again, they’re just going back to that same trope of getting the tops off and all that sort of thing. And I think that certainly is an element that, by bringing in different directors, bringing in female directors, modern sensibilities, they’re saying, why do we need to have all of that in a horror film? Let’s just make a horror film and use that, we don’t necessarily need to up this titillating factor to make it a film that people wanna see.

Pete Wright:
But I think we’re better for it, I think there—

Andy Nelson:
—are better movies coming out of it. And if there’s anything we’re learning still, it’s that horror films are still a great starting place for new filmmakers to get off the ground — all of these films, I think, stand out as something that has a voice, that there’s something interesting going on here, that the filmmakers themselves ended up using to get other projects going. I think that’s always been the case for horror films, especially as independent cinema has been rising — when you don’t have a lot of money, if you can find a way to craft something creepy and off-putting that you can crank out for not a lot of money, it can make a ton of money, and then you can very easily use that to get your career going.

Pete Wright:
Well, and here’s the thing to remember, that for the longest time it was men making horror movies, but in terms of reported lovers of horror movies and the horror genre, it’s pretty split — fifty-fifty, 51-49, women do love taking in this content. And it was at PodCon some years ago, we were listening to a story by the woman who makes that true crime podcast — Criminal? Was it Criminal, I think it was Criminal, there’s two women who do that. I don’t know, and they came back and they said that they were asked, how do you track your audience, who listens to your show, and it’s like, oh, middle-aged white women, to a person. Like, those are the people who love our show. So there is a certain bent — it’s one of those gloriously overdue fallacies that we have so many capable filmmakers who are women, taking the reins and making these movies now, making the horror movies that they wanna see. And they’re great movies.

So if you were to rank the movies for yourself, how do you land — all the horror movies, not just the seven we did, start at the top.

Andy Nelson:
I’ll start — all horror movies, okay, I’m gonna go to every horror movie I’ve ever watched. Well, Relic is definitely the top for me, that film just — it still sticks with me, there are moments throughout that film that were so creative and effective, and it crafted such a haunting haunted house movie that, really, for me, had the characters I latched onto, and it stuck the landing as far as crafting the metaphor in a way that I was really not expecting, just a powerful, powerful film. So that, for me, is the top. From there, I ended up ranking a lot of these four stars, so I’m trying to remember here — it’s probably going to go, A Girl Walks Home Alone at Night is next. And then Goodnight Mommy. And then a lot of the rest ended up like three and a half, I’m gonna guess, so I’m gonna say Saint Maud for me. And then, boy, I’m really torn between Messiah of Evil and The Lure, they both really, I find interesting — I’m probably gonna say Messiah of Evil, just because there’s something really creepy about that. Then The Lure, and then the Babadook.

Pete Wright:
Wow, Babadook is last.

Andy Nelson:
I mean, that’s the lowest — that’s the one I gave three, everything is either three, three and a half, or four stars, or five for Relic.

Pete Wright:
I think we agree on our one and two, Relic and A Girl Walks Home Alone at Night — that was your number two?

Andy Nelson:
Yep.

Pete Wright:
Okay, I went for number three, I went with The Lure, and then the Babadook, and then Goodnight Mommy, Messiah of Evil, and Saint Maud. And there are some star ratings that need to be adjusted in that list, because that’s a list I feel pretty good about — I think either Messiah of Evil feels pretty good, Goodnight Mommy needs to drop, and probably that Babadook needs to go up a half star.

Andy Nelson:
I’m really surprised that you feel that with Goodnight Mommy, because that film—

Pete Wright:
—it’s still a three star, it’s still a competent film.

Andy Nelson:
Yeah, but I don’t hate it, I think it’s more than competent, I find that film so much more effective, because of how they crafted so much of the horror in that particular film, and just the psychology of these boys who just need their mom and are feeling very lost — or, and I should say this boy, but you know what I mean when I say that. I like that a lot.

