Mandy Kaplan:
Hello everybody, and welcome to Make Me a Nerd. I’m Mandy Kaplan, a mainstream mom whose mission it is to explore the world of nerd culture that I’ve been missing out on and afraid of my whole life.
If you’re new to the podcast, one of my nerdy friends comes on and tries to get me to love something they’ve always loved. And that is the case today. Y’all, this is a true nerd with qualifications. She brings the receipts. This is a high school science teacher — Casey’s high school science teacher, whom I coached as my friend. She is a proud Trojan and the founder and executive director of the Above the Curve Theater Company here in Los Angeles. It is Erica Cochran.
Erica Cochran:
I bet you don’t get too often a nerd who has a theater background as well, huh?
Mandy Kaplan:
I love that about you. When Casey started school, he said, “Mom, you’re going to love my chemistry teacher. She’s just like us.” And I thought, “Now, that’s odd, because I know nothing about science. It ain’t my thing.” But you are a huge theater nerd.
Erica Cochran:
Absolutely. Well, and it’s funny because when I was telling my husband I was doing this with you, he was like, “Which one’s Mandy?” And he was like, “Is that the one that kind of looks like you?” And I was like, “Yes, yes, that’s the one.”
Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.
Erica Cochran:
Yes, total theater nerd, total science nerd. And I embrace using both parts of your brain, because I think we need more of that in this world.
Mandy Kaplan:
Nerd.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah, you’re right. That’s totally a nerdy thing to say. Wearing it proudly.
Mandy Kaplan:
But it’s so cool. So you chose Ender’s Game. Before we dive into Ender’s Game, the novel by Orson Scott Card, we need to address how this all came to be for you and me.
I told one of my dear friends and former guest on my show, Johnny Lee Jr., proud nerd. Which episodes did he do? Oh, he tried to get me to play Zelda, which I failed at, which is hilarious. And he just did Sailor Moon. He said, “You’re doing Ender’s Game. I love that book, except I hate the author. He’s very problematic.”
Erica Cochran:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
And I didn’t know that. So I Googled, and you Googled. And we had a deep, deep discussion — not really — about whether or not we wanted to still pursue this.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
We came to the decision that for this one situation, we are going to look at the art and not the artist.
Erica Cochran:
Absolutely.
Mandy Kaplan:
Because he is anti-gay rights, which I find to be hurtful and evil at the core of my being, as do you. So I wish that weren’t the case. I wish that wasn’t who he was today, because I know this book influenced and thrilled millions and millions of people.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah. All of the series. I love his writing, and I had no idea, and it always just taints it a little bit. But here we are. We’re going to talk about the work, not the worker, and go from there.
Mandy Kaplan:
Well, I might get in a few jabs.
Erica Cochran:
Fine by me.
Mandy Kaplan:
So that’s our disclaimer. We are here to talk about Ender’s Game, the novel. Can you do an elevator pitch of this book for those who are listening who don’t know it, as I did not?
Erica Cochran:
Sure. So it’s set in the future on Earth when we have been invaded by aliens, and they are trying to figure out how to beat the aliens. And the way they’re doing it is using the brilliance of young children to train their new military geniuses. So that’s kind of where it starts. It centers around one kid’s journey through this process and the hope for all mankind.
Mandy Kaplan:
Perfect. You got an A.
Erica Cochran:
Oh, yay. Those are important to me.
Mandy Kaplan:
When was it written, and when was it set? Do we know these things?
Erica Cochran:
Oh, you know what?
Mandy Kaplan:
It was written in the early 80s, right?
Erica Cochran:
Early 80s, I think so, that sounds right. At least the first one.
Mandy Kaplan:
That sounds right. And do we know when it was set?
Erica Cochran:
I don’t know if they ever reference a specific year, to be honest, but I’m sure it’s set in the future.
Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.
Erica Cochran:
Or if it’s not set in the future, then it’s like a different timeline than what we’re on.
Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah, I mean, they definitely wrote it to be a futuristic book.
Erica Cochran:
Yes.
Mandy Kaplan:
However, now we’re living in what feels like that time. This guy is crazy prescient.
Erica Cochran:
Yes, exactly.
Mandy Kaplan:
I feel like he wrote about things that actually came to be, and I don’t know how he knew that.
Erica Cochran:
Honestly, and I think that’s one of the things that draws me so much to it, is because he did kind of almost predict some of the things to come. And I’m like, wait, well then, what if some of the other ideas that he thought of in these books are true as well? I think that’s what’s so exciting and enticing to me.
Mandy Kaplan:
It was 1985. And is that when you read it, when it came out?
Erica Cochran:
Oh no, I think I was three years old.
Mandy Kaplan:
Oh. End the podcast. End it. No, Mandy, you’re older than me by a lot.
Erica Cochran:
But you look younger than me, so who’s really winning? So there you go.
So I read Ender’s Game — when you asked me that question, I was like, I don’t actually remember, because I don’t have a great memory, but I’m pretty sure it was college. Because that’s when I was living, like, my best nerd life. I had the quintessential nerd engineer boyfriend. I pretty much lived the Big Bang Theory. I’m pretty sure they stalked me, because I was working at Cheesecake Factory, and I lived with four nerds, and I was pursuing my acting career.
Mandy Kaplan:
For real?
Erica Cochran:
Yes, I’m not kidding. I feel like they owe me money.
Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, that’s so great. Because that’s what sparked my whole nerd journey, was the Big Bang Theory.
Erica Cochran:
Oh, that’s so funny. Yeah, no, it’s really my life. I was working at the Cheesecake Factory, and I lived with four nerds that would sit in their own rooms and play World of Warcraft with each other. So I really did live that life. But I’m pretty sure it was that boyfriend that got me to read the first one, because I was never into sci-fi really before that, and I just fell head over heels for it.
Mandy Kaplan:
Okay, and what kind of nerd are you today? How do you satisfy your nerd urges?
Erica Cochran:
I like that new words.
Mandy Kaplan:
I’ll call them nurges. Trademark.
Erica Cochran:
Trademark. I’m a science teacher, so I nerd out a lot in that realm. I teach environmental science and chemistry, so anything that I can do to make it relevant to students, that’s kind of like my big thing. I nerd out a lot in that sense. And I get to help make new curriculum. So that’s one of the ways I nerd out. How else do I nerd out? I don’t know.
Mandy Kaplan:
Are you a video gamer?
Erica Cochran:
Oh no, I’m a mom, so I don’t have time for that kind of stuff.
Mandy Kaplan:
Okay.
Erica Cochran:
But no. I’m an audiobook person now, because I don’t have a lot of time. So I try to get my reading fix via the car.
Mandy Kaplan:
Mm-hmm.
Erica Cochran:
Which is great. So yeah, no video games really. I guess those are my two strong nerd aspects — my teaching world and my reading world.
