Pete Wright: Hello, everybody, and welcome to Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast on TruStory FM. I’m Pete Wright, and I’m here with Nikki Kinzer.

Nikki Kinzer: Hello, everyone. Hello, Pete Wright.

Pete Wright: Oh. Oh, hi. Hi, Nikki.

Nikki Kinzer: Oh, hi. Hi.

Pete Wright: I have just been informed that I am not allowed to tell you that Spider-Man isn’t real. So Spider-Man is not not real.

Nikki Kinzer: I saw him in California.

Pete Wright: Yeah. He is wandering around.

Nikki Kinzer: I saw him.

Pete Wright: He must have been vacationing, because he doesn’t live in California. Everybody knows that. He lives in New York. He’s a Queens boy. And that’s the story that we’re going to stick with. And the new movie is still really good. There you go.

Nikki Kinzer: All right.

Pete Wright: All right. And so while we’re talking about Spider-Man, we’re also going to talk about ADHD today. This is our second episode of season 33, and we’re continuing our theme of traps. And this week, following on last week’s Gap Trap, this is the follow-up to our hit episode. The But I Have To Trap. We’re so good at names.

Nikki Kinzer: We are.

Pete Wright: We’re really good at names.

Nikki Kinzer: Well, and you asked me before we started recording if I was ready to do this show.

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: And I’m like, do I have to?

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: Do I have to?

Pete Wright: Right. Do I have to?

Nikki Kinzer: I have to, I want to, and I am here.

Pete Wright: So.

Nikki Kinzer: I am present.

Pete Wright: I would like to delegate it. I think that you should just take it, and I’m going to listen and learn, because that’s what I do best.

Nikki Kinzer: I know. I want a partner.

Pete Wright: All right. Well, we’ll see what happens. This is, again, a follow-up on our capacity conversation.

Nikki Kinzer: Okay.

Pete Wright: And this time we’re going to talk about the equation that doesn’t work. Like, I know the math doesn’t work in my schedule, and I still can’t say no to people. What do I do? That’s what we’re going to talk about today. I’m very excited about it.

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All right, Nikki. The episode was 3214, just last season. Oh, I remember it as if it was yesterday. When we talked about the But I Have To problem and decided, of course, we’re going to have to talk more about the But I Have To problem. Where would you like to start to get us up to speed?

Nikki Kinzer: Well, let’s just do kind of a quick little summary of where we left off. So whether you heard the episode or not, you’ll have an idea of what we’re talking about. I think it begins with the traditional kind of productivity advice that is built more for the neurotypical person, the brain that kind of understands the urgency and consistency and organization and prioritization. But for ADHD brains, it’s not that easy. When we look at our tasks, it’s more around how we feel about them, the energy around the task, and really a lot about emotion, right?

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: Because how do I feel about the things that I have to do? And so I think that for today, what we really want to start to get into is, where is that coming from? Why do we have this have-to feeling immediately when we’re looking at all of our things?

Pete Wright: Right.

Nikki Kinzer: And I remember in the show before, we kind of used this example of, you’ve got all these tasks, and I remember you saying, but I have to, I have to get them done.

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: And that is the immediate response, regardless of any other thinking about it or processing. It’s just that that’s the immediate thing: I’ve got to get them all done.

Pete Wright: Yeah. And we’re definitely going to come back around to that, because I have an addendum to that. But we have some things to get through first, right?

Nikki Kinzer: Yeah.

Pete Wright: So I think the general feeling for a person like me, when I hit that list of tasks that are all due today because I set them as due today, and I know that my capacity is not going to allow me to meet those goals, the initial thing I have to get over is my interest in ostriching. It’s like putting my head in the dirt and pretending they don’t exist.

Nikki Kinzer: Oh, right.

Pete Wright: Right? That’s the muscle I’ve had to build over the last two decades: to feel it when it’s happening, to recognize that that feeling is real, and to recognize that it’s not going to serve me in my day, and that I have to just pick the next thing and start working.

Nikki Kinzer: Mm-hmm.

Pete Wright: But I think that’s a very natural response.

Nikki Kinzer: Yeah.

Pete Wright: I think I’ve heard people talk about that, right?