Pete Wright:
I think, generally, we have a list of great movies, and I don’t not recommend any of these movies to people, if you’re interested in these — this has been a really solid series. Should we rank it?

Andy Nelson:
Well, before we do, I have a question for you — so I’m just curious, horror debuts, when we posted our list to our members to pick what was gonna be our September member bonus, which ended up being Relic, did you end up watching any of the other ones that were on the list as options? Had you done any other Horror Debuts digging at all, to see what else was out there?

Pete Wright:
I’d have to compare the list with my Letterboxd.

Andy Nelson:
Well, you’ll remember what you’d seen — here’s the movies: Amer, which was from 2009, The Slumber Party Massacre, that was the ’82 movie — that definitely rose back to something, a woman directed that back in the eighties. Revenge from 2017, Soulmate from 2013, Mirror Mirror from 1990, and Silent House from 2011.

Pete Wright:
No, I didn’t go watch any of those, did you?

Andy Nelson:
I didn’t, and I’m certainly curious about them.

Pete Wright:
It makes me want to now.

Andy Nelson:
Yeah, I definitely want to check the films out, because, as I was digging around trying to find other options for our Horror Debuts series, they all sounded really interesting. So my curiosity has been piqued to check through that list — I may do some more watching. Or, hey, at the very least, we’ve got other options if we decide to do another addition to the Horror Debuts series down the road.

Pete Wright:
Horror Debuts Two. Alright, so should we go ahead and rank these things?

Andy Nelson:
Yes.

Pete Wright:
Get them on the chart — they need to be Flicked.

Andy Nelson:
Oh god, you are trying to start far too many things — it’s not a quantity-over-quality thing, Pete, it’s quality over quantity, let me help you flip that.

Pete Wright:
Well, you’re doing it wrong.

Andy Nelson:
Alright, first up, Messiah of Evil.

Andy Nelson:
I wanna say it—

Pete Wright:
—like—

Andy Nelson:
—like Doctor Evil.

Pete Wright:
I always think of that, that’s funny — it’s also him in How I Married, or So I Married an Axe Murderer, Fruits of the Devil.

Andy Nelson:
Yes, absolutely. Alright, first up, Messiah of Evil or High Noon, probably—

Pete Wright:
—High Noon.

Andy Nelson:
Yeah, I feel like I’ll go High Noon — even though I had more issues with it this time, I feel like there’s a very strong concept going on in that film that I probably do need to watch and re-rank, because I feel like it’s probably better than I keep giving it credit for. But that certainly is a strong concept for a film. Next up, Messiah of Evil or Scarface.

Pete Wright:
I’m curious on that one, where do you land?

Andy Nelson:
I’m gonna say Messiah of Evil — maybe it’s also because it’s half the length of Scarface, but Scarface is a strong film, I’ve never connected with it like a lot of people seem to. I think Pacino is definitely over the top and big in that film, but I just end up always struggling with the film itself. So, Messiah of Evil, I think there’s a real element to the creep factor they’ve created in that, so I’ll go with that one.

Pete Wright:
Okay, I’m gonna represent the other people — even though I don’t feel terribly strongly about it, I feel like we should pop it open. Here, let’s do it.

Andy Nelson:
Okay, here we go — one, two, three. Scissors.

Pete Wright:
Paper.

Andy Nelson:
Scissors, scissors.

Pete Wright:
Scarface. That’s a real volley.

Andy Nelson:
It was, it definitely was. Messiah of Evil or Year of the Dragon.

Pete Wright:
Love Messiah — of that movie, god, hands down, I cannot answer fast enough.

Andy Nelson:
Yeah, I’ll say Messiah of Evil also. Messiah of Evil or Danger: Diabolik? I’ll say Danger: Diabolik.

Pete Wright:
I genuinely enjoyed—

Andy Nelson:
—that film.

Pete Wright:
Wackadoo movie, I’ll give you Danger: Diabolik.

Andy Nelson:
Alright.