Mandy Kaplan:
Okay. Well, good to know.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
So you’re in college, you read this, and — was it instantly mind-blown? Give me more. And were there other books of this ilk that you loved?
Erica Cochran:
Oh girl, I could go on. So yes, I totally — I think because of what you said, that there was so much that he kind of predicted. And it made me really think.
One of the things I know we’ll get into — how he embodied, how he envisioned the alien to look. It’s not just, “Oh, a green alien with antennas” or whatever. There was a real reason for what he thought the aliens would look like, and why, and how they operated. I thought that was so fascinating.
Ender’s Game is one book in a wildly long, passionate series. There are side channels where they go off of different characters. They follow Ender into the future. It’s so amazing how many worlds he has found within this, starting with this one world. I did a deep dive, and I’ve reread and re-listened to those again and again and again. Every time, I feel like I get more out of them.
Mandy Kaplan:
Who’s the reader of this one? Do you know the name?
Erica Cochran:
I don’t, so sorry.
Mandy Kaplan:
All right. No, that’s okay. I am a huge audiobook listener as well, so I have certain narrators that get me all hot and bothered.
Erica Cochran:
Part of the reason is because there’s multiple readers. There’s not just one.
Mandy Kaplan:
Sure.
Erica Cochran:
In each of these books, there’s like three or four that kind of do different characters, which is always really fun.
Mandy Kaplan:
Yes. Did you read the foreword or listen to the foreword in the version you had?
Erica Cochran:
I would think so. I’m sure it comes on automatically, right? Listening to the book.
Mandy Kaplan:
Well, depending on — I don’t know if there’s like an original version from ’85 or a newer version. My version is more recent. And I found the foreword fascinating. He unleashes that all of Tolkien’s disciples are just rewriting Tolkien, and that he set out to do something completely different.
On the podcast, I only read one book like that, called Dragonlance, with my guest Simon Petrie. And I kept saying, “It just feels like a Tolkien ripoff.” And he was like, “I know, but it’s so good, and I love it.” So I definitely feel Card’s frustration with the idea of somebody writing something incredible, and then everybody’s just reworking it to death.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
But it sounds like he did that with his own book.
Erica Cochran:
You think so? I don’t know.
Mandy Kaplan:
Well, spin-offs and characters — he was using his own writing just to rework it.
Erica Cochran:
I see what you’re saying. Yes, I can see — I think I wonder sometimes about writers. The story focuses on Ender, but then you get introduced to Bean, and you start to learn a little bit about him. Ender’s Shadow is about Bean’s story. So sometimes I wonder if, when someone is writing, if they accidentally identify with another character. Was it always planned that you were going to have this incredible side tangent with Bean? Was that always there?
I always wonder that. How much of this was in your head before you started, and how much of this comes into your mind while you’re writing it? I think that’s so fascinating. Because I do think that’s part of it — people bit on Ender’s Game, and I think people wanted more. They wanted “what’s next?” And there’s so much — you can see at the end of the book that it leads you into, okay, well then what happens? You know, there’s this huge thing that happens.
So I always wonder, where does the writer find that? Is it always there? I don’t know.
Mandy Kaplan:
I don’t know. I think, as a writer myself, a lot of it comes out as happy accidents.
Erica Cochran:
Uh.
Mandy Kaplan:
Or you write yourself into a corner, and then you have to figure your way out, and that turns into something totally different and gives you a new world to explore. I admire that he could keep going with this world.
Erica Cochran:
Yes. And into the future.
Mandy Kaplan:
Very cool.
Erica Cochran:
Oh man. I hope you read some more of this series, because it gets more and more fascinating.
Mandy Kaplan:
That remains to be seen until the end of the episode.
Erica Cochran:
True.
Mandy Kaplan:
In this intro, he says it’s about gifted children who are trained to fight in adult wars. Which makes me immediately think Hunger Games. But Hunger Games does not cite this as an influence at all. I did record an episode about the actual influence of Hunger Games, Battle Royale. Do you know what this is?
Erica Cochran:
I don’t know.
Mandy Kaplan:
So this episode is already recorded. It’ll come out before yours, with Jimmy Aquino, super nerd. It’s this Japanese movie where kids are sent to an island to kill each other, and only the winner survives. And it really is quite similar to Hunger Games.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
There are lots of influences on Hunger Games. It does not take away from its brilliance, but I just think it’s interesting that she doesn’t cite any of those.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah. Maybe she’s afraid she’ll get copyright infringed or something.
Mandy Kaplan:
Well, there are accusations about Battle Royale, about it just being a lift.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
So when we meet Ender and his terrifying brother and wonderful sister, Peter and Valentine, it feels like a relatable kid’s story, with a bully of a brother. It just starts off pretty relatable. We’ve all experienced a bad day at school, or our brother picking on us.
Erica Cochran:
Yes. Although this is a little extreme. But Peter’s real scary in the beginning.
Mandy Kaplan:
Yes, he is. And then they remove the monitor from Ender, and it’s like, what’s happening?
So the monitor, as best I could glean — and please know, I read every word of this book carefully, I did no skimming, but I still don’t understand most of it — so he has a chip in his brain, or in the back of his brain, that the government puts there to test these kids.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah, so it’s, I think, exactly what it sounds like, where this is a monitor in his brain so it can track all of his brain activities and what’s going on. But it also sees and hears everything that he goes through. So that’s why the monitor is a little bit of a protection against the bully, because they know that the IF is watching and listening. So while he has that in, everybody knows he’s watching. Everyone knows he’s being evaluated to see if he’s the next gifted child that gets to go up and help the International Fleet. But it also is a little bit of a safeguard.
Mandy Kaplan:
If I had the monitor, it would just be different kinds of cheese all the time. The government would just be watching me think about cheese.
Erica Cochran:
So the good news is that they’d take the monitor out real quick.
Mandy Kaplan:
And different uses for it.
Erica Cochran:
So it wouldn’t get as embedded in their brain.
Mandy Kaplan:
Real quick.
Erica Cochran:
Because I think that’s what’s so painful when they rip out the monitor, is that it was very enmeshed in his brain, because he had it for so long.
Mandy Kaplan:
And that’s why he gets beaten up, and he goes to town and rips the face off the bully, because now there’s no witnesses, is what you’re saying.
Erica Cochran:
Exactly. And interestingly enough, that was the test. We need to see how he fares when he thinks adults aren’t going to save him.
Mandy Kaplan:
Okay, now you’re saying “we,” and I want to ask you about that.
Erica Cochran:
“We need to know.” Yes.
Mandy Kaplan:
The chapters start in a different font, which you wouldn’t know because you were listening.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
And I equated it to Waldorf and Statler on The Muppets, because that’s where my brain goes. But it seems to be two people watching everything and commenting on it, criticizing it, questioning it. Were those the same people throughout the book?