Nikki Kinzer: Oh, yes.

Pete Wright: I don’t feel like I’m alone.

Nikki Kinzer: I mean, it’s a cycle.

Pete Wright: God, I hope I’m not alone.

Nikki Kinzer: Right. No, gosh, no. That’s definitely the cycle. And it’s also avoiding those harder tasks, too, because there are so many layers to it. It’s not just the emotional, but the logistics of getting started and what’s more important and everything is urgent. And so there are a lot of decisions that have to be made. There are so many things that, yes, it’s easier to just bury your head in shame. And we know that that doesn’t work very well.

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: So I think that this conversation, it’s really interesting, because there are a lot of layers to it. The have-to, there’s layers of people pleasing. What are you saying yes to? Are you overcommitting? Are we not prioritizing? There’s a lot of layers to it. But I think that peeling all of that back, where does this reflex even come from? What is it that we’re trying to protect when we think that we have to do everything? And like you said, you can look at your list, look at the calendar, and know you don’t have time to do everything, but yet…

Pete Wright: Here we are.

Nikki Kinzer: You still believe you can.

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: So it is interesting. I think that I have to is a reflex, right? Just like the hiding is a reflex.

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm.

Nikki Kinzer: It fires before you even think about anything, before you process anything. And this is what happens when nothing has been sorted into what’s urgent, what’s ordinary, what is someone else’s expectation. There has been no prioritizing. This is just how you’re feeling. And the reflex isn’t so much about the task, it’s also really trying to protect something. And so let’s figure out what that is. When you feel like you have to, where is that coming from? Is it that you’re afraid that you’re going to let somebody down? Is it because you don’t want to say no to people, or you want to prove to people that you can do these things?

Pete Wright: Well, and those feelings are emotionally ancient, right? They’re generally rooted in us as kids realizing that we had to overcompensate in order to make people happy.

Nikki Kinzer: Mm-hmm.

Pete Wright: We weren’t able to do things as easily, and we carry that kid on our backs all day long as adults. That’s the deal. We carry that metaphorical kid who’s trying to overcompensate in order to make people happy, because we’ve spent so much of our lives letting people down. That’s it.

Nikki Kinzer: Yeah. And so that’s also what I mean by there’s kind of a lot of layers here, because we’re talking about the people pleasing, overcommitting, but then we’re also talking a little bit about the prioritizing, what is not prioritizing.

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: All of that, right? And it’s interesting, because when we talk about the people pleasing in GPS, our membership, we use the five D’s to help us filter tasks.

Pete Wright: Oh my gosh, yeah, I love the five D’s.

Nikki Kinzer: Yes, and this originated from Casey Dixon, a friend of our show. And this is something that’s standard on one of our slides for us to always remember when we’re looking at that list of things to do.

The first D is delegate. What can I give to others? The delete is that this isn’t relevant anymore, it really isn’t important right now, or maybe you did it. A lot of times we see these things on our list, but then if we look at them, we can see that some of them have been done.

Pete Wright: We’ve already done ’em, yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: Yeah. Diminish is like breaking it down. So if you have something on the list that just is too big, we need to break that down into something that’s more actionable, something that you can understand. Delay is reviewing it later. That’s a really hard D, because that is fighting the urge to say, but I have to do it now. You are actually giving yourself permission to say, nope, it can wait. I can review this later.

But the biggest D, the one that we learned a lot from Casey, is disappoint. What do we need to do today that may disappoint somebody else or myself? But it’s better to do it now and be more realistic about my time and my boundaries and protecting that. And it’s interesting, because as Brooke said in our last show, it’s not really about the task, it’s the fear of what happens if you’re seen as unreliable. Or if you stop being the one who always says yes, but at what cost to you? And so really getting real about what is on this list. We have to think about that too.

Pete Wright: Yeah. That’s what makes just having the list such an act of emotional complexity. Do you know what I mean? Because I want to say one of the things that I don’t think we said clearly enough the last time we talked about this is that there’s a corollary to this capacity problem. Our position is generally as a realist: not everything on your task list has to be completed. It’s not an I have to, right? This is both a capacity problem and a prioritizing problem. And those two things are very complicated.