Pete Wright:
This little treat.

Andy Nelson:
Messiah of Evil or Duck, You Sucker? I’ll say Duck, You Sucker. Duck, You Sucker. Messiah of Evil or Say Anything? I’ll say Say Anything.

Pete Wright:
Say Anything.

Andy Nelson:
Messiah of Evil or Amour? Amour — such a hard movie to watch, I would say Messiah of Evil, because despite the strength of Amour, Messiah of Evil is more fun to watch.

Andy Nelson:
Okay, here we go, one, two, three. Rock. Rock.

Andy Nelson:
Scissors, scissors, you—

Pete Wright:
—are cheating and still lost.

Andy Nelson:
Yeah, I’m not cheating. Obviously, I lost.

Pete Wright:
You’re taking advantage of the delay, and you’re trying to distract me with your glasses.

Andy Nelson:
Alright, so Messiah of Evil or National Lampoon’s European Vacation.

Pete Wright:
Oh, dear.

Andy Nelson:
Messiah of Evil.

Pete Wright:
Yeah, me too.

Andy Nelson:
Messiah of Evil or Salvador? I’m sorry, what was that, Salvador, Salvador — I’m saying it like I did there. Okay, Messiah of Evil.

Pete Wright:
Is that what they all sound like?

Andy Nelson:
All of them.

Pete Wright:
Sorry about that, Homax. I’m gonna say Messiah of Evil.

Andy Nelson:
Oh, well, that lands Messiah of Evil in spot 456 on our chart.

Pete Wright:
456—

Andy Nelson:
—out of 525. Pretty low, that’s 13%. If it were up to me, it would have been higher, but hey, I was losing. So what are you gonna do. Alright, Goodnight Mommy — you’re gonna sync this one too, see where we go with this. Goodnight Mommy or High Noon?

Pete Wright:
High Noon.

Andy Nelson:
I’ll say High Noon. Goodnight Mommy or The Lonely Guy? Goodnight Mommy.

Pete Wright:
Goodnight Mommy.

Andy Nelson:
Goodnight Mommy or Once Upon a Time in America? Oh, it’s a tough one, I’ll say Goodnight Mommy.

Pete Wright:
Okay, Once Upon a Time. Alright.

Andy Nelson:
Here we go, one, two, three. Three.

Pete Wright:
Scissors.

Andy Nelson:
Not my day, Once Upon a Time takes it. Goodnight Mommy or Beneath the Planet of the Apes, the second of our Apes films?

Pete Wright:
You know, I go Goodnight Mommy on this.

Andy Nelson:
I’ll say Goodnight Mommy as well. Goodnight Mommy or Labyrinth? Oh, Labyrinth for me. Okay, Labyrinth. Goodnight Mommy or Die Hard with a Vengeance, that’s number three in that franchise, aka Simon Says?

Pete Wright:
Die Hard.

Andy Nelson:
It is Die Hard, I’ll say Die Hard, it’s a fun one. Goodnight Mommy or It Happened One Night? Oh, It Happened One Night, absolutely.

Pete Wright:
It Happened One Night?

Andy Nelson:
Why is that so low on our chart, I don’t know. Goodnight Mommy or Lady Vengeance? I really need to watch that again.

Andy Nelson:
Oh, not the one—

Pete Wright:
—with the classroom at the end.

Andy Nelson:
I remember zero about that movie — I know I watched it, why do I remember nothing about it — I’m gonna say Goodnight Mommy.

Pete Wright:
I know, Lady Vengeance.

Andy Nelson:
Okay, here we go — one, three—

Andy Nelson:
—paper. Scissors, Lady Vengeance takes it. Goodnight Mommy or The Thin Man? I’ll say Goodnight Mommy.

Pete Wright:
Thin Man.

Andy Nelson:
Wow, okay, here we go — one, two, three. Three, scissors.

Pete Wright:
Andy, what’s going on?

Andy Nelson:
I don’t know.