Erica Cochran:
I think so. I think it’s Graff and Anderson for the most part. There’s a few other players, but I think it’s mostly Graff and Anderson.
Mandy Kaplan:
I couldn’t wrap my brain around it. And it’s a great scary device — “Oh, these kids are being watched, and oh my God, these people are talking about the end of the world and the war coming and they’re going to use these kids.” And I loved each chapter starting with that.
But then I have to say, a bunch of chapters in, it felt really redundant. I felt they were having the same argument over and over. “Could Ender be the one?” “No, he’s not the one.” “I think he’s the one.” “Prove it.” “Well, he’s the one.” I wanted more from them.
Erica Cochran:
No, you’re not alone, thinking back. Well, in the audio, it’s two different voices, so it’s a little more distinct about who is what. So that is part of that too. But yeah, I agree that it is the same thing over and over again.
One can only assume that the writer’s trying to emphasize that it’s Ender or nothing in a lot of ways, and that’s why they keep having the same conversation — that either Ender fixes everything, or humankind is over. But yes, I do agree that that was a little redundant.
Mandy Kaplan:
So it might be a conversation worth having a few times.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
I see your point. Okay, game, set, match Cochran on that one.
Graff, who is this career soldier higher up —
Erica Cochran:
Mm-hmm.
Mandy Kaplan:
— comes to Ender’s home and says, “We want to take Ender away forever.” And — oh, I forgot to mention — Ender is a third child.
Erica Cochran:
Yes.
Mandy Kaplan:
And this is the big deal. This exists in the world where governments try to limit how many children you can have.
Erica Cochran:
Uh-huh.
Mandy Kaplan:
But third children are not really allowed, and you have to ask special permission to have a third child.
Erica Cochran:
Correct. There’s very tight population control, and they commissioned the parents to have Ender, because Peter was too violent and aggressive, and Valentine was too kind and empathetic. They were hoping that the third one would be somewhere in the middle.
By the way — oh, I was just going to say, we have to address his name. Because his name is not Ender. His name is Andrew.
Mandy Kaplan:
Do we know why? Yeah, Andrew.
Erica Cochran:
And the reason they call him Ender is because Valentine couldn’t say “Andrew” when she was little. And so “Ender” is kind of what came out. But I think it’s poignant for what he becomes in the end that that is his name. And I’m sure that was purposeful.
Mandy Kaplan:
Why is the government so hot for this family that they would say, “Peter was not it, Valentine wasn’t it, go ahead and have another kid”?
Erica Cochran:
That’s a great question. I don’t think it’s something addressed. I assumed they must do intelligence tests to every kid that is born. And so that’s kind of the first rigor that they have to pass. And so Peter did. And then when he was too aggressive, they’re like, “Okay.” And they were already allowed to have Valentine, so they tested her too. I think it’s because of their significant intelligence — and that comes into play later too, how smart they are.
Mandy Kaplan:
I know.
Erica Cochran:
I think that’s why they were chosen and requested to have a third — probably really told to have a third.
Mandy Kaplan:
Right. Because we don’t get to know the parents, so we don’t know if the parents are geniuses.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah, they’re not. And it doesn’t sound like it, because when Valentine gets upset about her dad later in the story, when he’s reading some online articles, and she feels like he’s kind of like a bozo for believing this particular character. They don’t reflect that the parents are particularly intelligent.
Mandy Kaplan:
Okay, so you said online news articles.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah, I don’t know how much we want to go in early.
Mandy Kaplan:
We’re all over the place. I would love to have a plan, but I don’t.
So they are using essentially iPads, or desks that project. This is the kind of thing that today is no big deal. We all have them.
Erica Cochran:
Right.
Mandy Kaplan:
But in 1985, he calls them “the nets.” These characters are going on the nets to get their news, or the nets to communicate to each other and send messages and play video games.
Erica Cochran:
Yep. You’re so right, because we didn’t have that back then. I mean, we barely — when did AOL come into existence? The 90s?
Mandy Kaplan:
I was in college in ’92. By the time I was a sophomore or a junior, I think, we were told, “You can go set up an email account in the computer lab.” And I barely knew what that was.
Erica Cochran:
Right.
Mandy Kaplan:
So this was ten years before, or around that.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah. Wow, that’s wild.
Mandy Kaplan:
I don’t have more background on that, except to say, wow, that he created these ideas.
Erica Cochran:
Truly.
Mandy Kaplan:
I’m sure they were in the works. Wasn’t the internet actually invented in the 60s or 70s or something? This existed, but not in the way where he imagined it exactly how it is today.
Erica Cochran:
Yes, it’s wild.
Mandy Kaplan:
I had to keep reminding myself that the nets were the internet before the internet was a thing.
Erica Cochran:
Weren’t a thing. Yeah. I forgot about that. I didn’t even put that together. Wow, that’s crazy.
Mandy Kaplan:
God, it must suck when you’re a third child and all your friends are reading this book, and they’re like, making fun of you because you’re —
Erica Cochran:
Right.
Mandy Kaplan:
I mean, third children are really looked down upon in this world.
Erica Cochran:
Yes, very much so. It’s very passé. He touched a little bit on how both of the parents were religious, and both had to kind of give up their religion — and also what those religions would normally want, which is more kids, or whatever — to fit into society and to norms. So I thought that was interesting that he kind of threw that in just a little bit.
Mandy Kaplan:
And I don’t want to dwell on the negativity about Orson Scott Card, but he is a lifelong Mormon.
Erica Cochran:
Uh-huh.
Mandy Kaplan:
The Mormons funded the anti-gay-marriage legislation in California, and he was a very prominent figure trying to prevent gay marriage. ‘Cause, you know how many people gay marriage kills every year.
Erica Cochran:
Right, a lot, so many.
Mandy Kaplan:
But I find it fascinating that in this book, he does have a deep observation at the end. Like, he is questioning religion a lot in this book.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah. And that’s why it surprised me, that when you told me that, because that’s not what I would have expected.
Mandy Kaplan:
Right. This is your knowledge of him.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
So when Ender goes away into outer space to be trained, I kept having to remind myself — and the book does a nice job of reminding us — he’s six years old when he is taken from his home.
Erica Cochran:
Six, I know.
Mandy Kaplan:
And his goodbye with Valentine just — I mean, it was so heartbreaking.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah. Rip your heart out.
Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah, but his family knows this is the right thing for mankind, and he knows at age six this is the right thing for mankind. I have some questions about him being written not really as a six-year-old, but it was heartbreaking.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
And putting this little kid in this grown-up military world — I mean, they’re all kids, the soldiers are kids, but they’re all older, and cruel, and there’s hazing.
On page 59, he’s playing a game against a big kid.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
And it says his hands were too small on the controls. And that just broke my little heart to think —
Erica Cochran:
I know.