But it is possible that you do have a list of too many things that are time-bound and required to get done. It is absolutely possible that you can look at the list with all the sanity that we’re talking about, and you can look at them and say, can I delegate all these tasks? And you can say, no, I can’t. I work in emergency services. I work in whatever. There are literal lives and schedules at stake that I can’t. I have too many things on my task list and none of them are able to be kicked down the road. That is a different problem than we’re talking about, right? That is absolutely…

Nikki Kinzer: Yeah.

Pete Wright: A practical capacity problem that belongs in a discussion with your manager and your manager’s manager. You need more people, right? You are by default going to disappoint people because of the human limits of your capacity.

Nikki Kinzer: Yeah. I think that’s a really fair point. And I’ve been in conversations with people before.

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: Where after a lot of conversation and going back and forth, that’s been the conclusion, is that you’re right.

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: You have too many things on your list. You have too many demands and you do not have the capacity to do it all. And that is where you’re absolutely right. You have to have a conversation then with your boss, or like you said, your boss’s boss. And I think it’s also important to really think about, is this the right job for me? Am I in the right job? Am I working with the right people? Because if it’s not going to change, if they’re like, nope, this is what we require…

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: Then something probably has to change, which may mean looking for other opportunities, because it’s not a right fit.

Pete Wright: Yeah. Well, it’s not a right fit, it’s not a right model. There are all kinds of not rights, but they’re not about you and your levels of productivity that you’re able to achieve, right?

Nikki Kinzer: Right. Yeah.

Pete Wright: That’s the key. Because I know there are people who run businesses. I run a business, and I realize I can hit capacity and I have no manager to talk to, right? My problem then becomes, who do I hire? Because things will start to erode. That is the inevitable outcome if you don’t handle that part.

So I don’t want people to think that, A, they’re crazy for thinking that this is a problem that nobody else has. You are absolutely not alone. And two, we’re not completely out of touch. We recognize that this is a real issue. And it’s okay. That’s okay too.

Nikki Kinzer: I just have to say something, because it’s really interesting. In the comments, in our live feed, we have somebody who says, oh, I guess I need to talk to my manager. Well, she’s her manager, right? She’s a business owner of herself.

Pete Wright: Oh, yeah, right.

Nikki Kinzer: And we’re in the same situation.

Pete Wright: Yep.

Nikki Kinzer: And I think there’s a lot of entrepreneurs that probably are listening to this show who are like, yeah, I don’t have a boss to talk to.

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: But then you have to get really real with yourself. What expectations am I putting on myself in my business that I am not at capacity to do?

Pete Wright: And my business.

Nikki Kinzer: And that is so hard when you want to say yes to everything.

Pete Wright: Yes.

Nikki Kinzer: But at some point you have to… I had to say no to a summit that I love doing. But I had to say no, because I did not have the capacity this summer to do it. I was working on other things. I need my focus to go there. I had to make a really difficult choice. And that’s a lot of what this is too, is what has to wait?

Pete Wright: Yeah. I’m in the same boat. I’ve been cutting a bunch of trips over the fall that I was looking forward to that were going to create new opportunities, and capacity’s not there. And as the manager of myself, when I talk to myself and say, seriously, where is that time going to be manufactured?

Nikki Kinzer: Yeah.

Pete Wright: Oh, we don’t do that here. We don’t just manufacture time. Something’s got to get cut.

Nikki Kinzer: Yeah.

Pete Wright: And I mean, we talk about it in a really practical way, that prioritizing only works if the items on your list actually have different weights, right? That’s a you thing.

Nikki Kinzer: Right. But when your nervous system is on fire…

Pete Wright: Yeah, and this is it. Sometimes your nervous system is the one that says everything’s the same weight. And sometimes the real world says everything has the same weight.

Nikki Kinzer: Yes.

Pete Wright: You have to be able to tell which is which, right?

Nikki Kinzer: Right. Yes.

Pete Wright: Which is which.

Nikki Kinzer: And most of the time, it is the nervous system that’s freaking out.