Pete Wright:
I am starting to get uncomfortable.

Andy Nelson:
The Thin Man takes it. Goodnight Mommy or Die Hard 2? Die Hard 2.

Pete Wright:
Die Hard—

Andy Nelson:
Mhmm. Oh, Reni, Reni, Reni — I’ll say Goodnight—

Pete Wright:
It’s the Stapleton Airport factor.

Andy Nelson:
I’ll say Die Hard 2. Yeah, I know, I know, I know. That lands Goodnight Mommy at about 362 on our chart — 362 out of 526 is a 31%. My Rochambeauing is terrible.

Pete Wright:
Yeah, we’re struggling.

Andy Nelson:
Alright, next up, we talked about A Girl Walks Home Alone at Night, 2014, Ana Lily Amirpour. First up, A Girl Walks Home Alone at Night or Creepshow?

Andy Nelson:
Creepshow for me.

Pete Wright:
Girl Walks Home Alone at Night, Andy.

Andy Nelson:
Alright, here we go — one, two, three.

Andy Nelson:
Paper, paper, paper — alright, Creepshow takes it.

Pete Wright:
I feel like I did not do a service to listeners, or frankly to you, by losing that one.

Andy Nelson:
A Girl Walks — you know, it’s Flickchart, I wanna punch Flickchart in the face all the time, things are in weird places. A Girl Walks Home Alone at Night or The Lonely Guy?

Pete Wright:
A Girl Walks Home.

Andy Nelson:
Girl Walks Home Alone at Night or Infernal Affairs?

Pete Wright:
Infernal Affairs.

Andy Nelson:
Girl Walks Home Alone at Night or Beneath the Planet of the Apes?

Pete Wright:
Girl Walks Home.

Andy Nelson:
Girl Walks Home Alone at Night or Sophie’s Choice?

Pete Wright:
I’d probably put Girl Walks Home first.

Andy Nelson:
Yeah, Girl Walks Home. Sophie’s Choice, man, I know, I know. A Girl Walks Home Alone at Night or—

Pete Wright:
—Girl Walks Home.

Andy Nelson:
Girl Walks Home — A Girl Walks Home Alone at Night or The Magnificent Seven, the original 1960 version, two kind of Westerns?

Pete Wright:
Magnificent Seven.

Andy Nelson:
I will say — A Girl Walks Home — oh, no, I’ll say Magnificent Seven. A Girl Walks Home Alone at Night or Gremlins? Oh, Gremlins, Gremlins. Girl Walks Home Alone at Night or Dead Men Don’t Wear Plaid?

Pete Wright:
Girl Walks Home Alone at Night.

Andy Nelson:
That lands Girl Walks Home Alone at Night in spot 337 on our chart — 337 out of, five something, 564, is that right, or is it — no, out of 527, sorry, 27, 36% on our chart.

Andy Nelson:
Okay. Alright, The Babadook or Creepshow?

Andy Nelson:
Creepshow, please, don’t you dare — don’t you—

Pete Wright:
—what, you were saying?

Andy Nelson:
Do it, do it—

Andy Nelson:
—do it, you must, do what you must — Creepshow, thank you. Babadook or Scarface? I’ll say Scarface.

Pete Wright:
Alright, I’ll say Babadook. Okay.

Andy Nelson:
Here we go, one, two, three. Rock.

Pete Wright:
Andy has turned it around now, two in a row.

Andy Nelson:
Okay, The Babadook or I Shot Andy Warhol? Very unlikely protagonist in that film, she doesn’t save a cat either.

Pete Wright:
No, truth, I still have her manifesto in my inbox.

Andy Nelson:
Jeez, I’ll say the Babadook as well. The Babadook or Danger: Diabolik? I’ll say Danger: Diabolik. Here we go — alright, one, two, three, scissors, there you go, Danger: Diabolik takes it. The Babadook or Duck, You Sucker? I’ll say Duck, You Sucker. Duck, You Sucker. The Babadook or Say Anything? I’ll say Say Anything.