Mandy Kaplan:
You know, he’s six years old trying to be a soldier.
Erica Cochran:
Well, and I think that’s part of it too — I wouldn’t write off humans doing this. I could see, you know, and maybe some countries do do this. They recruit very young, and they brainwash very young. And it’s so sad. And I think it’s extra sad because it’s based in reality.
Mandy Kaplan:
Right. While we’re going there, Scientology can make you a doctor of the Sea Org by, like, eight. You’re the doctor.
Erica Cochran:
Awesome.
Mandy Kaplan:
Yep.
Erica Cochran:
No comment.
Mandy Kaplan:
I have a little stress test I want to give you when this is all over.
Erica Cochran:
Okay.
Mandy Kaplan:
It’s really cool. You’ll hold these cans. It’s awesome.
Erica Cochran:
Perfect.
Mandy Kaplan:
So I’m wondering why a lot of these stories seem to be about kids. And now I’m thinking Hunger Games, Battle Royale, this. So many of them are about kids.
Some of my observations are, well, because kids don’t have a say in the matter, and then we can just root for them. Whereas if it’s a militaristic, angry dude who says, “I’m going to go kill all the buggers and save the world,” it’s not as sympathetic.
Erica Cochran:
A hundred percent. I think that’s a big part of it. And one of the reasons I think they use kids in this particular example is because they say, like, “You guys think faster. We’ve already learned all the things at our age. You guys are the ones who are going to come up with new things.”
So that’s part of it too. But I think that innocence plays a big part — a really big part. Especially once we get to the end and you see what happens, you’re devastated for Ender. And you wouldn’t be if it was just some evil tyrant.
Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah. And this is a book that people read very young. So kids love reading about kids in perilous or adult situations, and imagining them in their shoes.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
But I think that that makes this story so much more gripping and moving, because it’s all children and they are pawns.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
These adults are just treating them as if they’re disposable at some points.
Erica Cochran:
Mm-hmm. And also — a reference to Hunger Games, like Rue. The smallness of some of these kids, the fact that you can’t really do that with adults. You can’t be like, “Oh, there’s such a size difference, and there’s such emotional maturity difference.” But with kids, you can. And you can really make a certain kid look extra vulnerable just by being two years younger. 31 and 33 is the same thing, but 6 and 8 is wildly different.
Mandy Kaplan:
That’s a great point. You can use those details to explain characters, and everybody can picture it.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah. Even when they talk about Petra, how she walks around naked just like the boys do, or whatever — but she’s a girl. But because she’s young, she hasn’t blossomed, so she kind of looks the same. But then Bonzo still made her put clothes on. Little things like that you can’t do to adults. They do look very different.
Mandy Kaplan:
Right. So he’s living in outer space at the battleship center — I don’t know what to call it.
Erica Cochran:
Battle School. Battle School.
Mandy Kaplan:
Battle School. There you go. I was going to call it maybe, like, the Northridge Mall.
We get to meet lots of different soldiers in training at various points in their training, and of course, they all resent Ender because he’s the newest and the best.
Erica Cochran:
Mm-hmm.
Mandy Kaplan:
Instantly. One of my criticisms of this book, and of a lot of stuff I read and watch, is when our hero is always one step ahead of everybody else, and always the smartest in the room, and never makes a mistake. I wish that didn’t exist in this book. I wish Ender were more vulnerable and that we got to see him struggle, or fall behind because of his own youth or innocence or bad judgment.
Erica Cochran:
Mm-hmm. Yes and no. So — Ender’s Shadow, it turns out Ender’s actually not the smartest person in the room. Bean is the smartest person in the room. And you won’t know that from the Ender series, but Bean is actually the smartest person to ever exist.
Mandy Kaplan:
Right.
Erica Cochran:
Like actually. And there’s reasons why. But obviously, this didn’t focus on that.
But yes, I feel like there were moments where we could have leaned into, you know, when he realizes, “Man, I’m just picking on Bean for no reason. I’m doing exactly what they did to me. I’m picking on him because he’s the small young one, and I’m setting him apart just like they made me do. They set me apart, and that’s why I have no friends. And I’m doing that to Bean. Why am I doing that?”
And so I’m glad that he acknowledged that he was doing that. But I wish — I think kind of what you were asking is, like, have that moment with Bean. Say, “I’m sorry, I shouldn’t have done that.” I understand the conversation that he had with himself, why he didn’t. He was like, “I have to make Bean strong, like I was made strong.”
Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.
Erica Cochran:
He kind of military-logics his way out of it. So yes, I would have liked for those to be leaned into — because he did make mistakes, but he made those mistakes purposeful, I guess.
Mandy Kaplan:
Right. It’s like John McClane was always one step ahead of this group of terrorists.
Erica Cochran:
Right.
Mandy Kaplan:
Really? They’ve been planning this for many, many years, John McClane.
Erica Cochran:
Right.
Mandy Kaplan:
He outsmarts Bonzo by saying, “I’ll tell everyone you won, then you can say you changed your mind.” And that’s next-level chess moves. And he’s six.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
So to me, it’s a little — I roll my eyes.
Erica Cochran:
It’s hard to buy him. But I think you have to remember that this is, like, the king of Mensa.
Mandy Kaplan:
It’s like —
Erica Cochran:
Right? These aren’t regular kids. These are way above where we were at six years old.
Mandy Kaplan:
Speak for yourself. You don’t know my life.
Erica Cochran:
Fair, fair, fair. One point for you.
But that’s where Peter and Valentine later, when they’re trying to figure out what they should be doing, when they talk about how they’re smarter than all their teachers, and they already know everything that they’re being taught, and they’re not being challenged. And that’s why, maybe, one of the reasons why Peter is the way he is. They are beyond what we could ever fathom.
So I always have to — I think I like that he has them be super smart, but then reminds us, wow, like, he can’t even fit into the clothes because he’s so small. They keep reminding us, this is the abnormal, not the normal.
Mandy Kaplan:
So you brought up Peter and Valentine, and this is about where in the book we actually go back to Earth to visit them. And I want to dive into what they are up to.
After this, Peter and Valentine become basically anonymous bloggers, and their political articles are changing the world.
Erica Cochran:
Mm-hmm.
Mandy Kaplan:
And they’re children. Peter’s 14 and she’s 12 at this point, right?
Erica Cochran:
Yeah, or maybe even younger at the beginning. I can’t remember how old they were when they first start blogging.
Mandy Kaplan:
And their parents don’t know, but their parents are reading their blogs and spewing back their own philosophies to them.
Erica Cochran:
Yes.
Mandy Kaplan:
I so appreciated coming back to Earth and seeing what the family was up to. Because it just is so heartbreaking to separate a kid from their family.