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: Right? Most of the time it is the nervous system. Because if we were to actually get into the demands of, okay, who have you talked to? Have you talked to your boss, or colleagues, or gotten help? A lot of times it’s going to be, well, kinda, not really. Like, I should just be able to do this all by myself. I should just be able to do this. Because they’ve put that expectation on themselves, and also feel bad because, again, all of the things we’ve talked about. I don’t want to disappoint.

Pete Wright: Yep.

Nikki Kinzer: All of those things.

Pete Wright: Right.

Nikki Kinzer: So I love the nervous system work that we’ve been doing and talking about, because I think that’s really important, to stop when you’re feeling like, oh, there’s so much. Okay. All right, I’m in hyperarousal, going into what Tamara taught us.

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm.

Nikki Kinzer: And what do I need to do to just take a pause, take a breath here, and really dissect what’s going on?

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm.

Nikki Kinzer: Not everything has the same urgency. I know that. I know that’s true. So let’s figure out, why am I believing this? What is the belief that I’m holding on to here? And what are the fears around these tasks? And really pausing and saying, okay, what needs to be done today?

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: What can wait? What do I care about? What am I passionate about? Because the things that you care about and you’re engaged in, you’re more willing and wanting to do. It’s easier to do, I should say.

Pete Wright: Yeah. Right.

Nikki Kinzer: And so let’s seek those out, right? And get some momentum. Because when you stay stuck, you stay stuck. But we want some kind of momentum. So finding something you’re kind of engaged with. All of those things. But yeah, trying to just pause for that moment and say, wait a minute, this isn’t entirely true. It feels like it is, but it’s not entirely true.

Pete Wright: Yeah. That’s the central muscle, and that’s the thing that I think I struggle with the most. And that’s one of the reasons that I’m a renewed fan of the D’s. I’ve always loved the D’s since she introduced them. And I think when you go back and listen to that, my original favorite was delegate. What can I do to get this thing off my list and on to somebody else’s?

Nikki Kinzer: Yeah.

Pete Wright: But my actual favorite is disappoint now. I think I’ve come around, because disappoint is the most honest, right? It really is the one that allows me to speak truth to my own ability and be clear about the fact that I’m at overcapacity. And when disappoint is the thing that’s hovering over my shoulder, and when I get comfortable saying it, then everything else becomes easier. I don’t know why that is.

Nikki Kinzer: Yeah.

Pete Wright: I kind of want to pull that apart, because disappointment is the thing that is carried so heavily in all of the other prioritizing conversations, right? Disappoint goes directly against what you would expect I would be most afraid of, which is my inability to please people. I want to please people, and if I’m just going around disappointing them…

But I think that’s the counterexample. That’s the tool that allows me to better frame the list as I build it, right? It’s the thing that allows me to create margin. That margin is now sort of better labeled as the disappointment zone. Because I know if I add things to my list that are too big, if I have too many things when I come in in the morning, it’s more an act of pattern recognition.

Nikki Kinzer: Yeah.

Pete Wright: There are too many tasks on my list today. I’m going to disappoint someone. Who’s it going to be? That allows me to be better about building my list for tomorrow. I think that’s the muscle.

Nikki Kinzer: But isn’t that such a flip? And I love that you say that, because first of all, you’re aware of it, right?

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: And awareness is the key to change.

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: So you see there’s too much to do here.

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm.

Nikki Kinzer: You didn’t say, I have to do it all, or I need to make this happen, or I need to stay up all night to get it all done, or I’m a bad person.

Pete Wright: Right.

Nikki Kinzer: Nope. I need to actually adjust this list. Make it work, and then what waits for tomorrow or the next day or even next week or the next month, right? I think that that’s a really important mindset shift, is that we’re seeing what it is.

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: And then being able to modify that with what we know to be true. And when we talk about people pleasing and setting boundaries, we’re not saying you should always be the person that says no, or have these strict boundaries.

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm.

Nikki Kinzer: All we’re saying is that create a beat of space between the ask and the answer. Is this something that you really want? Is this something that you have capacity for? Is it something you care about? All of those things matter with ADHD.

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: And believing that you can prioritize and that you don’t have to do everything.

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: Really believing that.