Pete Wright:
Say Anything.

Andy Nelson:
The Babadook or Amour? Amour — same path, oh, jeez, I’ll say Amour. You know what movie is not metaphorical? Amour, it’s just straight up.

Pete Wright:
Yeah, truth.

Andy Nelson:
Alright, The Babadook or Salvador? I’ll say Salvador, Salvador. The Babadook or National Lampoon’s European Vacation, I’ll say the Babadook.

Andy Nelson:
Babadook.

Andy Nelson:
Alright, well, that lands the Babadook in spot 460 on our chart — 460 out of 528, 13%, oh, down there with Messiah of Evil. The Lure, from 2015, Agnieszka Smoczyńska’s film — The Lure or Real Genius? Oh, Real Genius.

Andy Nelson:
Wow.

Pete Wright:
Okay, Real Genius, but that’s a bummer.

Andy Nelson:
I know. Well, The Lure or The Lonely Guy, I will say The Lure. The Lure. The Lure or Point Break?

Andy Nelson:
Interesting.

Andy Nelson:
I’m gonna go with Point Break.

Pete Wright:
I’m gonna go with The Lure.

Andy Nelson:
Okay, here we go — one, two, three, rock,

Pete Wright:
scissors, scissors.

Andy Nelson:
Oh, The Lure takes it. Alright, The Lure or Rocky III, this is the Mister T showdown. Oh, I’ll say The Lure.

Pete Wright:
There’s a fool has been pitied, I will say The Lure as well.

Andy Nelson:
The Lure or Joe Versus the Volcano? Oh, Joe Versus the Volcano, with a bullet. The Lure or Carrie, I will say Carrie.

Pete Wright:
I think there’s a good Carrie vibe that I’m feeling right now, but I don’t really — struggling with it, alright, I’ll give it to you.

Andy Nelson:
Okay, The Lure or A Star Is Born, 1937, that’s the Janet Gaynor, Fredric March version — The Lure, I’m gonna say A Star Is Born. I really liked that.

Pete Wright:
Yeah, I’m okay.

Andy Nelson:
Okay, alright, here we go — one, two, three.

Andy Nelson:
Scissors, The Lure takes it. The Lure or Princess Mononoke? I will say Princess Mononoke, Princess Mononoke. The Lure or Robin Hood, 2010, Ridley Scott’s version with Russell Crowe? I will say The Lure. The Lure — well, that lands The Lure in spot 292 on our chart, 292 out of 529, that puts it at 45%. We’re up to Saint Maud — pretty sure that’s how they say it in the movie.

Pete Wright:
I think it is, yeah.

Andy Nelson:
That’s how—

Pete Wright:
—it’s written in the Bible.

Andy Nelson:
Saint Maud or Real Genius? Oh, Real Genius again.

Pete Wright:
Real Genius.

Andy Nelson:
Saint Maud or The Lonely Guy? I will say Saint Maud, Saint Maud. Saint Maud or Point Break? Oh, I’ll say Point Break, Point Break. Saint Maud or Goodnight Mommy? I will say Goodnight Mommy.

Pete Wright:
Goodnight Mommy.

Andy Nelson:
Saint Maud or Alice Doesn’t Live Here Anymore?

Pete Wright:
Alice Doesn’t Live Here Anymore.

Andy Nelson:
You could say that Katie doesn’t live here anymore. Saint Maud — you could — oh, I’m gonna say Saint Maud.

Andy Nelson:
Here we go, one, two, three.

Andy Nelson:
Paper.

Pete Wright:
Scissors.

Andy Nelson:
Oh, Alice takes it. Saint Maud or The Host? Saint Maud for me. The Host — oh, come on.

Andy Nelson:
Here we go, two, three — it’s rock.

Andy Nelson:
The Host takes it. Saint Maud or La Femme Nikita? Saint Maud. Here we go.