What up, ice? And, you know, so I really appreciated knowing that they were okay, what they were doing.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
They had moved, right?
Erica Cochran:
Yeah, they move because Peter’s not doing great. His kind of murder-esque psychopath vibes are coming out pretty strong, and they thought, well, if we move to the middle of nowhere, maybe nature will help calm him down. And that’s when Valentine finds him cutting open squirrels, and leaving them for dead, and some really horrible stuff.
So it’s pretty clear that Peter hasn’t changed. That the true soul of Peter is still in there. And that’s what Ender was always so scared of. That scary part of Peter, not just, like, big brother bully.
But he — I still don’t know if it’s true or not — he uses that to get Valentine to do what he wants. He says, “I’m worried about this part of me, and the only way I feel like I can rein it in is I need power, I need control. And so I want to take over the world, but, like, in a good way. And I want to keep peace on Earth. Because I see these things happening, and I think that if we do beat the buggers, I think things are going to fall apart, and I think we have to be the ones to fix it, because we’re kind of the only ones smart enough to do it.”
Mandy Kaplan:
That is all stuff he says after he says, “I’m trying to decide whether or not I want to kill you.” I mean, Peter.
Erica Cochran:
It’s wild.
Mandy Kaplan:
Well, yes. And it’s very unsettling and disconcerting. And I kept debating back and forth, well, is he — and then he says, “Well, come on, I was just being a big brother, I wasn’t really going to kill you.” But it leaves a pit in your stomach — his anger and his violent tendencies, that Ender also has.
Erica Cochran:
Yes. And I — you talked about watching the movie, so I did watch the movie last night. But one of the things — I won’t talk much about it unless we’re going to talk about it — Anderson, at one point, says, “It’s your job to, like, use these kids, or whatever, and get your victory. But it’s my job to send them back whole.”
And where is Peter’s therapist? He had a monitor on for a really long time, and it messed with his head in terms of not being the chosen one. So I’m like, where is that? I mean, are we just not talking about it? But I feel like we should.
Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah, I mean, in this world, we don’t know — we only really know this one family on Earth. So we don’t know what the world is truly like. Is therapy not a thing anymore? Does the government only provide it to certain people? It’s very upsetting.
But Peter has a happy ending.
Erica Cochran:
He does.
Mandy Kaplan:
So that’s fantastic. Good for Peter.
Erica Cochran:
Well, and that is one of the poignant things. I think Valentine pointed it out, like, “Here’s the brother that I love that’s a lover that kills, and the brother that I hate that’s a killer that loved.” They really, in a lot of ways, kind of switched roles of what would be predicted for their outcomes. So Peter does — Peter does help save the world.
Mandy Kaplan:
Well said. Well, so does my producer and engineer, Pete Wright.
Because Make Me a Nerd is a production of TruStory FM, engineered by the peerless Pete Wright. Who does not have rage and violence tendencies, I promise. And my theme music is Wonderstruck by Jane in the Boy.
If you are listening on Apple Podcasts, please, please drop a review in there. Five stars. It really helps more people find me and listen to me. And I want to keep staying on this journey as long as I can. And to that end, if you’re feeling like you want me on this journey, please go to makemeanerd.com/join, and hitting that button will get you your episodes ad-free and early, and my eternal gratitude.
Back to our regularly scheduled program.
I think one of the themes of this book — and I didn’t write who said it, but somebody says, “Adults are the enemy, not the other armies. They do not tell us the truth.”
Erica Cochran:
I think it was Dink. But yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, great name. That feels like the ultimate mic drop statement.
Erica Cochran:
Mm-hmm.
Mandy Kaplan:
It perfectly represents the attitude and naivete of youth. Oh, and then Meeker says, “The teachers are the enemy.”
Erica Cochran:
Yep.
Mandy Kaplan:
I can imagine every kid reading this at 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, whatever age, and getting on board with that sentiment.
Erica Cochran:
Yep.
Mandy Kaplan:
And they’re not wrong.
Erica Cochran:
No, I mean, not all teachers.
Mandy Kaplan:
You are the exception. No, no, no.
Erica Cochran:
Of course, yes.
Mandy Kaplan:
No, in this world —
Erica Cochran:
Yes.
Mandy Kaplan:
Their teachers are grooming them for their deaths, and not keeping them informed, and not telling them the truth.
Erica Cochran:
Mm-hmm.
Mandy Kaplan:
I read that, and I just felt that energy of just a rallying cry to the youth.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
As they read it. It was pretty powerful.
Erica Cochran:
And it’s interesting how many of the kids, I think, feel that way and understand that, because I think a decent amount of them do. But they still fight on, because I think they also feel an obligation to save humanity, even though the teachers are the enemy. It’s this weird juxtaposition with themselves. They’re like, “Yes, I think this, but also this. So what do I do?”
Mandy Kaplan:
Well yeah, it’s not mutually exclusive.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
They have this war to win, but they also feel at war with their superiors.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
The technology — he’s playing a lot of video games in the beginning, which I didn’t understand, and the movie helped lay that out for me. Some of it is physical, in the battle rooms, where he’s flying all around.
Erica Cochran:
Yes.
Mandy Kaplan:
And then some of it is just almost like a Minecraft game, where he’s building worlds and fighting enemies in the video game.
Erica Cochran:
Are you talking about the giant?
Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.
Erica Cochran:
So it’s a computer game that changes based on the student’s response. But it’s kind of like a setup game where you can’t win it, and that’s purposeful. They have to struggle with not winning, or something.
But then these things start happening. He figures out ways to cheat the computer game that the teachers don’t even know is possible.
Mandy Kaplan:
Well, it feels a lot like our concerns today with AI potentially going rogue.
Erica Cochran:
Yes.
Mandy Kaplan:
And I found it so prescient. I was just blown away that he thought of this. And it also reminds me of a movie I’ve never seen — 2001: A Space Odyssey. But I know the name HAL from my crossword puzzles.
Erica Cochran:
Well, you think that this level of the computer is interesting — keep on reading the series, because that computer starts to mean a whole lot more down the line.
Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, okay.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
I was confused in the book, and then the movie made it clear. The giant does the same thing that Fezzik does in Princess Bride, where he’s like, “Which cup of poison? Which cup has the poison in it?”
Erica Cochran:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
And then eventually Ender rams the cup into the giant’s eye to kill him.
Erica Cochran:
Uh-huh.
Mandy Kaplan:
Rather — he keeps picking the wrong cup.
Erica Cochran:
He kind of cheats the game, basically.
Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah. I don’t know.
Erica Cochran:
It’s so funny that you found — I guess my brain gave me an idea what that scene looked like, and then when I saw it in the movie, I’m like, that’s not right. So it’s funny that it helped you to see it, and made what was confusing me, like, why is Valentine going over this rubble? I didn’t understand some of it.
Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah, I didn’t quite understand the hologram of Valentine.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
Wasn’t it like a hologram?
Erica Cochran:
Yeah, or like a cartoon character.
Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah. But Graff does go to Earth and recruits Valentine to write a letter to Ender, because Ender is at the end of his rope.
Erica Cochran:
Yes. The second time is when he, like, really starts to go. He’s not pushing himself anymore. It’s almost like he’s lost his reason to keep doing this. And that’s why they get Valentine involved, because she is his reason for everything.
So they figured that out, and Valentine figured it out too and knows that they’re using her. But still, in the end, she wants the end result of him doing well and saving humanity. So she gives them what they want, even though she knows she’s being a pawn. And knows that he’s going to know it too.
Mandy Kaplan:
And he does.
Erica Cochran:
Mm-hmm.
Mandy Kaplan:
‘Cause he’s Ender, and he knows everything.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah. But it was enough. It brought him back into the program where he needed to be, quote-unquote.
Mandy Kaplan:
LOL alert when they make Ender the commander of his own army. And it’s the Dragon Army, because they discontinued that army, but they had a lot of uniforms to use up.
Erica Cochran:
Yes.
Mandy Kaplan:
So they just give them the Dragon Army uniforms. I just thought that was a very funny line in a book with no laughs, that made me laugh.
Petra — she freezes him out and then comes back to him.
Erica Cochran:
What do you mean?
Mandy Kaplan:
Doesn’t she turn on him somewhat, because he’s better than her and he’s getting the advantages?
Erica Cochran:
My interpretation of it, at least, was she kind of thought that he would go light on her, because they are friends. And so she was very upset by that and turned on him, in the sense that, like, she had her little timeout. But she didn’t turn on him like Bonzo turned on him. She was never part of trying to hurt him.
But she did — you’re right. She iced him out a little bit. She cut him off a little bit because she felt really hurt by him not going light on her. And really, he didn’t go light on her, but her team still did better than most of the teams.
Mandy Kaplan:
Right. I just was bummed because she felt like the substitute for Valentine in his life, and I was so happy he had someone like that. And then when she wasn’t —
Erica Cochran:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
By his side — I’m too sensitive for this stuff, Erica. I’m like, “No, Petra, you have to be nice to him. He’s only nine at this point.”
Erica Cochran:
Mm-hmm.
Mandy Kaplan:
It’s crazy to me that three years passed in this book, and we’re still talking about a little child experiencing these horrors.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah. He really does have such a hard childhood. Isolation. He’s basically been isolated for three years. He doesn’t have really any friends. He gets close to someone and then they take him away. He gets close to someone and then they take him away.
So it’s heartbreaking to think — because that’s what childhood is about. It’s all about that kind of stuff. And so he’s denied everything that a normal child would have.
Mandy Kaplan:
Do you like Ender?
Erica Cochran:
I do. I really do. I think the reason I like Ender is because he’s doing everything he can to not be Peter. And I think there’s something so beautiful about the desire to be good.
To throw out another questionable writer — Harry Potter has that same vibe in there, where Harry Potter chooses the right path, and it’s all about the choices that we make, and there’s demons inside all of us. And so the reason I love Ender is because he is Valentine with the capability of being Peter.
And then when he ends up accidentally being Peter, it crushes him. He breaks.
Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah. Let’s talk about that.
There is a scene where Bonzo, the most aggressive of the bullies — command central —
Erica Cochran:
Command School. Hurry up.
Mandy Kaplan:
Why can’t I remember Command School? Why can’t I remember it?
They isolate Ender in the shower. And correct me if I’m wrong, because I reread it and I think I have this right — so obviously Ender is naked because he’s in the shower, and these bullies come in, and they’re going to kick his ass, and Bonzo’s going to teach him a lesson.
Erica Cochran:
Mm-hmm.
Mandy Kaplan:
And Ender says, “It’s not fair. I’m naked and wet.” So Bonzo strips down and gets naked. Do I have that right?
Erica Cochran:
I believe so, yes.
Mandy Kaplan:
You homophobic piece of shit. This is — not you, Erica.
Erica Cochran:
No, no, I know.
Mandy Kaplan:
Oh my god, I adore you. But this is what you’re writing, and then you’re trying to stand against gay rights.
Erica Cochran:
That’s what I’m saying. That’s why it was such a shock to me.
Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, gay much?
So what ends up happening — and by the way, there’s so much fart-eating in this book.
Erica Cochran:
Right. Yes, indeed.
Mandy Kaplan:
“Fart-eater” seems to be a term of endearment and an insult all at once. It’s like the smurf of Ender’s Game.
But he ends up killing Bonzo. He doesn’t know he kills him, but he knows he beats him badly.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
And only finds out, confirms his fears at the end, that he did in fact kill Bonzo.
Erica Cochran:
Right.
Mandy Kaplan:
Why do you think they kept this a secret? They tell him, “Oh no, Bonzo went back home. We let him go.”
Erica Cochran:
I think because they know that he’s Valentine inside. And if he knows he’s Peter, he’s done. He will not be able to continue on if he believes that he’s Peter, because that’s his ultimate fear. That’s why all the things in that game, like, he was scared of the Peter mirrors, because that was him looking in the mirror and seeing Peter. So if he is a killer, then he’s Peter and he’s done. He will be useless to their endeavors.
And the funny thing is — not funny, ha ha, but — they set him up for this, right? They talked about it. They knew Bonzo wanted him dead, and they said, “We have to let him know that nobody’s going to save him, just like when Stilson, or whatever the kid’s name was, when he was a little kid —”
Mandy Kaplan:
Stilson, yeah.
Erica Cochran:
Stilson, thank you. Same thing. He has to know, and we have to see what he does.
And it’s just the same thing that — he made sure to finish all the battles in the future. I think they kept saying that. He ended all — there’s no more battles with Bonzo now. There’s no more battles with Stilson. So they set him up to do this. It’s like, almost like they knew it was going to be one of them, and they took the risk anyway.
You’re taking a 50/50 chance that the kid that you think is, or hoping is, going to save the world is going to survive this. And you go for it anyway. That’s a big risk.
Mandy Kaplan:
I’m having a lot of deep realizations. You are sparking a lot for me, and I’m going to reveal them right after this.
I read this and I took a lot of — as my dear friend Tommy Metz, friend of the show, likes to say, “beeps and boops.” I got a lot of technology. I got a lot of crazy anti-gravity rooms, and a future where we’re fighting aliens. I did not get as much humanity and heart and character and inner turmoil as you are getting. What’s wrong with me?
Erica Cochran:
Well, I think that’s just brains, right? My brain just makes it work. Because some of the things, I’m like, “I didn’t understand the gravity stuff, but” — I’m just like, physics and me, we don’t get along. Yes, I know, I’m a science teacher saying that.
And so I skimmed the technology stuff that didn’t make sense, and I leaned into the humanity side of it, I think, because that’s where my heart is.
Mandy Kaplan:
Yes, mine too.
Erica Cochran:
So I think that just —
Mandy Kaplan:
But are these first-read impressions? Like, had we had this talk when you were in college, would you have been able to say, “He wants to be a Valentine, and he’s so afraid of being a Peter, and they know this about him”? Because I didn’t get all that. And that’s fascinating and meaningful and worth podcasting about. It’s a human story.
Erica Cochran:
I don’t know. Yes, I mean — I have read them multiple times, so — and I have also done a lot of therapy, so maybe I’m seeing these things because I look at life differently. So I don’t know if I had the same, but I don’t think that I would have been as addicted to the series if I didn’t see the humanity of it all.
Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.
Erica Cochran:
Because the technology is overwhelming, and I don’t think I would have leaned in as much if — yes. So my assumption is then, yes, I’ve always saw the humanitarian side of this.
Mandy Kaplan:
That’s great. And that’s a blind spot for me, I guess.
Erica Cochran:
Reread.
Mandy Kaplan:
You know? But you know what?
Erica Cochran:
Reread, you’re fine.
Mandy Kaplan:
I’m reading it and going, “I don’t know if I like this kid.” And meanwhile, you’re feeling his feelings, and in his heart and in his mind. It’s really cool, and you’re making me see so much more than I got from reading it and watching the movie.
Very quickly, what did you think of the movie?
Erica Cochran:
I hate the movie so much. I hate it so much.
Mandy Kaplan:
Okay.
Erica Cochran:
I watched it with my husband last night — again, a rewatch, and it’s been a long time. But I can’t tell you how many times I had to pause it and be like, “That’s not at all what happened. This is actually what happened.” They shoved these ten things together. They took this really important thing out.
I understand that you have to make cuts because there’s so much going on in the book, but — and they added weird things. Like, there was no need for the alien at the end. Just two thumbs down.
Mandy Kaplan:
Okay. I read it took, like, ten years and nine different scripts to get it to this point, which shocked me, because it didn’t feel like it had all that much TLC. Rotten Tomatoes gave it a 63% and a 65%, but it was universally panned. It didn’t make its money back. It looked good, with the anti-gravity stuff, and the battle room. I thought the effects were good. But it was released in 2013, so by then, these things — seeing the internet, whoopty whoopty do.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
You know.
Erica Cochran:
But they also cut out — there was no Locke, there was no Demosthenes. There was no storyline about them at all.
Mandy Kaplan:
That’s true.
Erica Cochran:
They didn’t capture a lot of the humanity. Like, Ender’s relationship with Alai, and eventually Bean, and all these characters. They show it with Petra, but that’s about it. And you’re like, okay.
And also, they make it look like kind of a lover’s situation with Petra. And I’m like, they’re six. That’s not a thing. It was never in the book portrayed as more than a friendship.
Mandy Kaplan:
Right. He’s much older in the movie.
Erica Cochran:
Yes.
Mandy Kaplan:
He’s, like, a 13-year-old actor playing a nondescript age of maybe 11 or 12, right?
Erica Cochran:
Yeah. Exactly.
Mandy Kaplan:
Good actor.
Erica Cochran:
And so — yeah, he was very good.
Mandy Kaplan:
Good actor.
Erica Cochran:
But I felt what is important about the storyline — that humanity — was left out. Even Graff and Mazer, their hidden love and care for Ender did not show up at all in the movie. And so it lost so much of the importance.
Mandy Kaplan:
Let’s talk about the big twist at the end of the book and the movie.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
And why this is called Ender’s Game, I think.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
So they send him into his final test, and “you have to win this test, and then you’ll be ready to lead the command.” Psych?
Erica Cochran:
Just kidding.
Mandy Kaplan:
It’s not a test. They really send this child army.
Erica Cochran:
Mm-hmm.
Mandy Kaplan:
Some of them die. And they are sent in to kill the buggers — this whole race of aliens. And this is where I did get his humanity, because he was so sickened that he took out an entire race and didn’t know he was doing it.
Erica Cochran:
Mm-hmm. Right.
Mandy Kaplan:
That was — I did get a child wrestling with that. But it was a really good twist.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah. And I feel like the book sets it up a lot better than the movie too. I feel like you could see it, that it was maybe a fake-out in the movie. But the book, you really thought this was school. You really thought this was all pretend. And then it’s not.
And the way that the crowd cheers, all the people who are watching his final test — they all cheer. And he’s like, “Why is — you guys are cheering that I passed my test? That’s weird.” And it kind of starts to click, and you just see the devastation, and it’s so heartbreaking.
Can you imagine that pressure on your shoulders? That you wiped out an entire sentient species?
Mandy Kaplan:
Not again. I did it once. It’s exhausting. I don’t want to go through that again.
He does retire, sort of. And he gets reunited with Valentine.
Erica Cochran:
Well, as predicted by Locke and Demosthenes, the world erupts in chaos the second that the formics are dead.
Mandy Kaplan:
And Locke and Demosthenes are the blogger names that Peter and Valentine create, just in case anyone’s thinking you lost your mind.
Erica Cochran:
Yes. Thank you for the clarification. And what’s interesting is Peter plays Locke, who is the actual, like, more level-headed one. And Valentine plays Demosthenes, which is kind of like a radicalist, extremist. So they’re not fitting their characters. But that was purposeful, because Peter wanted to rule the world as Locke, as the good person in the long run. He knew Demosthenes was just like a placeholder.
But anyway, as predicted, the world erupts in chaos. There’s war. There’s war on their little formic island, even, where they’re staying. And so he basically sleeps for, like, days, and kind of wakes up, and things are settled. And they’re like, “Okay, so this guy named Locke has calmed things down. We’ve got things steady on Earth, and these are some things going on, and so we should be able to go home soon.”
And so slowly, the kids start to go home, and Ender doesn’t. And he finally realizes they’re never going to send him home.
But luckily — and again, the book had this, and the movie did not — Valentine comes up to him and is like, “Hey, I —”
Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, okay.
Erica Cochran:
“I’m here. It’s me and you, bro. Your brother wants you back on the mainland to use you as a puppet. You’ve played a puppet your whole life. No more puppets for you. Let’s go off and just be. Let’s go start this colony on this other island.”
And that’s kind of one of the things that, ironically, we’ve killed off all this alien species, and now we’re going to go steal their homes, because they’re all dead.
Mandy Kaplan:
Right.
Erica Cochran:
And all their homes are viable for humans. So now the thirds can have a life. We don’t have to kill the thirds anymore, or whatever they did with the thirds.
And he is not sure if he wants to do that, but he eventually says yes. And I know, for me, that’s, like, a happy moment. He gets reunited with Valentine, and she gets to be with a brother she really loves.
Mandy Kaplan:
Right.
Erica Cochran:
So — I don’t know if they really establish how many years go by, but they go to this —
Mandy Kaplan:
The Speaker for the Dead is the book he writes.
Erica Cochran:
I keep trying to say “island,” but it’s a planet.
Mandy Kaplan:
It’s a planet.
Erica Cochran:
It’s a whole planet. They go to this planet and they set up shop.
Mandy Kaplan:
It’s Planet Fitness.
Erica Cochran:
They set up shop, and he is kind of governor for a while, but eventually he’s just the name.
And they are going to send another colony from Earth, so he has to go scouting for somewhere that’s far enough away that they can trade, but not so close that they’re going to get in each other’s way. And he starts doing this, and he finds the dead giant’s body from the game.
And he’s like, “What? How is this even possible? That was in a game in my head.”
And so he starts to put two and two together, that the formics built this for him. That the formics were in his head. And they don’t know how to communicate with us. So this is the only person they’ve ever been able to connect to.
And what you’ll learn in later books, if you do read it, is that the computer is the way that they were able to connect.
Mandy Kaplan:
Oh, okay.
Erica Cochran:
It was literally the computer. So they try to get a message to him by re-creating this computer game simulation. And so he finds a queen — a pupa of a future queen there. And somehow the queen is able to telepathically tell him, “Listen, we didn’t know you were sentient. We thought it was kind of like us, where everyone’s a robot. And so we didn’t know. And now we know, and we’re not coming back. But it’s too late. You’re coming to kill us. This is our last hope. Any chance you want to take us around the universe and find us a place to live, maybe?”
Mandy Kaplan:
Mm-hmm.
Erica Cochran:
And of course, of course he does, because he’s devastated about the xenocide that he created.
Mandy Kaplan:
So Speaker for the Dead — he does write that book. Am I crazy?
Erica Cochran:
Yes, sorry, yes.
Mandy Kaplan:
No, that’s okay, because a lot of what you said I didn’t comprehend as I read it.
Erica Cochran:
So the reason he writes The Speaker for the Dead is because he has spoken to, or communicated with, the queen. And so he writes the story of the formics from the formics’ perspective. And that is very important, because it completely changes how people feel about Ender.
And this is kind of future-tripping a little bit, but Ender was the savior of the world. That’s how humanity sees him. And in later Ender’s — not the savior of the world. He’s the destroyer of a sentient species. And so his own book turns how people feel about him in the future.
And then a really cool moment too is, this book is not, like, super-read by everyone. It’s almost like a scholarly read. But Speaker for the Dead becomes a thing. And then his own brother asks him to be the Speaker for the Dead for him. Full circle, this kid who kind of destroyed his life and was like his worst nightmare, asks him, “Hey, can you look at — tell my real story, like the goods and the bads? Will you tell my story?”
And that’s a really cool moment for them to kind of wrap up their trauma in their family, I feel like.
Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah. One thing I wrote that I don’t know if I’m on to something — when Speaker for the Dead does become a book, it becomes a religion.
Erica Cochran:
Yes.
Mandy Kaplan:
And that to me felt like a defense of the Book of Mormon. This story of Joseph and meeting God, and it all sounds like poppycock, but Mormons believe it’s real. Mormons believe this happened.
Erica Cochran:
Right.
Mandy Kaplan:
And I felt like it was some kind of statement, like, almost like he was saying, “See, I can make a religion from a sci-fi book.” I don’t know. It just —
Erica Cochran:
I see the overlap there.
Mandy Kaplan:
Okay, I might be touching —
Erica Cochran:
In some ways, I’m like, are you trying to reinforce that what you’ve got going on is real? Or are you trying to realize — trying to say that anyone can make up a religion?
Mandy Kaplan:
That’s what I was thinking.
Erica Cochran:
So yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
I thought it was the latter, because I thought at this point maybe he was forsaking being a Mormon, and he wanted to write science fiction and all sorts of other fun stuff.
Erica Cochran:
Right.
Mandy Kaplan:
And then, you know, 30 years after he wrote the book, he’s helping take down the people I love. Okay.
Erica Cochran:
I guess it got beaten out of him.
Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah. Did we get to everything? Do you want to wrap up by just saying what you love about this book? Why, when I said to you, “Hey, you’re a nerd, what do you want to talk about?” — this was what you came up with pretty quickly, and I had never heard of it.
Erica Cochran:
That’s wild to me. But yes, it’s a very nerd, nerd-world book, I guess, maybe.
I think it just is a beautiful way, if you are at all interested in a perspective of how aliens might be. This is the beginning of a journey, because there’s a lot more that goes in in the future. So that’s part of it. And the technology, the futuristic stuff, like you said.
But really, there’s so much humanity in there that if you really, really look at it, there’s a lot of self-reflection that you can do. Talking about those demons inside us, and who we see in the mirror, and who we could be, and who we are afraid of being. I think there’s a lot in there.
Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah. Who we’re destined to be, and nurture versus nature.
Erica Cochran:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
So I will say — I really enjoyed the setup. And then it — I got very muddled, as you could tell by my trying to reference things and being like, “Oh, whatever. It wasn’t a mall.”
I would say I liked it. I didn’t love it. I wasn’t immediately entranced by it. But talking to you about it made me like it a lot more, because of the human dynamics you’re bringing to it. So I really appreciate that. And now it does feel like, “Huh, there’s so much in there that I didn’t see, or that I missed.” And I did get hung up on, “I don’t get it. Is this a video game, or is this real?”
Erica Cochran:
Yeah.
Mandy Kaplan:
So thank you for really making it so much more meaningful than I thought.
Erica Cochran:
Oh, well, I am happy that I was able to find another person that at least liked it. And hopefully some listeners will fall in love with it like I do. Because I truly love the series. I could re-listen to it over and over again. Makes me think more and more every time I do. So I don’t know, maybe give another book a chance.
Mandy Kaplan:
Okay. For me, that’s Valley of the Dolls. Okay.
Everybody, thank you so, so much for coming on the podcast. And everybody should follow Above the Curve on Instagram to see what you guys are up to next. And is that accurate?
Erica Cochran:
Yes, absolutely.
Mandy Kaplan:
Yeah.
Erica Cochran:
Thank you for having me. This is my first podcast, so hopefully I didn’t talk too much.
Mandy Kaplan:
Not at all, you were wonderful.
Erica Cochran:
And then, you know, maybe you can be — we’re doing a musical next. A brand-new musical. So you’ll probably be hearing from me to audition.
Mandy Kaplan:
You don’t say.
Erica Cochran:
What you doing in October?
Mandy Kaplan:
Hmm, let me think.
Well, thank you, thank you, thank you. And thank you all for listening. Until next time.