Pete Wright: We talk about the pause. You’re kind of leading into the pause, right? Not giving yourself an automatic yes to everything that comes your way. And we’ve talked about that a lot. And I am a huge fan of the pause. And what I’ve realized in myself and my ADHD brain is that there is a real practical problem with that. The pause is often not a deferred decision. It is really kind of a secret way for me to just drop the thinking about the thing. I could say I’ll get back to you on that, and I never get back to you on that. I can say I’m going to think about this, and I don’t ever think about this, because my brain habitually says, okay, you’ve kicked it down the curb enough, maybe everybody’ll forget, and you move on to other things.

Nikki Kinzer: Well, and you don’t care about it.

Pete Wright: Yeah, I don’t care about it.

Nikki Kinzer: It actually… you made the decision.

Pete Wright: Yeah. I did.

Nikki Kinzer: Yeah.

Pete Wright: But that’s what I mean. That’s the thing that becomes the thing I have to learn to recognize better, which is, when am I deferring a thing because I legitimately need to plan my life around it so I can accomplish it? And when am I deferring a thing because I just don’t want to think about it anymore? La la la la la la, I can’t hear you. I can’t see you. Because I often can’t tell the difference in the moment.

Nikki Kinzer: Right.

Pete Wright: I don’t know until weeks pass and I realize, oh, I really regret that I didn’t do something to document that in my life so that I would come back around to it.

Nikki Kinzer: Mm.

Pete Wright: And then I feel the shame and the overwhelm and the, oh my God, how am I going to talk to this person again when I see them? Thank God we live in the same state. I guess I’ll delete their number and block them.

Nikki Kinzer: Does that really happen?

Pete Wright: I’ve never done that. No, I just want to say my head goes there.

Nikki Kinzer: See, you just went to worst case scenario.

Pete Wright: Yeah, look how easy that was. Do you know what I’m saying, though? That is the risk, and I wonder if I’m alone in that experience, because…

Nikki Kinzer: Oh, I don’t think you’re alone, but what I’m hearing and what I’m witnessing is the all-or-nothing thinking. That’s what I’m witnessing. I don’t think you’re alone in feeling that. I think that what you’re feeling is this…

Pete Wright: Well, I’m using defer as a tool to not have a hard conversation.

Nikki Kinzer: Right. But then you’re saying later you’re regretting it.

Pete Wright: Yeah, sometimes.

Nikki Kinzer: And so then what do you do in that situation? You went to the all-or-nothing of, oh, I’ve got to block this person and never see this person again, versus okay, well, what’s a middle ground there? If that happens, well, first of all, you’re aware that this happens now. And so are there situations where it is more likely to happen than others? And can you start to be more aware of that so that you don’t get to a place of regret? Is there a place for you to write it down and remind yourself to follow up with someone?

Pete Wright: Oh yeah, and you know me, I’ve got loads of places to document stuff.

Nikki Kinzer: You have lots of resources, right?

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: So I think it’s just identifying, here is some friction around this pausing. It’s giving me an out, or it’s giving me a way to avoid. All right, well, sometimes that might be fine, because you don’t want to do it, and avoiding it and kicking it down the curb is no big deal. But then other times it’s not. It’s not okay. You do want to follow up.

Pete Wright: Well, and that’s the problem, is that for me, often defer is avoid. That is the truth. That is the absolute truth in my head and heart.

Nikki Kinzer: Yeah.

Pete Wright: Defer is avoid. That’s what it is.

Nikki Kinzer: And see, I think that they’re not, because deferred…

Pete Wright: They’re the same thing. And I know they’re practically not the same thing, but to me they absolutely are in the moment.

Nikki Kinzer: Yeah, in the moment. But what I would want to encourage you to be open to is that defer is delay. It is a review later. Right? And so I see this with my members all the time. When we have a due date, when we have a deadline, we’re making those up unless there are real deadlines.

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: So here’s a due date, and it comes to your list, or it comes to your day, and you know that you’re not going to be able to do it. We’re going to defer that. We’re delaying that. We’re putting it into the future. And we’re going to check back in with it at another time.

Pete Wright: Yeah. Right.

Nikki Kinzer: It doesn’t necessarily mean you’re avoiding it. It’s not the same thing all the time. You could use it that way, but again, all-or-nothing thinking is what you’re getting stuck in.