Andy Nelson:
Really, really — one, two, three—

Pete Wright:
—paper, scissors.

Andy Nelson:
Jeez. Saint Maud or Look Who’s Talking? Saint Maud. Look Who’s Talking. I think you’re forcing yourself to hate Saint Maud more than you did.

No, I’m forcing myself to hate you right now. Okay, if that’s how we gotta do it, here we go.

One, two, three, rocker, jeez.

I—

Pete Wright:
—didn’t even, I wanted to lose, I set an intention.

Andy Nelson:
Lose this or Rabbit? Oh, Rabbit, 100%, Saint Maud. Here we go, one, two, three.

Andy Nelson:
Scissors, Andy—

Pete Wright:
—Jesus Christ, freaking show up, will you?

Andy Nelson:
Saint Maud or Scarface? I will say Saint Maud.

Pete Wright:
Saint Maud, I can’t bear it anymore.

Andy Nelson:
397 out of 530 on the chart, 25%. Last but not least, Relic, for the primary. I don’t know what’s going on. Relic or The Bank Job?

I will say Relic, Relic. Relic or Memento? Oh, wow, I gotta say Memento, Memento. Relic or Night of the Living Dead?

Pete Wright:
Night of the Living—

Andy Nelson:
—’68, I’ll say Night of the Living Dead as well. Relic or Hero, the Zhang Yimou? Lovely.

Pete Wright:
Relic, Relic — I think it would be harder if it was Crouching Tiger, probably.

Andy Nelson:
Relic or About a Boy? Oh, About a Boy for me.

Pete Wright:
Yeah, About a Boy.

Andy Nelson:
Relic or Local Hero? I will say Relic.

Pete Wright:
Local Hero was adorable.

Andy Nelson:
Yeah.

Andy Nelson:
Alright, Relic — Relic or The Abyss? The Abyss, The Abyss. Relic or Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance? Relic for me.

Pete Wright:
Relic, yeah.

Andy Nelson:
Relic or Mother? Oh—

Pete Wright:
—wow, we haven’t had that one come up in a while.

Andy Nelson:
I’m gonna say Mother.

Pete Wright:
Okay.

Andy Nelson:
Me too, I — that’s what I really wanna rewatch, it’s been on my rewatch list for a while. Relic ended up in spot 221 on our chart, out of 531 — that puts it at 58%.

Pete Wright:
That’s really interesting, it was a five-star movie for both of us that it didn’t break the top 100.

Andy Nelson:
Well, yeah, but again, we’ve talked about so many movies that we like, it’s very challenging. Alright, so let me see where all of these movies are now. So that ends up putting Relic as our number one spot. Number two is The Lure. Wow. Number three is Girl Walks Home Alone at Night. Number four is Goodnight Mommy. Number five is Saint Maud. Number six is Messiah of Evil, and The Babadook is number seven.

Pete Wright:
The Babadook is number seven.

Andy Nelson:
Yeah, so that’s fine with me.

Pete Wright:
Man, that’s fascinating, especially given, I think, across the board how high our stars were — we didn’t have a one- or two-star movie in this lot, they’re all — I think they’re all three stars or higher, right? What has happened to us?

Andy Nelson:
Well, it’s just, it’s that middle block, right, and it used to be the O Brother block — today it was some other films, but when you hit that block, it forces it immediately into the bottom half, and that makes it hard. I’m surprised that some of them, as soon as they dropped into the bottom half, didn’t rise up to the middle.

Pete Wright:
Me too.

Andy Nelson:
But it is what it is. So anyway, we’ll get that list updated over in our Letterboxd headquarters, and we’ll have the full list in Flickchart order up there, so you can check out all those movies. And holy cow, we’re gonna be starting our next series, which takes us through the end of the year to celebrate our tenth anniversary.

Pete Wright:
Yeah, ten-year films.

Andy Nelson:
And we’re starting with 17 Filles.

Pete Wright:
17 Filles, yeah, as you taught me to say.

Andy Nelson:
Can’t wait for you to—

Pete Wright:
—watch it already? Yeah, I did.

Andy Nelson:
Oh, wow.

Pete Wright:
Look at you. I watched it the night — we just, like, two or three nights ago, when we recorded Saint Maud, I watched it that — okay.

Andy Nelson:
I’m curious to know if you found it as boring and tedious as our listener, Ben Lott, found it when he reviewed it.

Andy Nelson:
Oh. Oh. Oh.

Andy Nelson:
Okay, a lot—

Pete Wright:
—of a—

Andy Nelson:
—lot has happened there.

Pete Wright:
All I knew was that was a real roller coaster — all I knew of that movie is that Ben had written saying that one movie was boring and tedious, and one movie was the best movie he’s seen of the year, or something like that, and I didn’t know which one they were, I had completely misplaced that in my head. Things make more sense now to me.

Andy Nelson:
It’s all coming clear, it’s so funny. But, no, it is gonna be a fun series — we are gonna be looking at, starting with 17 Filles, directed by — is it Coulin? The Coulin sisters? I’m not sure how to say it, but Muriel and Delphine Coulin.

Pete Wright:
You’re a — you know all this stuff, I’m not looking at it.

Andy Nelson:
C-O-U-L-I-N, Coulin?

Pete Wright:
Yeah, probably Coulin? We have Miranda July’s The Future.

Andy Nelson:
We have Hard Labor, directed by Juliana Rojas and Marco Dutra. We have Pariah, from Dee Rees. We have Tomboy, from Céline Sciamma. We have We Need to Talk About Kevin, from Lynne Ramsay. Where Do We Go Now, from Nadine Labaki. Zindagi Na Milegi Dobara, by Zoya Akhtar. A Simple Life, by Ann Hui, which is actually also a crossover into the next series.

Pete Wright:
Yep.

Andy Nelson:
But we put it second to last, because we’re ending with our holiday film, Arthur Christmas, directed by Sarah Smith. Ten films that are ten years old this year, and I’m very excited to just look and see how these films stand the test of time — certainly you don’t hear a lot of people talking about a lot of these films, but I still think it’s interesting to look at them and get a sense — do they really kind of stand the test of time, and hold up all these years later?

Pete Wright:
Can’t wait, it’s gonna be awesome.

Andy Nelson:
We should also just throw out there that there may be a special tenth anniversary bonus episode that we might be dropping this coming anniversary as well, which is November 11th, if people are wondering.

Pete Wright:
Yep, November 11th — eleven, eleven, at eleven, eleven, eleven, eleven, eleven, eleven, eleven, eleven.

Andy Nelson:
A lot of elevens. So many. Alright, we need a shirt — 11, 11, 11, okay, The Next Reel, that’ll be our anniversary shirt.

Pete Wright:
That’ll be—

Andy Nelson:
—our — it’ll be out there, we’re gonna make it happen.

Pete Wright:
We’re gonna make it happen — 11-11-11, TNR111111.

Andy Nelson:
That’s right. Any last thoughts on this one?

Pete Wright:
No, this is good, had a good time with it, ready to move on.

Andy Nelson:
Well, remember, everybody, we wanna know what you’re thinking about the movies, and with our ten-year — our tenth anniversary series coming up — watch those movies, send us your thoughts. You can send a thirty second-ish audio clip to reviews@trustory.fm, we just might throw it into the show, it’s a great way to be a part of the conversation. So thanks, everybody, we appreciate it.

Pete Wright:
You’ve been — oh, dear, how about that, is that gonna go?

Andy Nelson:
Yeah, you’re gonna — alright, no, that’s — yeah, alright. Until — and just so you know, this next series, Pete, ten episodes.

Pete Wright:
I know, it’s so long.

Andy Nelson:
There’s a long episode, so long, series. So, everybody, we’ll see you back here for the Retake, ten episodes from now. Hey, perfect. Let’s just do one more.