Pete Wright: I know. And I have a real intellectual love for words and their specific meanings, and I have a real emotional desire not to pay attention to that.

Nikki Kinzer: Yes. Right. But that’s what I’m saying, is that I’m catching you in that all-or-nothing.

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: And it doesn’t have to be.

Pete Wright: Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: A defer can be an avoidance, but it can also be just, I’m deferring. I’m going to review it later when I have the capacity.

Pete Wright: Deferring, yeah. Right.

Nikki Kinzer: Now, if you’re avoiding something that actually is important and needs to be done, that’s another conversation.

Pete Wright: Yeah. Sure. It always comes back to, like, taxes, right? If I avoid my taxes right up until I can’t anymore, and then I do them. And that’s fine, because they always get done and they always get done right.

Nikki Kinzer: But what I mean is not just the deadline. What I mean is that when you’re avoiding something, there’s a lot more emotional baggage behind it. You’re probably embarrassed, maybe you haven’t gotten back to that person for a while, or you have to give them disappointing news. There’s a fear around avoidance, not just the urgency of, oh, I have to get this done because it’s April 15th or I’m going to get taxed.

Pete Wright: Mm-hmm. You just said something that made it all clear to me, why I don’t like defer and I have fallen in love with disappoint. Because defer means I have to potentially sit on thinking about something that I don’t want to do. And disappoint means I can disappoint in the moment and I can be done with it forever.

Nikki Kinzer: Mm-hmm.

Pete Wright: Right? If I’m more clear about what I want to do and how it aligns with my values and the tasks that are going to be appropriate to me, I can say, you know what? I can’t do that. I just know that I’m not the right person.

Nikki Kinzer: Right.

Pete Wright: This is not the right bucket of tasks for me to take on. It’s going to disappoint all of us if I don’t disappoint you right now. Otherwise I could say, oh, let me look at my schedule and my capacity and see how that fits in, even though I know in the moment…

Nikki Kinzer: Really?

Pete Wright: But I know in my heart of hearts, I’m not going to be able to take this on. I have so many examples of those things floating around in my head. The better I get at disappointing in the moment…

Nikki Kinzer: In the moment, then you have less to defer to, less that you’re having to look at.

Pete Wright: The more freedom I have to… yeah, exactly.

Nikki Kinzer: Yeah.

Pete Wright: Exactly. That’s the real issue.

Nikki Kinzer: I get that.

Pete Wright: That’s the real nuance for me. Because I think the risk is just the way my ADHD brain works. What I’ve had to learn is to disappoint in the moment, so I don’t have to worry about writing it down, thinking about it later, getting back to someone. It’s either a yes or it’s a no.

Nikki Kinzer: Right. Good stuff.

Pete Wright: Well, is it? I don’t know. That was therapy for Pete. Awesome. You have another present.

Nikki Kinzer: We have a couple of presents. And it’s funny, because we did a particular new download for this particular show. It’s a way to catch the but I have to the next time it comes out of your mouth. So it’s using your voice instead of ours. It’s helping you think about your own relationship with what you feel like you have to do, and then some examples of some reframes, which will also of course be located in our show notes.

But we also just put a new download on our website that I wanted to mention on the show, because it is very specific to what we’re talking about today. And it’s called The Three Reasons Everything Feels Urgent with ADHD and What to Do First. So it does go a little bit deeper into the actual prioritizing of things. But because we talked about it today and it’s brand new, I just wanted people to know about it. You can find it in the show notes, but you can also find it on our website as well. So check that out.

Pete Wright: Absolutely. Okay. Definitely check that out. Direct links to those resources will be in the show notes. Thank you, everybody, for hanging out and talking about this stuff. Members in the chat room, so appreciate you guys being so chatty. I can’t wait to talk to you directly after we’re done here. Thank you, listeners, for your time and attention. We appreciate everything that you do to share the show and to help us grow. Stronger together.

Don’t forget, if you have something to contribute to the conversation, we’re headed over to the Show Talk channel in the Discord server, and you can join us right there by becoming a supporting member at the Deluxe level or better. On behalf of Nikki Kinzer, I’m Pete Wright, and we’ll see you right back here next week on Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast.